Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

cul beag

Squinters wrote: »

Every Waterford Manager’s term has pretty much been a failure so. You don’t go three generations without winning an All Ireland by having successful Managers. That’s the reality of being a Waterford hurling fan. The joyous and exciting 00’s ultimately came to nothing but I’d still consider 2002 - 2008 as pretty good ones, regardless and despite it being capped with an absolute hammering by KK on the biggest stage of all.

Between 2002-2010 Waterford won 4 Munster titles and one National League all with outside managers I might add. Contested the 08 final also. That’s success.

Deiselurker

Disappointment again in Limerick for Waterford fans yesterday. Very flat performance and never looked like getting back into game after Limerick blitzed us midway through first half. Their movement and skills were very good while we had no energy. Atmosphere in the open stand was quiet even before the game. PA system couldn't be heard properly there either.
It was just a poor year all round and nothing went right between the lack of home games, injuries and referee decisions so a year to forget for the senior hurler.

cul beag

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Alright no need for the sarcasm cul brag. Lads I was a big fan of McGrath but it’s time for a change. The man has had 5 years with this group of players.
What really annoyed me was his attitude towards the league this year. He went out and played his usual starting 15 and didn’t give any of the young lads like Foran, Keating, Prunty or Roche a chance to blend in with the regulars. It was either start his normal 15 or throw 10 new lads in together. He knew that we were going to need a decent panel this year but he never gave the subs a chance.
Mcnulty has been on the panel since 2015 just floating around as well as players like Ian Kenny and Colin Dunford. Either these players are good enough or not, we’ve seen yesterday that the former is not good enough for this level which is why the new manager needs to be a neutral and pick a panel based on ability. Once again I hope and pray by some sort of miracle that Jimmy Barry or Sheedy get drunk one night and accept the job because we can’t afford to waste any more years with this talented group of players. Thanks to Derek for the good days out like KK 1st game 2016, KK game 2017, Cork League final 2015, Cork semi final AI 2017. At the end of the day he’ll be judged on trophies which we have been lacking. The players are entering their prime years. SOK, the 2 Mahony’s, Darragh Fives, Brian O H, will be hitting 27 / 28 while Noel Connors, Barry Coughlan and Tommy Ryan will be 29. Kevin Moran 30/31 and we’ll see what happens with the Brick. All the rest of the lads will be middle 20s and We’ll have the return of the 2 Bennett’s. Someone has said Tom Devine won’t be available next year I don’t know how true that is but one of the first things the new manager will have to do will be to take care of that. Deise Abu!

Some very valid points. His stubbornness eventually came back to bite him in the backside as because he kept using the same core players better squad members walked away and left him with the deadwood you see now. Dunford McNulty Kenny are ultimately not good enough at this level. Keating? We don’t know as he has never had an opportunity to show his strengths. Why keep him away from Ardmore’s victory holiday if you never had any intention of using him(even with all the injuries)
His loyalty to certain panel members that were constantly breaking squad rules again backfired as they decided that the lure of the loot was more lucrative than winning an All Ireland.
The Tom Devine story has been circulating for some time and will be interesting to see the outcome next year.
So, my options for a new management team would be:
Anthony Daly Paul Flynn James O Connor,
Liam Sheedy, Paul Flynn, James O Connor.
If we are to fill the position from within then Hartley will probably have first refusal because of his success with Ballygunner. Others from within that could add something to it would be Tony Browne, Ken Mcgrath and maybe Dan also as ultimately the players will have a huge input and his popularity within the squad is well known. Maybe if he was kept on board his opinions might be of more value to the new management team.
We have had 5 years of a system that for long stretches of games choked the life out of some of our natural hurlers. This plus Mcgrath’s attitude towards the league, his holding to ransom of the county board over the holiday has driven supporters away from following them this year.
One positive thing for next Sunday though is the recognition of Brick’s contribution to this county. I hope for his sake alone that his service will get the send off it deserves as he has been some warrior in the deise jersey for longer than I care to remember. We will never see the likes of him again.

KevIRL

Waterford v Monaghan in the football

Ropaire

**** sake, worst football draw we could have gotten

Fred C Dobbs

Fergal Hartley will be the new manager, almost by default. Jimmy Barry would have a right laugh if someone offered him the job - Sheedy has more sense than to get involved with a county that can’t even host a home championship game. Daly is doing okay with his punditry etc., thank you very much. DJ might throw his hat in the ring as a means of cutting his teeth at inter county management.

Squinters

cul beag wrote: »

Between 2002-2010 Waterford won 4 Munster titles and one National League all with outside managers I might add. Contested the 08 final also. That’s success.

I'd say "contest" is probably a bit of a push for 2008. We were a lot closer to winning an All Ireland last year. Given where Waterford hurling had gone when he picked things up it's hard to argue that he didn't progress and achieve a decent amount during his tenure. The point I was making is that even our most "pure" and talented squad of players in the 00's never made it over the line. I still think we can win an All Ireland with this group and if we do there will be a lot of credit owed to the likes of Derek.

Gardner

Well what’s another year.

I was sitting with 2 former players from the late 90’s in the Mackey stand and we were discussing before the game how we are going to setup. Both said they were happy with how we were lining out as per the program but my argument was if we did we would be on the back end of a bad trimming. Limerick got their man management off to a tee. You cannot have an Austin Gleeson at 50-60% fit sitting in the most important position on the field, you cannot have a 35 year old Brick Walsh man up with Gearoid Hegarty who can run 100 metres under 11 seconds (source: offtheball) you cannot play midget Roche in a half forward line if you’re going to be continuously pumping long high balls down. That type of game would suit Jake Dillion if you were to compare apples with apples. Derek made that change at the 50 minute mark when it was evident it was a problem at about the 10 minute mark. Another gripe of mine was the 2 subs at half time. Why wait till half time to make these decisions? If you know after 10/15/20/25 mins etc. that you have a problem then make the sub then.

Being honest we all can rant on about yesterday but the deciding factor lays deeper in all this. Take a step back and look what we’re facing pre and post the Clare game. A very valid point was raised by Daithi Regan yesterday and echoed by DMG to a lesser extent. Post Clare Game we had 5 of 7 of our AI final defenders gone. No team can sustain that whatsoever, in any code or any sport. Pre Clare game we had 8 week lead in time from the league to get setup for the Championship.2 weeks out we lose Gleeson and Mahoney to injury and within 40 min of the Clare game we have lost Fives, Connors, Coughlan and TDB. The whole 8 weeks has gone up in smoke, our game plan is gone up in smoke, our plan for the year have gone up in smoke and everything since January has gone up in smoke.

One thing that is clearly evident though in all this, the notion of us beating a team 15 on 15 has been put to bed. We simply don’t have the players and the myth that DMG has been holding us back has been exposed for the myth it always was.

Squinters

Gardner wrote: »

Being honest we all can rant on about yesterday but the deciding factor lays deeper in all this. Take a step back and look what we’re facing pre and post the Clare game. A very valid point was raised by Daithi Regan yesterday and echoed by DMG to a lesser extent. Post Clare Game we had 5 of 7 of our AI final defenders gone. No team can sustain that whatsoever, in any code or any sport. Pre Clare game we had 8 week lead in time from the league to get setup for the Championship.2 weeks out we lose Gleeson and Mahoney to injury and within 40 min of the Clare game we have lost Fives, Connors, Coughlan and TDB. The whole 8 weeks has gone up in smoke, our game plan is gone up in smoke, our plan for the year have gone up in smoke and everything since January has gone up in smoke.

One thing that is clearly evident though in all this, the notion of us beating a team 15 on 15 has been put to bed. We simply don’t have the players and the myth that DMG has been holding us back has been exposed for the myth it always was.

You'd have to wonder how the likes of Galway would go if say the likes of Joe, Daithí Burke, Hanbury, Mannion and McInerney were all unavailable with short notice before Championship. No matter what "system" or tactics are being used by Waterford, losing the number of key players we did this year was always going to make it an uphill struggle. It's reasonable to criticise the tactics and suggest that there we should have been blooding more of the younger talent around the county over the last couple of years, but it's very hard to come up with a contingency plan that factors in losing half your starting team.

Also, there were definitely a few counties with better hurlers last year, but we still got to an AI final because we hurled to our strengths. It ultimately came up short but the much maligned sweeper system brought us as close as we've been in nearly 60 years.

bullpost

Wonder what odds you would have got that the footballers would still be involved in the championship longer than the hurlers

Deisegodeo

People mention Fergal Hartley as a possible replacement but I'd be surprised if he had the time to take on such a position, he is running a busy business right now. Aside from any hurling argument I just can't see How he would have the time to dedicate to being Waterford manager.

Heard this morning that Ken McGrath would be in the running. Not sure about That, as popular as Ken is, his short spell in charge of mount sion senior team wouldn't indicate him as a future Waterford manager

RayVaughan1984

Tis a pity to see Waterford out.Ye have some great players.Hopefully a new manager can revitalise things a tad.DMG has been a credit to ye.
Very unlucky with the injuries ye had.I can guarantee ye if Tipp had DMG as manager they would be topping Munster.Tipp out of ideas.

blue note

The injuries ruined our season - it's as simple as that. We took it easy during the league and I reckon we were taking a bit of a gamble (like Tipp) in hoping we'd get through Munster without peaking. And if we were serious about the All Ireland I think we needed to do that. Galway were the same - they're just lucky enough to be in Leinster. But if we were at our peak now, we'd be on the wane after that. Getting through a semi-final / final against the likes of Galway would be a step too far. Even if we hadn't had the injuries I think there was always a chance we'd crash out in Munster anyway, but I do think it was the right strategy.


But with the injuries we just didn't have a hope. The Tipp game was great, but it was also a bit of a freak game. We didn't have a wide for 22 minutes or something. And that was with the likes of Jamie Barron putting two over from our own 65, Mahony getting one from out on the sideline on the 21 and a snap shot under pressure from the half-way line. Our two goals were from high balls into the square. Usually they're bread and butter for a defence, but in particular for the second goal we got lucky and got two chances. Of which we converted two - again not something you can normally rely on. And then from Tipps point of view they hit some terrible wides. And there were a couple of times when it looked like they might break through our defence for a goal, but we managed to foul them. Again, you can't always get the foul in or even if you can if it's the same man twice you can end up with 14 players. We were lucky here too. When they had a man sent off I really thought it was just our day. Of course it was a complete reversal of luck in the second half, entirely in the form of bad decisions from the officials.

But it really was a bit of a freak game. A very entertaining one, but one that people read far too much into. People seemed to consider it proof that McGrath's tactics were wrong for the last few years and if we'd played like that all the way along we'd have done much better. And I'm not remotely convinced that that's the case. Last year we were racking up bigger scores than any other team going into the final. Galway probably had a higher average after the final, but barely. And as far as I could see, this was with forwards of less quality than Tipp, Galway and Cork at least. We were the only ones scoring goals too. We worked very hard for our scores - often playing it around a lot to get the ball into a scoring position, but I think we had to. Because our forwards weren't the most clinical or best at winning their own ball. Jamie Barron and Brick aren't the most clinical of finishers. They're good for a couple of scores each game, but also a couple of wides. You could probably say the same of Aussie, but in the half forward line he's actually not that bad for wides. The Brick doesn't really shoot so it isn't an issue. Then Dillon / Bennett - Dillon wouldn't be a sharp shooter. And I don't think Bennet really was either.

My point is basically that without the best forwards we were scoring more than anyone else. This was somehow seen as a failure of management. The solution to creating more chances and therefore scoring more (even though we were top on both of these stats) was to play another forward. These criticisms have just been so weak for so long as far as I can see. I'm open to the idea that I'm not seeing it, but when week after week I'm reading things like Pauric Mahony doesn't contribute anything from play I just think the people writing these things just don't have a clue.

So as disappointed as I am with the result yesterday, I'm also slightly glad that playing a more traditional system it just didn't work. I didn't have much hope of a win anyway - we just had too many guys injured. The Tipp game was enough proof for some people that we're more suited to a traditional 15 and those people were happy to ignore all the freak factors in the game. We had the same team plus Kevin Moran this time and we were hockeyed. Partly because we were missing players / playing guys carrying knocks. But also because that system doesn't work for us. We don't have the players for it and virtually no-one does.

cul beag

Gardner wrote: »

Well what’s another year.

I was sitting with 2 former players from the late 90’s in the Mackey stand and we were discussing before the game how we are going to setup. Both said they were happy with how we were lining out as per the program but my argument was if we did we would be on the back end of a bad trimming. Limerick got their man management off to a tee. You cannot have an Austin Gleeson at 50-60% fit sitting in the most important position on the field, you cannot have a 35 year old Brick Walsh man up with Gearoid Hegarty who can run 100 metres under 11 seconds (source: offtheball) you cannot play midget Roche in a half forward line if you’re going to be continuously pumping long high balls down. That type of game would suit Jake Dillion if you were to compare apples with apples. Derek made that change at the 50 minute mark when it was evident it was a problem at about the 10 minute mark. Another gripe of mine was the 2 subs at half time. Why wait till half time to make these decisions? If you know after 10/15/20/25 mins etc. that you have a problem then make the sub then.

Being honest we all can rant on about yesterday but the deciding factor lays deeper in all this. Take a step back and look what we’re facing pre and post the Clare game. A very valid point was raised by Daithi Regan yesterday and echoed by DMG to a lesser extent. Post Clare Game we had 5 of 7 of our AI final defenders gone. No team can sustain that whatsoever, in any code or any sport. Pre Clare game we had 8 week lead in time from the league to get setup for the Championship.2 weeks out we lose Gleeson and Mahoney to injury and within 40 min of the Clare game we have lost Fives, Connors, Coughlan and TDB. The whole 8 weeks has gone up in smoke, our game plan is gone up in smoke, our plan for the year have gone up in smoke and everything since January has gone up in smoke.

One thing that is clearly evident though in all this, the notion of us beating a team 15 on 15 has been put to bed. We simply don’t have the players and the myth that DMG has been holding us back has been exposed for the myth it always was.

Couldn’t disagree more. When he had the opportunity over the years to go man for man with a full selection to choose from he never did. The only reason he did it recently was because his hand was forced to due to injuries. He can’t hide behind yesterday’s game to say his tactics over the years were proven right.

JeffKenna

I'm actually baffled that people are still on here defending McGrath.

Genuinely baffled.

crazy_kenny

blue note wrote: »

The injuries ruined our season - it's as simple as that. We took it easy during the league and I reckon we were taking a bit of a gamble (like Tipp) in hoping we'd get through Munster without peaking. And if we were serious about the All Ireland I think we needed to do that. Galway were the same - they're just lucky enough to be in Leinster. But if we were at our peak now, we'd be on the wane after that. Getting through a semi-final / final against the likes of Galway would be a step too far. Even if we hadn't had the injuries I think there was always a chance we'd crash out in Munster anyway, but I do think it was the right strategy.


But with the injuries we just didn't have a hope. The Tipp game was great, but it was also a bit of a freak game. We didn't have a wide for 22 minutes or something. And that was with the likes of Jamie Barron putting two over from our own 65, Mahony getting one from out on the sideline on the 21 and a snap shot under pressure from the half-way line. Our two goals were from high balls into the square. Usually they're bread and butter for a defence, but in particular for the second goal we got lucky and got two chances. Of which we converted two - again not something you can normally rely on. And then from Tipps point of view they hit some terrible wides. And there were a couple of times when it looked like they might break through our defence for a goal, but we managed to foul them. Again, you can't always get the foul in or even if you can if it's the same man twice you can end up with 14 players. We were lucky here too. When they had a man sent off I really thought it was just our day. Of course it was a complete reversal of luck in the second half, entirely in the form of bad decisions from the officials.

But it really was a bit of a freak game. A very entertaining one, but one that people read far too much into. People seemed to consider it proof that McGrath's tactics were wrong for the last few years and if we'd played like that all the way along we'd have done much better. And I'm not remotely convinced that that's the case. Last year we were racking up bigger scores than any other team going into the final. Galway probably had a higher average after the final, but barely. And as far as I could see, this was with forwards of less quality than Tipp, Galway and Cork at least. We were the only ones scoring goals too. We worked very hard for our scores - often playing it around a lot to get the ball into a scoring position, but I think we had to. Because our forwards weren't the most clinical or best at winning their own ball. Jamie Barron and Brick aren't the most clinical of finishers. They're good for a couple of scores each game, but also a couple of wides. You could probably say the same of Aussie, but in the half forward line he's actually not that bad for wides. The Brick doesn't really shoot so it isn't an issue. Then Dillon / Bennett - Dillon wouldn't be a sharp shooter. And I don't think Bennet really was either.

My point is basically that without the best forwards we were scoring more than anyone else. This was somehow seen as a failure of management. The solution to creating more chances and therefore scoring more (even though we were top on both of these stats) was to play another forward. These criticisms have just been so weak for so long as far as I can see. I'm open to the idea that I'm not seeing it, but when week after week I'm reading things like Pauric Mahony doesn't contribute anything from play I just think the people writing these things just don't have a clue.

So as disappointed as I am with the result yesterday, I'm also slightly glad that playing a more traditional system it just didn't work. I didn't have much hope of a win anyway - we just had too many guys injured. The Tipp game was enough proof for some people that we're more suited to a traditional 15 and those people were happy to ignore all the freak factors in the game. We had the same team plus Kevin Moran this time and we were hockeyed. Partly because we were missing players / playing guys carrying knocks. But also because that system doesn't work for us. We don't have the players for it and virtually no-one does.

So your basically saying we can’t play 15 on 15 based on one game. Maybe it’s because the sweeper system is so ingrained into the players heads they have forgotten how to play this way.

puzl

I'm baffled people are trying to write off McGrath completely. Nobody is claiming the guy is perfect, but to disregard his achievements is an injustice.

We beat KK in the Championship for the first time since 1959. We beat Cork and KK in the one year. We got within shouting distance of the Liam McCarthy Cup. Sure he's not perfect, and sure he has made many bad decisions form the sideline. I don't think anybody is claiming he is the best manager we ever had, but he certainly isn't the worst and whether he has called it right or wrong at times I think nobody can question his intentions, his commitment and his behaviour. So people aren't so much defending every McGrath decision ever, but more trying to take the sting out of the bitterness that some people have for him.

JeffKenna

puzl wrote: »

I'm baffled people are trying to write off McGrath completely. Nobody is claiming the guy is perfect, but to disregard his achievements is an injustice.

We beat KK in the Championship for the first time since 1959. We beat Cork and KK in the one year. We got within shouting distance of the Liam McCarthy Cup. Sure he's not perfect, and sure he has made many bad decisions form the sideline. I don't think anybody is claiming he is the best manager we ever had, but he certainly isn't the worst and whether he has called it right or wrong at times I think nobody can question his intentions, his commitment and his behaviour. So people aren't so much defending every McGrath decision ever, but more trying to take the sting out of the bitterness that some people have for him.

Well I don't think anyone is questioning his intentions or commitment, people are coming on here saying that yesterdays match proved we don't have the players to play 15 v 15. It's those peoples intentions I would question.

blue note

crazy_kenny wrote: »

So your basically saying we can’t play 15 on 15 based on one game. Maybe it’s because the sweeper system is so ingrained into the players heads they have forgotten how to play this way.

It's more like the opposite that I'm saying. That people were saying that we could (and should have all along) lined out with a traditional 15 and seemed to think that one almost good result playing like this was proof of it. I'm saying I don't think we have the players for it (and that virtually no-one does) and that one freakish game isn't proof of anything. If we had beaten Limerick I'd start to reconsider and if we had gone on to beat Cork then and qualify I'd have held my hand up and said I was wrong. But instead we were swept aside comfortably by Limerick. Even if we had our full strength team I think lining out like that we'd have struggled to get scores up front because the ball going up there would have been of less quality because we wouldn't have had the free men in defence to give ourselves time to pick out a pass. And that we'd have been vulnerable in the back because we'd have had less cover.

I wouldn't call it 15 on 15 btw. Very rare to see a team play a traditional 15 now. If we line out that way we'll probably be facing an extra man in the backs or midfield anyway.

JesusRef

It was just too many body blows for Waterford to take this year.
On top of the injuries plainly unfit players had to go out week after week and it just proved too much.

Whatever about tactics or whatever else the way that McGrath and these Waterford players have conducted themselves over the last 5 years certainly make me proud.

They are a bunch of really classy top quality individuals

KevIRL

Really disappointing yesterday. As someone that has travelled all over the country watching this team over the year I have to say that things havent seemed right from a long way out. Its a pity that as a year has passed by now.

Hopefully some numbers will turn out next week to support both the minors, give a big send off to Brick and to the current management team as well. They deserve it.

A lot more to be said but really dont feel like it now.

Deisegodeo

Feels like the old days of being out of the championship before the Leaving cert is even finished! When was last time we exited so early? 2001 v limerick down in cork as I recall it

Ropaire

It's not as simple as saying we played 15 vs 15 or with a sweeper. Things like the complete lack of a puck out strategy and defenders slapping ball blind up the field giving forwards no chance regardless of how we lined out is poor coaching of a team. That kind of stuff should be sorted out after 5 years.
The complete lack of depth in the panel that was shown up the last few weeks despite the abundance of hurlers currently in the county is also another problem. The league was thrown away and completely wasted in this regard, there was plenty of games to try lads out. Lots of posters have said that the players love Derek, I'd say 15 of them do but there's plenty others that are bound to be disillusioned with it at this stage. Dereks had a good lash off it and did alright, but fresh ideas are needed at this stage.

cul beag

Ropaire wrote: »

It's not as simple as saying we played 15 vs 15 or with a sweeper. Things like the complete lack of a puck out strategy and defenders slapping ball blind up the field giving forwards no chance regardless of how we lined out is poor coaching of a team. That kind of stuff should be sorted out after 5 years.
The complete lack of depth in the panel that was shown up the last few weeks despite the abundance of hurlers currently in the county is also another problem. The league was thrown away and completely wasted in this regard, there was plenty of games to try lads out. Lots of posters have said that the players love Derek, I'd say 15 of them do but there's plenty others that are bound to be disillusioned with it at this stage. Dereks had a good lash off it and did alright, but fresh ideas are needed at this stage.

Well said.

Jjjjjjjbarry

Deise_2012 wrote: »

Anyone here mentioning Sean Power would want to cop on. The man has never even managed at club level. He’d be way out of his depth.

I don't really get this to be honest. Management is a results business and the man has delivered two All Ireland titles in recent years working with a lot of the current panel of players.

I've seen people say before that anyone could have managed that group of players to All Ireland success because they were a special bunch. The fact is that anybody didn't. One man did and I'd like to remind everyone of the talented bunch of senior players we had from 98-2008 who did not win an All Ireland. If they'd won two or three, we'd all be saying that anybody could have managed them to success because we'll probably never see such talent in our starting 15 ever again. Unfortunately it never happened. It just takes that bit of magic to steer the ship and whether it's luck or wisdom is irrelevant. It's all about results.


Saying all that, I think that if Derek is not coming back then we need to look at all options and make the right decision for the county team. Hopefully we get it right.

Personally I'd have nothing against Power getting a go at it but would be delighted to see Anthony Daly come in. Sounds like one our greatest strengths is the "togetherness" of the panel and all the Dubs have high praise for Daly for his man management skills. Other than those two, I can't think of anyone else. No chance of Sheedy coming. I'd say there's more chance of Brendan Cummins cutting his teeth than Sheedy and he'd probably only piss of SOK

hurler on de ditch

puzl wrote: »

Just sitting down after a long day. Traffic was a nightmare afterwards.

Heartbroken that the summer is over by June 10th. Hopefully we play for pride next weekend in Thurles.

If it turns out that we beat cork, then it will have been that dodgy umpiring that decided third place in Munster.

No I think it will be the county boards refusal or non action to replace the management team after it was relegated and get in someone with know how , they would have 6 weeks ,

PTH2009

Worst draw the footballers could ask for. Hopefully a bit crowd turns up in Dungarvan for it. McManus is a fine footballer on his day and could be worth the admission price alone If he's on form

Don't think Anthony Daly will want the job. We can't afford an outside manager and Fergal Hartley will get it and set us back years

Stopitwillya

Anthony Daly would be a very poor choice. Negative manager like McGrath who often played a 2 man full forward line with the dubs. Think we need a waterford man at the helm. Sean Power has done his time, has had success and got his teams playing attractive and successful hurling. Deserves his chance.

Giveitfong

puzl wrote: »

If it turns out that we beat cork, then it will have been that dodgy umpiring that decided third place in Munster.

Not quite. If Clare beat or draw with Limerick, then Waterford would have got third place if they simply beat Cork, as it is the head-to-head result which counts in deciding positions where only two teams are involved.


If Clare lost to Limerick, and Waterford beat Cork, then all three teams would have had four points (if Waterford had got the win against Tipp). In this case, scoring difference determines which teams get through.


Currently the Clare and Cork scoring differences are +6 and +5 respectively. If Waterford had beaten Tipperary by a goal, our scoring difference would be -19. In that case, Waterford would have to beat Cork by at least 12 points, which would bring both Waterford and Cork's scoring difference to -7. That would have been rather a tall order. Clare would have to lose by 13 points to bring their scoring difference down to the same level, which is rather unlikely.


Given Waterford's bad luck this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see Clare beating Limerick, making the lost point against Tipperary all the more galling. It would have been great to go to Thurles next Sunday with the seniors still in with a chance of staying in the championship and the minors playing for a place in the Munster final.

flatty

blue note wrote: »

The injuries ruined our season - it's as simple as that. We took it easy during the league and I reckon we were taking a bit of a gamble (like Tipp) in hoping we'd get through Munster without peaking. And if we were serious about the All Ireland I think we needed to do that. Galway were the same - they're just lucky enough to be in Leinster. But if we were at our peak now, we'd be on the wane after that. Getting through a semi-final / final against the likes of Galway would be a step too far. Even if we hadn't had the injuries I think there was always a chance we'd crash out in Munster anyway, but I do think it was the right strategy.


But with the injuries we just didn't have a hope. The Tipp game was great, but it was also a bit of a freak game. We didn't have a wide for 22 minutes or something. And that was with the likes of Jamie Barron putting two over from our own 65, Mahony getting one from out on the sideline on the 21 and a snap shot under pressure from the half-way line. Our two goals were from high balls into the square. Usually they're bread and butter for a defence, but in particular for the second goal we got lucky and got two chances. Of which we converted two - again not something you can normally rely on. And then from Tipps point of view they hit some terrible wides. And there were a couple of times when it looked like they might break through our defence for a goal, but we managed to foul them. Again, you can't always get the foul in or even if you can if it's the same man twice you can end up with 14 players. We were lucky here too. When they had a man sent off I really thought it was just our day. Of course it was a complete reversal of luck in the second half, entirely in the form of bad decisions from the officials.

But it really was a bit of a freak game. A very entertaining one, but one that people read far too much into. People seemed to consider it proof that McGrath's tactics were wrong for the last few years and if we'd played like that all the way along we'd have done much better. And I'm not remotely convinced that that's the case. Last year we were racking up bigger scores than any other team going into the final. Galway probably had a higher average after the final, but barely. And as far as I could see, this was with forwards of less quality than Tipp, Galway and Cork at least. We were the only ones scoring goals too. We worked very hard for our scores - often playing it around a lot to get the ball into a scoring position, but I think we had to. Because our forwards weren't the most clinical or best at winning their own ball. Jamie Barron and Brick aren't the most clinical of finishers. They're good for a couple of scores each game, but also a couple of wides. You could probably say the same of Aussie, but in the half forward line he's actually not that bad for wides. The Brick doesn't really shoot so it isn't an issue. Then Dillon / Bennett - Dillon wouldn't be a sharp shooter. And I don't think Bennet really was either.

My point is basically that without the best forwards we were scoring more than anyone else. This was somehow seen as a failure of management. The solution to creating more chances and therefore scoring more (even though we were top on both of these stats) was to play another forward. These criticisms have just been so weak for so long as far as I can see. I'm open to the idea that I'm not seeing it, but when week after week I'm reading things like Pauric Mahony doesn't contribute anything from play I just think the people writing these things just don't have a clue.

So as disappointed as I am with the result yesterday, I'm also slightly glad that playing a more traditional system it just didn't work. I didn't have much hope of a win anyway - we just had too many guys injured. The Tipp game was enough proof for some people that we're more suited to a traditional 15 and those people were happy to ignore all the freak factors in the game. We had the same team plus Kevin Moran this time and we were hockeyed. Partly because we were missing players / playing guys carrying knocks. But also because that system doesn't work for us. We don't have the players for it and virtually no-one does.

That's a great post, but ye have some fantastic hurlers. What perhaps is against Waterford is that they didn't all come through together. It's just been a season of bad luck. I can't understand why ye would be so keen on ditching mcgrath. The way ye are talking, only winning an aif would be enough.
As a Galway man, I'm genuinely not too bothered about winning or losing. It's the performance and effort that are important. I wasn't despondent leaving croker two years ago after the semi final loss to tipp as galway played great. Tipp just shaded it. Such is life. Your final vanquishing of kk was a clash for the ages. Would have done me.