Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

greenspurs

Does anyone know why Wexford refused to play their relegation play off camogie match Vs Offaly??

Well done to our senior Camogie team. Another league final, and the 4 in a row is on!!

bruschi

greenspurs wrote: »

Does anyone know why Wexford refused to play their relegation play off camogie match Vs Offaly??

Well done to our senior Camogie team. Another league final, and the 4 in a row is on!!

the game was to be played on an astro/4G pitch so when Wexford turned up, they refused to play on it citing it wasnt the right surface. To be honest, considering their turmoil, I think they took advantage of a situation to manipulate it to give them more time to sort themselves out. A new manager just appointed during the week so any more time to get the team together and properly prepared they were taking. Claim was they werent informed so players didnt have the right boots/footwear for the surface. A legitimate claim, however I suspect it was just delay tactics.

greenspurs

bruschi wrote: »

the game was to be played on an astro/4G pitch so when Wexford turned up, they refused to play on it citing it wasnt the right surface. To be honest, considering their turmoil, I think they took advantage of a situation to manipulate it to give them more time to sort themselves out. A new manager just appointed during the week so any more time to get the team together and properly prepared they were taking. Claim was they werent informed so players didnt have the right boots/footwear for the surface. A legitimate claim, however I suspect it was just delay tactics.

Ahh ok... Thanks for that..
I thought it would be something like that ! It does seem a bit opportune to use it as an excuse alright, but hey , maybe they weren't informed....

Its a pity they way camogie has gone in Wexford ! I hope they make a comeback, the sports needs them !

bruschi

greenspurs wrote: »

Ahh ok... Thanks for that..
I thought it would be something like that ! It does seem a bit opportune to use it as an excuse alright, but hey , maybe they weren't informed....

Its a pity they way camogie has gone in Wexford ! I hope they make a comeback, the sports needs them !

I'm not sure why it has happened, but this isnt the first time a manager has been ran out of the wexford camp. I dont know if it is the older players who had been there and successful not accepting second best, or maybe being too big for their boots etc or what. But their drop off from winning 3 in a row in 10,11 and 12 to now where they cant even field a team is huge. Martin Careys appointment in itself was hugely controversial and the co board over the camogie just seem to be a shambles for whatever reason.

mullinr2

therealdonster wrote: »

TJ remains one of the best if not the best hurler in the country and is in great shape so I don't know what you're smoking but I'll have some please...

Cody's team selections have left a lot to be desired. Picking Martin Keoghan as a corner forward is beyond belief and is no slight on the chap who is evidently a tryer. I'm not sure he has the pace for this level and don't think it is a S&C with him as he is a big strong chap.

You would have to question the line too. We don't seem to have improved at all in the last 2 years in my opinion and are just muddling along. I think we have much better talent available than the likes of Wexford but the sum of their parts is better. Other sides are better drilled, know what they are about and have a clear identity - could you say the same about us?

If you were to name our strongest 15 right now you wouldn't have a clue (probably maybe get 6-7) which is also a major worry - I can never recall a team winning an AI that didn't know probably 12-13 of their starting team at the beginning of the year.

I thought in last years league we changed out style, working the ball out of the back line. The league semi final against Wexford was the best we played in a few years. We reverted back to our old style against Tipp and won the final. Cody has persisted with this game plan ever since. It's clearly not working.
Did ye watch Limerick defeat Laois on Saturday night. That's the way to work a ball out of defence. We are a million miles away from that type of play.
I have said it before and have been shot down for saying it, that it is not inconceivable that we could go 10 years without an All Ireland.
We need a outstanding minor and u20 group of players to change our fortunes. Do we have that group in the pipeline? Can anyone shed any light?

mullinr2

And what I mean by ten years I mean from 2015. We have gone 3 so far. Is there an All Ireland in our current panel. Me thinks not.

brookville

mullinr2 wrote: »

And what I mean by ten years I mean from 2015. We have gone 3 so far. Is there an All Ireland in our current panel. Me thinks not.

its hard to know i presume kk will always be strong giving its tradition and the love for the game in our county.I dont think kierans is a true indicator of youngsters coming through but looking at this years team and last years minor team lads like ciarian brennan,conor kelly,jack morrissey,conor murphy look very good prospects and most of them are fowards but its a huge step up to senior.
last years u21 team i was very hopeful we could of made headway in the championship but i was very dissapointed with them against galway granted they finished strong and could of snatched something at the end.
this years u20 team will be made up of carey,brassil,mullen,eoin cody,tommy ronan.id be hopefull eoin cody can make it he looks a very natural hurler while adrian mullen has a big reputation.
at the start of the year when brian brought in lads in was noticeable that he brought in more defenders than fowards as someone else said on our day injury free on form we have good fowards but looking over the league we havent put up huge scores i thought billy ryan had a good league he can give us pace inside and has a directness i like.Mossy hasnt made the same impact as last year and pat lyng who seen loads of game time last year only came on for a few mins against cork.
lots of chopping and changing unlike last year we had a more settled team but we're probably none the wiser going into the summer.Maybe he might try padraig at 6 in the last game.
finally i dont think we are as bad as we showed yesterday granted it was a terrible 2nd half but wexford werent missing many from their full squad the presence of a few experienced lads should hopefully help our younger lads and while it is noticeable that our s&c is behind wexford this is tommy walsh,delaney,cleere,murphy,leahy,Donnelly,billys first or 2nd year playing inter county this wexford team started this rebuild under liam dunne and davey is on his 3rd year we will just unfortunately have to be patient they wont turn into fully conditioned men over the christmas,its going to take time

Topcat32

mullinr2 wrote: »

I thought in last years league we changed out style, working the ball out of the back line. The league semi final against Wexford was the best we played in a few years. We reverted back to our old style against Tipp and won the final. Cody has persisted with this game plan ever since. It's clearly not working.
Did ye watch Limerick defeat Laois on Saturday night. That's the way to work a ball out of defence. We are a million miles away from that type of play.
I have said it before and have been shot down for saying it, that it is not inconceivable that we could go 10 years without an All Ireland.
We need a outstanding minor and u20 group of players to change our fortunes. Do we have that group in the pipeline? Can anyone shed any light?

We did reach a minor final last year beating Limerick and Tipp along the way. If Wexford for example had our minor team last year which went all the way to an all Ireland final I think there would be substantial investment in the development of those players over the next few years, I may be wrong but in Kilkenny we see them lose and we sort of shrug our shoulders a bit.

Same thing could be said about the minor team in 2014, we seemed to sort of let them at it and if 2 or 3 came through all well and good. Limerick did have better players on that minor team but I think they did far more work with players including ones who were pretty ordinary underage.

A lot of the younger players on the panel have had much better underage careers up to Minor than the Henry Shefflin, Michael Kavanagh, Noel Hickey age group or the 4 or 5 lads on the minor team beaten by Offally in the late 90s that went on to be stars. They just dont seem to be developing after 18 as much as players in other countries. Solving the question of why we are much less competitive at under21/under20 level than minor level might be the key to getting back to all Irelands in the near future.

me89

laneykin wrote: »

Kilkenny v Cork set for Saturday 16th March at 2pm in Nowlan Park

Won't be much of a crowd, 20euro for a pointless match.

Comerman

brookville wrote: »

hopefully all the fringe lads are tried as cork will probably do the same.

I'd like to see Browne and Brassil getting a decent bit of game time on Saturday

brookville

Comerman wrote: »

brookville wrote: »

hopefully all the fringe lads are tried as cork will probably do the same.

I'd like to see Browne and Brassil getting a decent bit of game time on Saturday

delaney and harendy both miss out this weekend to serve their suspension instead of the first leinster match so both teams will be happy with that.
The panel must be fairly light at the moment including fringe players Darren brennan,aylward,lennon,scanlon,lawlor,kevin kelly,bill sheehan,buckley,tom aylward ,mikey carey all injured,robbie fitzpatrick pulled his hamstring in a recent challenge match against the shamrocks.
obviously some of the above might not be good enough but it would of being good to get a bit of game time into them.
hopefully he wont go back to padraig at 3 maybe tommy might start there this weekend.the result of this match is pretty much irrelevant and probably the last game for a few on the panel.

citykat

Fair dues to Cody. He wants to toss a coin to decide the game.😂

dastardly00

brookville wrote: »

delaney and harendy both miss out this weekend to serve their suspension instead of the first leinster match so both teams will be happy with that.
The panel must be fairly light at the moment including fringe players Darren brennan,aylward,lennon,scanlon,lawlor,kevin kelly,bill sheehan,buckley,tom aylward ,mikey carey all injured,robbie fitzpatrick pulled his hamstring in a recent challenge match against the shamrocks.
obviously some of the above might not be good enough but it would of being good to get a bit of game time into them.
hopefully he wont go back to padraig at 3 maybe tommy might start there this weekend.the result of this match is pretty much irrelevant and probably the last game for a few on the panel.

This article in the Independent says that a decision still has to be made regarding the match that they will miss.

savannahkat

So many people here once again go for the tried and trusted cliches I.E the weather was the same for both simplistic and childish for the weather invariably suits one more than the other and while last Sundays weather was particularly harsh and affected both it most certainly suited the stronger more physical team. To declare Kilkenny dead and buried for the whole season based on last Sundays game is ridiculous.. I would hate to be a player under the management of those who scream for heads after last Sundays atrocious conditions where it appeared many could barely hold the hurl never mind use it to effect.

brookville

dastardly00 wrote: »

brookville wrote: »

delaney and harendy both miss out this weekend to serve their suspension instead of the first leinster match so both teams will be happy with that.
The panel must be fairly light at the moment including fringe players Darren brennan,aylward,lennon,scanlon,lawlor,kevin kelly,bill sheehan,buckley,tom aylward ,mikey carey all injured,robbie fitzpatrick pulled his hamstring in a recent challenge match against the shamrocks.
obviously some of the above might not be good enough but it would of being good to get a bit of game time into them.
hopefully he wont go back to padraig at 3 maybe tommy might start there this weekend.the result of this match is pretty much irrelevant and probably the last game for a few on the panel.

This article in the Independent says that a decision still has to be made regarding the match that they will miss.

yea i see that today alright.yesterdays report was differant

Hawkeye6

Now is a good time to look back on the league. We should all know at this stage the playing field is LEVEL. Our recent period of dominance is over, that’s not to say it won’t happen again. The All-Ireland can be won by ANY of 8 counties. Those who say it will take Kilkenny 10 years to win another All-Ireland could well be right. But the fact that the playing field is Level literally means we could actually win it this year just as easily. I guarantee that none of the hot air balloons will put their house on us Not winning it in the same way as I would Not back against Any of the other 7 (5 from Munster, Galway and Wexford).

Before the league started, the “experts” were talking about winning your Home games. Kilkenny had 2 Home games. Kilkenny won two games. Yes, lost to the All-Ireland Champions at home, Limerick, who most reckon are ahead of the posse at this moment. Not a huge issue if you were to lose at home. However, we did beat our greatest rivals Tipp at their Home of hurling. Tipp in turn hammered Cork who beat Limerick etc etc. Overall, the final table reflects that level playing field.

If the “Head to Head” rule was applied consistently we would be playing a quarter final at home to Galway in Nowlan Park this weekend having beaten both Cork and Tipperary. Unfortunately, the GAA powers struggle with this type of consistency and it’s not going to happen. Instead we are going to play the most pointless national league fixture in the history of GAA. So a group of six will be divided by a combination of head to head, score difference and the distinct possibility of penalties/frees. OMG!!! GAA CCCC, cop on just use head to head or score difference across the board. Head to head would have been nice for us this year.

As regards the second half last Sunday. In three out of the four major hurling games, the team that played with the wind in the second half came from behind to win. I have no doubt Offaly and Galway would have been a lot hotter favourites than us in Wexford Park. People who weren’t in any of these games physically would have no idea of the strength of the wind. Even our All-Star goalkeeper who we know has a phenomenal strike struggled to get pucks past the 45. The only team that succeeded in taking advantage of the first half wind was Tipperary. It’s the age old debate, do you play with the wind in the first half or second? 75% of results Sunday point to the second, though the majority of managers I know go the opposite way.

Having said all that we need to learn something and in my opinion as I stated after the Limerick (I’m sure people will go back to the post), the root of the potential problem is actually the clubs. It’s not a huge issue at the moment but if not addressed will go a long way to help the lads predicting the 10 year famine for Kilkenny.

The 3 counties we lost to (Clare, Limerick and Wexford) are the ones who are the best at the short game with the Football style off the shoulder support play and non-existent traditional positions. Even “wingers” are used (note Kevin Foley’s role). I said it before and I say it again, our players are not used to this type of game at club level. Solutions.,, play more football OR get rid of the traditional coaches/managers who are doing the club circuit in Kilkenny and bring in more advanced thinkers, especially in underage setups. It’s time to smell the roses on this one and stop blaming the county management. Proof of the pudding will be the upcoming club matches and see how many clubs will play this type of game. The Kilkenny club version of the short puck out is, hit the ball to the unmarked corner back who will sky it up to the forwards which the goalkeeper could have done in the first place while the traditional oul fellas are roaring in from the sideline “Cut out that *@!%!!!”. Instead Club supporters need to patient and when the cornerback gets it, the fullback needs to start moving in support, far cry from the traditional full back role. Watch the upcoming club matches and tell me I’m wrong. If I am, that means the change is coming, which is good. What clubs are doing this? What coaches/managers are applying it? I’m sure people have been at club challenge matches. What are they seeing?

Another obvious concern is the quality of free taker in the county. When TJ goes, who seriously is going to take over those duties? Spoke with a development squad coach and he says over the last few years the quality of striking of most players when they come in from the club is terrible. They struggle to get any distance at all or accuracy into the strike even if under no pressure. He put it down to the short cone based drills, the use of smaller juvenile pitches with movable juvenile goals and small Astro turf pitches which are popping up all over the place for younger players. Players are no longer challenged to hit the ball long distances. A lot of development squad work is going into striking which should be a club basic. It does surprise that there is no proper analysis done on this forum of club teams, setups and structures. Yet all our county players get the majority of their coaching from the clubs. These are just a sample of the club issues, but this post is getting too long.

Finally, talking of Clubs. This time last year I was very critical of the CPA which I said was just disorganised hot air or words to that affect. A year later has anyone any thoughts on whether there was substance in what I claimed? Any of those people who said they were joined the CPA wish to update us on what is happening?

greenspurs

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Another obvious concern is the quality of free taker in the county. When TJ goes, who seriously is going to take over those duties? Spoke with a development squad coach and he says over the last few years the quality of striking of most players when they come in from the club is terrible. They struggle to get any distance at all or accuracy into the strike even if under no pressure. He put it down to the short cone based drills, the use of smaller juvenile pitches with movable juvenile goals and small Astro turf pitches which are popping up all over the place for younger players. Players are no longer challenged to hit the ball long distances. A lot of development squad work is going into striking which should be a club basic. It does surprise that there is no proper analysis done on this forum of club teams, setups and structures. Yet all our county players get the majority of their coaching from the clubs. These are just a sample of the club issues, but this post is getting too long.

I was only thinking that watching the game on Sunday, while watching Scruff running 60-70 yards up the pitch to take a free. I was thinking "there must be someone amongst the outfield players able to strike a free" !?

"Players are no longer challenged to hit the ball long distances".
But, isn't that because of the tactic of playing a 'short game' and 'running off the shoulder' as well?

To be honest , I was thinking the opposite, My opinion was that players can now score from the half way line during play, and that more midfielders and half backs are scoring points due to their power and precision.

Hawkeye6

greenspurs wrote: »

"Players are no longer challenged to hit the ball long distances".
But, isn't that because of the tactic of playing a 'short game' and 'running off the shoulder' as well?

Reasonable point, well made.
How many club half backs are you seeing scoring long range points?

The way I see it, Kilkenny are go Long/Short. Generally the one person who can hit long ball sending it down to the forward, the goalie (or the corner back who can hit it). Then its tips and taps around the forwards, still very little running off the shoulder.
Limerick for example are Short/Long. Working it out of defence to the point where their half backs/midfielders get a scoring opportunity from distance.

I accept its a very general analysis.

Joe Daly

mullinr2 wrote: »

And what I mean by ten years I mean from 2015. We have gone 3 so far. Is there an All Ireland in our current panel. Me thinks not.

We have not won U21 all Ireland since 2008, that tells its own story.

Cornerback1

greenspurs wrote: »

I was only thinking that watching the game on Sunday, while watching Scruff running 60-70 yards up the pitch to take a free. I was thinking "there must be someone amongst the outfield players able to strike a free" !?

"Players are no longer challenged to hit the ball long distances".
But, isn't that because of the tactic of playing a 'short game' and 'running off the shoulder' as well?

To be honest , I was thinking the opposite, My opinion was that players can now score from the half way line during play, and that more midfielders and half backs are scoring points due to their power and precision.

Sliotar is a lot lighter these days also.

citykat

Joe Daly wrote: »

We have not won U21 all Ireland since 2008, that tells its own story.

What story might that be? How many senior AIs have we won since 2008? For all their U21 AIs Clare have one senior to show for it. For that they still needed a referee to help get them over the line.

Grueller

citykat wrote: »

What story might that be? How many senior AIs have we won since 2008? For all their U21 AIs Clare have one senior to show for it. For that they still needed a referee to help get them over the line.

Were your recent all irelands not won off of players in the main pre dating 2008?

PooPooPooPoo

Kilkenny are currently even money to beat Cork on Saturday. I think that's a bet and a half.

Realt Dearg Sec

PooPooPooPoo wrote: »

Kilkenny are currently even money to beat Cork on Saturday. I think that's a bet and a half.

You'd be as well betting on the coin toss. They'll both probably field experimental teams, try things out they wouldn't normally, and it's hard to tell how seriously either team will be taking it.

brookville

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

PooPooPooPoo wrote: »

Kilkenny are currently even money to beat Cork on Saturday. I think that's a bet and a half.

You'd be as well betting on the coin toss. They'll both probably field experimental teams, try things out they wouldn't normally, and it's hard to tell how seriously either team will be taking it.

i doubt either team will have much intrest in it and without any team named its very hard to make a prediction but kk under cody will always try to win.
hopefully we will see all the fringe players getting a run out but it will probably lack intensity and be a small crowd.Id like to see wallace,michael cody,brassil and browne getting some gametime while conor martin,pat lyng and conor o shea have see very little action so far

KrustyUCC

dastardly00 wrote: »

This article in the Independent says that a decision still has to be made regarding the match that they will miss.

Was told that Harnedy is eligible for Saturday but suspended for Tipp championship game

Presume it will be the same with Delaney

Neewollah

Suspension set up in the GAA is a farce!!!

brookville

KrustyUCC wrote: »

dastardly00 wrote: »

This article in the Independent says that a decision still has to be made regarding the match that they will miss.

Was told that Harnedy is eligible for Saturday but suspended for Tipp championship game

Presume it will be the same with Delaney

I see that reported on a few websites now.dissapointing news for us.

brookville

KrustyUCC wrote: »

dastardly00 wrote: »

This article in the Independent says that a decision still has to be made regarding the match that they will miss.

Was told that Harnedy is eligible for Saturday but suspended for Tipp championship game

Presume it will be the same with Delaney

I see that reported on a few websites now.dissapointing news for us.

Realt Dearg Sec

I don't understand the logic of that decision. What rule is it based on? Why would this match not count? I can't help but think they're just making it up as they go along. It's the same with things like replays/extra time, and deciding positions based on points or head to head. These things seem to just be decided arbitrarily, from competition to competition, and often the rule is only made up when a problem arises (even a problem as predictable as a game ending in a draw at club level). Why the GAA can't just have a set of standards for these things, and stick with them, I'll never know.