Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Forgive me Pogue Eile, but the above looks very like you're saying it took Liam Sheedy 3 years to earn success in Tipp. Can you clarify please?

No need to seek forgiveness, I love a nice patronising tone, suits you!

When Liam Sheedy took over Tipperary he was given a 3 year term to win an AI, he delivered but it took the full 3 years, ditto with English.

Sucess is realtive to the stated goals at the begining of the term. All of Sheedy's success upto the AI final in 2010 would have meant nothing and his tenure would have been a failure if he didnt get over the line in 2010.

Anyway this is veering off topic, I'll put the question to you so - who should replace Fanning and what players should go with him?

mountgomery burns

I'm sure he had goals for year 1 also, and I'm sure there was a minimum standard he had to meet to keep his job.

If it's in Waterford Queally or Hartley seem the most suitable candidates, but it'd depend on the background team they put in place and the plan they present. I think players input is important, but rather than ask them who they want ask the entire outgoing panel what they would want in a manager and factor that into considerations when looking for the new manager. The reality is not many managers all Ireland winning managers exist that are available, I would say someone with a good record with club teams should be the target be that inside or outside the county.

As for players, there's a few who certainly could lose their place in the team next year but there's only one I'd drop from the panel that played much this year. Being that it's only one, don't really want to be calling out one player. I will say though that it is not Austin Gleeson, just in case anyone gets that idea.

PTH2009

I think the CB need to ask questions as to how a reasonable league campaign turned into a farce of a championship one after a foreign training trip. We were ****ing horrendous and made a show of ourselves at home after all the excitement about playing in Walsh Park. I remember someting posted here in Feb/March saying the camp were In great spirits

cul beag

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I'm sure he had goals for year 1 also, and I'm sure there was a minimum standard he had to meet to keep his job.

If it's in Waterford Queally or Hartley seem the most suitable candidates, but it'd depend on the background team they put in place and the plan they present. I think players input is important, but rather than ask them who they want ask the entire outgoing panel what they would want in a manager and factor that into considerations when looking for the new manager. The reality is not many managers all Ireland winning managers exist that are available, I would say someone with a good record with club teams should be the target be that inside or outside the county.

As for players, there's a few who certainly could lose their place in the team next year but there's only one I'd drop from the panel that played much this year. Being that it's only one, don't really want to be calling out one player. I will say though that it is not Austin Gleeson, just in case anyone gets that idea.

Flynners
Ken
Tony Browne
Liam Chuck O Connor
Dave Bennett

Why not approach some of these lads and ask them to come on board. A wealth of experience and knowledge between any of them and would definitely add to the current set up.

Jayesdiem

cul beag wrote: »

Flynners
Ken
Tony Browne
Liam Chuck O Connor
Dave Bennett

Why not approach some of these lads and ask them to come on board. A wealth of experience and knowledge between any of them and would definitely add to the current set up.

Because if and when things go pear-shaped, entitled players and supporters will turn the gun on them. Why would any of them want to? They likely have sanity and family lives to protect.

mountgomery burns

cul beag wrote: »

Flynners
Ken
Tony Browne
Liam Chuck O Connor
Dave Bennett

Why not approach some of these lads and ask them to come on board. A wealth of experience and knowledge between any of them and would definitely add to the current set up.

If the manager stays the very least you would hope is that there are additions/changes to the backroom team.

Watched the two semis v Kilkenny from 2016 last night, holy god the difference in intensity to this year is unbelievable. We definitely weren't nearly fit enough this year.

BazBox

mountgomery burns wrote: »

If the manager stays the very least you would hope is that there are additions/changes to the backroom team.

Watched the two semis v Kilkenny from 2016 last night, holy god the difference in intensity to this year is unbelievable. We definitely weren't nearly fit enough this year.

I watched the 2016 replay recently myself, a real sickener at the end you could see the players were devastated. Even watching Derek in the post match interview I thought he was going to start crying. Although watching Tipp in the final that year I fear we would have been in for a tough day if we got there.

Royal Legend

mountgomery burns wrote: »

If the manager stays the very least you would hope is that there are additions/changes to the backroom team.

Watched the two semis v Kilkenny from 2016 last night, holy god the difference in intensity to this year is unbelievable. We definitely weren't nearly fit enough this year.

Who was the physical trainer this year?

Motivator

Royal Legend wrote: »

Who was the physical trainer this year?

Stephen Barrett the team nutritionist. Gary Walsh was the S&C coach when Derek was there and had the team as fit as any in the country but wasn’t involved this year. I thought physically the lads were miles behind where they should have been this year.

PTH2009

Relatively quite the next few weekends in the club scene. Few intermediate and Junior Hurling club Championship games here and there. Senior football championship resumes the weekend of the 12/13/14th July

mountgomery burns

Motivator wrote: »

Stephen Barrett the team nutritionist. Gary Walsh was the S&C coach when Derek was there and had the team as fit as any in the country but wasn’t involved this year. I thought physically the lads were miles behind where they should have been this year.

What was Fergal O Brien's role with the team under Derek? Agree entirely, from the outside it looked that way

PTH2009

Could we have a repeat of the Cork saga in the early 2000s and the senior hurlers will go on strike in protest of the management team ???

IanVW

PTH2009 wrote: »

Could we have a repeat of the Cork saga in the early 2000s and the senior hurlers will go on strike in protest of the management team ???

No ff

DeiseDawg

IanVW wrote: »

No ff

NO.
And if we change manager and he doesn't suit some people, do you suggest they strike again and again.
If certain players don't like management, it's simple - withdraw, and allow those who value the county jersey, play.

On a different note, Davy Fitz has now won Munster, Leinster, all-ireland, league and fitzgibbon as manager. Must be a first. Well done Davy.

PTH2009

DeiseDawg wrote: »

NO.
And if we change manager and he doesn't suit some people, do you suggest they strike again and again.
If certain players don't like management, it's simple - withdraw, and allow those who value the county jersey, play.

On a different note, Davy Fitz has now won Munster, Leinster, all-ireland, league and fitzgibbon as manager. Must be a first. Well done Davy.

Yeah great record for Davy love or hate him

Really hits home seeing the celebrations of neighbouring counties and us sitting there for another year. Going to be the same in 2020 unless we improve massively

paddy13

PTH2009 wrote: »

Yeah great record for Davy love or hate him

Really hits home seeing the celebrations of neighbouring counties and us sitting there for another year. Going to be the same in 2020 unless we improve massively

Ya look great to see Wexford back passion they bring but from our perspective very disheartening as hard to see us get of Munster next year. Hopefully we can bounce back though hard to see it.

paddy13

PTH2009 wrote: »

Could we have a repeat of the Cork saga in the early 2000s and the senior hurlers will go on strike in protest of the management team ???

That Cork team had already won a few All Ireland's our bunch have won nothing to command that level of authority.

Mastermcgrath

Hard to begrudge Wexford that minor/senior double today, they’ve been waiting a fair while.

From our perspective looking on it’s hard to see us having days like Limerick and Wexford had today anytime soon. Both counties coming strong at underage and with ‘the big 4’ Of Kk Tipp Cork and Galway always going to have a strong conveyor belt of underage talent, and Dublin being heavily funded aswell, we are already slipping down the pecking order. Looking back at the past 20 years or so we’ve been at the top table pretty much year in year out, have seen some phenomenal players and teams come and go, and had some underage success, you can’t but say we’ve had ample time and chances to get over the line to win the big one. I do think it’s beyond us now, unless someone can come in and work magic with this group in next 2/3 years, which is unlikely.

deiseach

I take heart from Wexford's experience. I doubt anyone would have seen them winning both titles yesterday. 35 years since they won the Minor. The only hurling trophy we haven't won in that time is the MacCarthy Cup. Of the rest, we've won each of them once since 2009. Nothing is cast in stone.

Deisefacts

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Hard to begrudge Wexford that minor/senior double today, they’ve been waiting a fair while.

From our perspective looking on it’s hard to see us having days like Limerick and Wexford had today anytime soon. Both counties coming strong at underage and with ‘the big 4’ Of Kk Tipp Cork and Galway always going to have a strong conveyor belt of underage talent, and Dublin being heavily funded aswell, we are already slipping down the pecking order. Looking back at the past 20 years or so we’ve been at the top table pretty much year in year out, have seen some phenomenal players and teams come and go, and had some underage success, you can’t but say we’ve had ample time and chances to get over the line to win the big one. I do think it’s beyond us now, unless someone can come in and work magic with this group in next 2/3 years, which is unlikely.

Jesus Wexford are flying since they got rid of paraic fanning

Waternut

Congratulations to Limerick and Wexford but christ both matches hightlighted we are miles behind what's needed.
Limerick are a breath of fresh air and it show what can be achieved by aggressively pumping money and effort into underage hurling. I think that was Limericks fifth or sixth Munster minor final in the last seven years and the talent coming through is frightening.
Waterford kind of got caught up celebrating one minor/U21 and let's be honest, we haven't really been challenging for underage for the last number or years.
We've got to get back to basics and match the efforts of Limericks, Tipp, Cork and Galway, otherwise we are wasting our time.

hardybuck

Waternut wrote: »

Congratulations to Limerick and Wexford but christ both matches hightlighted we are miles behind what's needed.
Limerick are a breath of fresh air and it show what can be achieved by aggressively pumping money and effort into underage hurling. I think that was Limericks fifth or sixth Munster minor final in the last seven years and the talent coming through is frightening.
Waterford kind of got caught up celebrating one minor/U21 and let's be honest, we haven't really been challenging for underage for the last number or years.
We've got to get back to basics and match the efforts of Limericks, Tipp, Cork and Galway, otherwise we are wasting our time.

No, Limerick previously won three All Ireland U21s in a row and were pretty awful at senior level for a lot of years afterwards. They've done something other than pumping money into underage this time.

puzl

paddy13 wrote: »

That Cork team had already won a few All Ireland's our bunch have won nothing to command that level of authority.

They had one exactly one all Ireland before the first strike. The stike came after they got hammered by Galway and at the time everyone was speculating about problems in the dressing room etc. They went on to stop kilkenny's 3 in a row in 04, and almost did a 3 in a row themselves. The first strike was absolutely the best thing for Cork hurling at the time, in my opinion. The second strike was an unmitigated disaster and I think we're only now seeing them fully recover from it in the last 2-3 years.

Giveitfong

Waternut wrote: »

Waterford kind of got caught up celebrating one minor/U21 and let's be honest, we haven't really been challenging for underage for the last number or years.

In 2014 Waterford lost the Munster minor hurling final in a replay and then lost the All-Ireland semi-final in extra time, a game they should have won in normal time.

In 2015 Waterford minors lost by a point to Tipperary in Semple Stadium. Tipperary went on to win the Munster championship.

In 2016 Waterford beat Tipperary by three points in Walsh Park but lost to Limerick by two points in the semi-final. Tipperary beat Limerick in the Munster final and went on to beat them again in the All-Ireland final.

2017 was a bad year for the minors, when they took two hammerings from Cork.

In 2018 Waterford beat both Tipperary and Limerick, the two counties that ended up playing in the Munster final. Waterford blew what looked like a certain place in the Munster final by imploding in their final game against a very moderate Cork team that had already been well beaten by both Tipp and Limerick.

Waterford also missed out on a great chance to make the Munster final this year. They lost their first game to Clare by just two points. I remain convinced they would have beaten Tippeary had Rory Furlong not got sent off just before half time. In the end they lost by three points. That was also a moderate Tipp team which was well beaten by Clare, Cork and Limerick.

Waterford should definitely have beaten Limerick in Walsh Park. They played really well against the strong wind in the first half by running at Limerick. After they changed ends they fell into the typical trap of thinking the wind would win the game for them and resorted to long balls out of defence, a tactic which had not worked for Limerick in the first half. To make matters worse, Waterford stuck to their sweeper in defence, which meant their forwards were outnumbered when fighting for incoming long balls. I remember the Limerick left corner back cleaned up ball after ball.

Waterford finally pushed more players up in the final quarter and managed to get ahead, only to be pulled back by a last-minute Limerick free. Again, I think Waterford would have won that game if either they had kept at their running game or had pushed up on Limerick in the third quarter. Limerick, of course, won the Munster final yesterday.

Waterford therefore could well have gone into the last game against Cork seeking a Munster final place, and that would have given the game a different dimension. As it was, they lost by three points, with the selectors repeating the idiocy of the Limerick game by maintaining a sweeper when playing with the wind in the second half – in a game in which they had nothing to lose.

As regards the Under 21s, they were blatantly robbed by Waterford’s favourite referee Fergal Horgan when beaten by a point by Cork in Walsh Park in 2017. Incidentally, Colm Roche scored five points from play in that game. This excellent player has been shamefully undertutilised since by both Derek McGrath and Pádraig Fanning who have clung instead to clearly inferior players.

Last year, Waterford lost to Cork by three points in Páirc Uí Chaoimh, a game they should definitely have won were it not for missed chances and dreadful – almost shameful – decision-making by the selectors. John Paul Lucey and Andrew Casey were excellent in that game and haven’t been seen since. Cork went on to beat Tipperary easily in the Munster final.

So Walnut’s assertion that Waterford have not been challenging at under-age level for the last number of years is clearly incorrect.

It is worth noting that there was little overlap between the Waterford minor teams of last year and this year. Of this year’s team, only three – Rory Furlong, Jack Ó Floinn and Caolán Mac Craith – also played last year. Tristan Loftus from this year’s team was an unused sub last year. This means that Waterford should have good material for their under 20 team over the next couple of years.

This year’s team in particular had some big players who were good in the air – a quality which is sadly lacking at senior level at the moment. We should, of course, be working on helping these guys to make the transition to senior level but, sadly, Waterford have no developmental academy to make sure that this happens. There is no continuity in the cultivation of Waterford under-age talent, with selectors being chosen on an ad-hoc basis from year to year with no coherent coaching system. Sometimes I look at the under-age selectors which other counties have and reckon that, if Waterford had people like those, they would achieve much more success at this level. I have lost count of the number of times Waterford under-age teams have been badly let down by those on the sideline.

Road-Hog

Giveitfong wrote: »

In 2014 Waterford lost the Munster minor hurling final in a replay and then lost the All-Ireland semi-final in extra time, a game they should have won in normal time.

In 2015 Waterford minors lost by a point to Tipperary in Semple Stadium. Tipperary went on to win the Munster championship.

In 2016 Waterford beat Tipperary by three points in Walsh Park but lost to Limerick by two points in the semi-final. Tipperary beat Limerick in the Munster final and went on to beat them again in the All-Ireland final.

2017 was a bad year for the minors, when they took two hammerings from Cork.

In 2018 Waterford beat both Tipperary and Limerick, the two counties that ended up playing in the Munster final. Waterford blew what looked like a certain place in the Munster final by imploding in their final game against a very moderate Cork team that had already been well beaten by both Tipp and Limerick.

Waterford also missed out on a great chance to make the Munster final this year. They lost their first game to Clare by just two points. I remain convinced they would have beaten Tippeary had Rory Furlong not got sent off just before half time. In the end they lost by three points. That was also a moderate Tipp team which was well beaten by Clare, Cork and Limerick.

Waterford should definitely have beaten Limerick in Walsh Park. They played really well against the strong wind in the first half by running at Limerick. After they changed ends they fell into the typical trap of thinking the wind would win the game for them and resorted to long balls out of defence, a tactic which had not worked for Limerick in the first half. To make matters worse, Waterford stuck to their sweeper in defence, which meant their forwards were outnumbered when fighting for incoming long balls. I remember the Limerick left corner back cleaned up ball after ball.

Waterford finally pushed more players up in the final quarter and managed to get ahead, only to be pulled back by a last-minute Limerick free. Again, I think Waterford would have won that game if either they had kept at their running game or had pushed up on Limerick in the third quarter. Limerick, of course, won the Munster final yesterday.

Waterford therefore could well have gone into the last game against Cork seeking a Munster final place, and that would have given the game a different dimension. As it was, they lost by three points, with the selectors repeating the idiocy of the Limerick game by maintaining a sweeper when playing with the wind in the second half – in a game in which they had nothing to lose.

As regards the Under 21s, they were blatantly robbed by Waterford’s favourite referee Fergal Horgan when beaten by a point by Cork in Walsh Park in 2017. Incidentally, Colm Roche scored five points from play in that game. This excellent player has been shamefully undertutilised since by both Derek McGrath and Pádraig Fanning who have clung instead to clearly inferior players.

Last year, Waterford lost to Cork by three points in Páirc Uí Chaoimh, a game they should definitely have won were it not for missed chances and dreadful – almost shameful – decision-making by the selectors. John Paul Lucey and Andrew Casey were excellent in that game and haven’t been seen since. Cork went on to beat Tipperary easily in the Munster final.

So Walnut’s assertion that Waterford have not been challenging at under-age level for the last number of years is clearly incorrect.

It is worth noting that there was little overlap between the Waterford minor teams of last year and this year. Of this year’s team, only three – Rory Furlong, Jack Ó Floinn and Caolán Mac Craith – also played last year. Tristan Loftus from this year’s team was an unused sub last year. This means that Waterford should have good material for their under 20 team over the next couple of years.

This year’s team in particular had some big players who were good in the air – a quality which is sadly lacking at senior level at the moment. We should, of course, be working on helping these guys to make the transition to senior level but, sadly, Waterford have no developmental academy to make sure that this happens. There is no continuity in the cultivation of Waterford under-age talent, with selectors being chosen on an ad-hoc basis from year to year with no coherent coaching system. Sometimes I look at the under-age selectors which other counties have and reckon that, if Waterford had people like those, they would achieve much more success at this level. I have lost count of the number of times Waterford under-age teams have been badly let down by those on the sideline.

As usual you put some good perspective on the overwheleaming pessimists here.

Ballyvoile Boy

Giveitfong wrote: »

In 2014 Waterford lost the Munster minor hurling final in a replay and then lost the All-Ireland semi-final in extra time, a game they should have won in normal time.

In 2015 Waterford minors lost by a point to Tipperary in Semple Stadium. Tipperary went on to win the Munster championship.

In 2016 Waterford beat Tipperary by three points in Walsh Park but lost to Limerick by two points in the semi-final. Tipperary beat Limerick in the Munster final and went on to beat them again in the All-Ireland final.

2017 was a bad year for the minors, when they took two hammerings from Cork.

In 2018 Waterford beat both Tipperary and Limerick, the two counties that ended up playing in the Munster final. Waterford blew what looked like a certain place in the Munster final by imploding in their final game against a very moderate Cork team that had already been well beaten by both Tipp and Limerick.

Waterford also missed out on a great chance to make the Munster final this year. They lost their first game to Clare by just two points. I remain convinced they would have beaten Tippeary had Rory Furlong not got sent off just before half time. In the end they lost by three points. That was also a moderate Tipp team which was well beaten by Clare, Cork and Limerick.

Waterford should definitely have beaten Limerick in Walsh Park. They played really well against the strong wind in the first half by running at Limerick. After they changed ends they fell into the typical trap of thinking the wind would win the game for them and resorted to long balls out of defence, a tactic which had not worked for Limerick in the first half. To make matters worse, Waterford stuck to their sweeper in defence, which meant their forwards were outnumbered when fighting for incoming long balls. I remember the Limerick left corner back cleaned up ball after ball.

Waterford finally pushed more players up in the final quarter and managed to get ahead, only to be pulled back by a last-minute Limerick free. Again, I think Waterford would have won that game if either they had kept at their running game or had pushed up on Limerick in the third quarter. Limerick, of course, won the Munster final yesterday.

Waterford therefore could well have gone into the last game against Cork seeking a Munster final place, and that would have given the game a different dimension. As it was, they lost by three points, with the selectors repeating the idiocy of the Limerick game by maintaining a sweeper when playing with the wind in the second half – in a game in which they had nothing to lose.

As regards the Under 21s, they were blatantly robbed by Waterford’s favourite referee Fergal Horgan when beaten by a point by Cork in Walsh Park in 2017. Incidentally, Colm Roche scored five points from play in that game. This excellent player has been shamefully undertutilised since by both Derek McGrath and Pádraig Fanning who have clung instead to clearly inferior players.

Last year, Waterford lost to Cork by three points in Páirc Uí Chaoimh, a game they should definitely have won were it not for missed chances and dreadful – almost shameful – decision-making by the selectors. John Paul Lucey and Andrew Casey were excellent in that game and haven’t been seen since. Cork went on to beat Tipperary easily in the Munster final.

So Walnut’s assertion that Waterford have not been challenging at under-age level for the last number of years is clearly incorrect.

It is worth noting that there was little overlap between the Waterford minor teams of last year and this year. Of this year’s team, only three – Rory Furlong, Jack Ó Floinn and Caolán Mac Craith – also played last year. Tristan Loftus from this year’s team was an unused sub last year. This means that Waterford should have good material for their under 20 team over the next couple of years.

This year’s team in particular had some big players who were good in the air – a quality which is sadly lacking at senior level at the moment. We should, of course, be working on helping these guys to make the transition to senior level but, sadly, Waterford have no developmental academy to make sure that this happens. There is no continuity in the cultivation of Waterford under-age talent, with selectors being chosen on an ad-hoc basis from year to year with no coherent coaching system. Sometimes I look at the under-age selectors which other counties have and reckon that, if Waterford had people like those, they would achieve much more success at this level. I have lost count of the number of times Waterford under-age teams have been badly let down by those on the sideline.

I don't often post here, or even log in, but I wholeheartedly agree with this. Too much negativity in the county regarding the talent available. I do think that the structures need more, particularly a new and driven head honcho (with the necessary backing/funding/lack of interference from the board and particularly the civil servants within the setup) who will have both the vision and the unstinting energy to push for better standards of coaching and physical training, as well as managerial tactics. Have some in the structures become too cosy in their positions and is there full accountability to the clubs? It seems that some may not even be questioned....

Also, our senior hurlers have not become bad players overnight, they are just lacking in confidence right now and if Paraic stays on, then his first job will be to get them back on track and with a much more game to game tactical take on matters than seemed evident this year. Managers have to prove themselves too, in fact much more so than individual players and Paraic (although he seems a solid fella and is unquestionably a hurling fanatic) is facing a huge task if he stays on for 2020. Wexford won a Leinster final with belief and some defensive tactics - belief being the biggest factor IMO. Limerick are just on another level again this year, so it is hard to see them being beaten again in 2019, but there is plenty to strive for.


A lack of player talent is not the biggest issue we face at all, there are plenty of good hurlers. We need to improve vastly in terms of admin, tactics and coaching though in my opinion.

upthedeise16

Well done to our under 20 footballers on defeating Clare tonight in the Munster championship

PTH2009

upthedeise16 wrote: »

Well done to our under 20 footballers on defeating Clare tonight in the Munster championship

Great result well done too all involved

mountgomery burns

Fairplay Gavin Whelan. An absolute gentleman

Mastermcgrath

upthedeise16 wrote: »

Well done to our under 20 footballers on defeating Clare tonight in the Munster championship

Good to see some dual players putting it in aswell. With the hurlers lining out in a couple weeks will be interesting to see how this is managed.