Eir rural FTTH thread II

Andy From Sligo

I bet there are still people out there (if money is no object) and even if they would get on perfectly fine for their needs at a 150mbps package that they will still order the 1gbps service - I have been repairing computers for years and have known people who could have ordered up a dell PC for example at around 400 quid for checking their email and going on facebook and twitter and writing the odd letter getting a PC costing double that and more and the amount of time I get in a computer with 1TB hard drive (when the cheaper/entry level ones may have had 350-500GB and they have only used like 20gb on it, and never ever use anywhere near to 1TB of disk space - and they are like " well I wanted to pay more and get a good PC with plenty of disk space and processing power and plenty of RAM ... to check my emails and surf the net

KOR101

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm constantly surprised by people expecting 1Gb download on their phones and laptops etc and having to explain to them the max they can get on a wireless connection to their router is around 200mb if their device even supports those speeds. And not just old people mind
And then finding out they only ever use wifi and asking why did you order the 1gb product then? Very common, even the 300mb is a waste of money for them

What......well I've got over 500mb on my phone. (SIRO, and not that I need it or anything)

tuxy

Well it's no surprise really, when Eir had their DNS problems recently the majority of posts on twitter were people asking what happened to Eir's WIFI.
You can't expect general consumers to understand the technologies involved and marketing is very effective so if the advert says 1gbit all they think is "great that sounds fast" and once youtube and netflix works flawlessly for everyone in the house they will think they had made a great decision going with the fastest package.

fritzelly

KOR101 wrote: »

What......well I've got over 500mb on my phone. (SIRO, and not that I need it or anything)

Ideal circumstances, the right phone etc yes you can get higher but the reality is 200mb max is the norm
Pointless being a foot from the router and getting great speeds then complaining when you are in another room and you aren't

tsue921i8wljb3

tuxy wrote: »

Well it's no surprise really, when Eir had their DNS problems recently the majority of posts on twitter were people asking what happened to Eir's WIFI.
You can't expect general consumers to understand the technologies involved and marketing is very effective so if the advert says 1gbit all they think is "great that sounds fast" and once youtube and netflix works flawlessly for everyone in the house they will think they had made a great decision going with the fastest package.

I find it amazing how the word WiFi has become synonymous with broadband. I suppose it's a reflection of how people connect these days.

fritzelly

Dominique Loud Waistband wrote: »

I find it amazing how the word WiFi has become synonymous with broadband. I suppose it's a reflection of how people connect these days.

Very true, have many on the phone saying I ordered wifi and I'm like you mean broadband and they're like no wifi. Ok!

Andy From Sligo

fritzelly wrote: »

Very true, have many on the phone saying I ordered wifi and I'm like you mean broadband and they're like no wifi. Ok!

ah let them have their day, as long as we know what they mean . I often ask my customers "Do you know how much RAM is presently in your computer?" and they say to me "its around 3 years old and its got 500 gigabytes of RAM"

tuxy

fritzelly wrote: »

Very true, have many on the phone saying I ordered wifi and I'm like you mean broadband and they're like no wifi. Ok!

WIFI is mass produced in China and shipped in large containers to the port in Dublin where Eir send it down the wires to your modem.

fritzelly

tuxy wrote: »

WIFI is mass produced in China and shipped in large containers to the port in Dublin where Eir send it down the wires to your modem.

LOL - very funny video, alas some people probably think it's true. Sure we ship the water from down the country to Dublin as it is anyway

Andy From Sligo

tuxy wrote: »

WIFI is mass produced in China and shipped in large containers to the port in Dublin where Eir send it down the wires to your modem.

does it take 3-4 weeks and go through customs?

tuxy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

does it take 3-4 weeks and go through customs?

The WIFI is pre-load using a sophisticated algorithm with all data that an Irish person is expected to want to access for the coming months. Customs does random checks on some containers to inspect for illegal activity.
The data is in mandarin, that's why you need a modem to translate it into English.
Unfortunately at the current rate of WIFI consumption the world is expected to deplete all resources need to create it by 2064

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

depends on the upload they require. But for Joe Blogs the 150 Mbit/s package is going to more than plenty for a long long time.

OpenEIR are already planning a 100M/20M profile. Because even that's enough for most.

/M

I wish they would provide a symetrical home package.
alongside 150/30 ....... maybe offer 75/75 or something close.
That would suit a lot of users I suspect

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I wish they would provide a symetrical home package.
alongside 150/30 ....... maybe offer 75/75 or something close.
That would suit a lot of users I suspect

If you need those upload speeds then you are not a residential user. BW still costs money and if you have need for fast uploads as well as downloads then you are basically doubling the cost to the provider.

Johnboy1951

fritzelly wrote: »

If you need those upload speeds then you are not a residential user. BW still costs money and if you have need for fast uploads as well as downloads then you are basically doubling the cost to the provider.

Your logic is flawed.

The BW is only counted when it is used.
I would use no more, but the uploads would be faster.

My downloads also do not reach a constant 150 ....... ever!

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

If you need those upload speeds then you are not a residential user. BW still costs money and if you have need for fast uploads as well as downloads then you are basically doubling the cost to the provider.

Not really. There are providers that always have operated symmetric. Providers buy their bandwidth symmetric.

And while the likes of ADSL, cable-tv broadband and half-duplex technologies have created this uneven split of download and upload, it makes no sense anymore.

Also, we used to use more download than upload. We still sort of do. But upload has massively increased in later years. More than download. Reason being: media, cloud-sync, backup, real-time communications over the internet (VoIP, video-chat, conferencing).

Large upload of files. Database, graphics, data.

Especially with working from home. Those are not quite considered business. But they're certainly not residential anymore.

/M

fritzelly

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Your logic is flawed.

The BW is only counted when it is used.
I would use no more, but the uploads would be faster.

My downloads also do not reach a constant 150 ....... ever!

Not flawed at all - no reason a residential user should ever need those upload speeds.
It's always been par for the course that your upload speed was always about 10% of your download.
Want faster uploads then buy the more expensive package.

fritzelly

Marlow wrote: »

Not really. There are providers that always have operated symmetric. Providers buy their bandwidth symmetric.

And while the likes of ADSL, cable-tv broadband and half-duplex technologies have created this uneven split of download and upload, it makes no sense anymore.

Also, we used to use more download than upload. We still sort of do. But upload has massively increased in later years. More than download. Reason being: media, cloud-sync, backup, real-time communications over the internet (VoIP, video-chat, conferencing).

Large upload of files. Database, graphics, data.

Especially with working from home. Those are not quite considered business. But they're certainly not residential anymore.

/M

Those uploads happen over time and invariably its only ever updating small sequential changes.
If you need a consistent 100+Mb connection then you are not a normal residential user.

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote:

I wish they would provide a symetrical home package.
alongside 150/30 ....... maybe offer 75/75 or something close.
That would suit a lot of users I suspect

fritzelly wrote: »

If you need those upload speeds then you are not a residential user. BW still costs money and if you have need for fast uploads as well as downloads then you are basically doubling the cost to the provider.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Your logic is flawed.

The BW is only counted when it is used.
I would use no more, but the uploads would be faster.

My downloads also do not reach a constant 150 ....... ever!

fritzelly wrote: »

Not flawed at all - no reason a residential user should ever need those upload speeds.
It's always been par for the course that your upload speed was always about 10% of your download.
Want faster uploads then buy the more expensive package.

Definitely flawed.
It has nothing at all to do with the BW used, as I explained.
That you cannot see that is most surprising!

Who are you to decide what any residential user should or should not need?

This is more of 'take what I give you' and not what you want!

Heck based on your BW accounting, I get 150 +30 presently === 180
I mentioned 75 + 75 = 150 in my post.

So it should be a saving for the provider based on your method of calculation.!

Yeah, right!

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

If you need a consistent 100+Mb connection then you are not a normal residential user.

I wasn't saying you are. But if you look at the market 10+ years back.

Eir 512/128 or 1024/128.

Other (often fixed wireless providers) 512/512, 1M/1M, 2M/2M.

On residential packages. 10% is certainly not enough for upload. 20% is adequate. And some providers will simply offer symmetric. It's also easier on the provisioning side. And it's certainly an advantage on the marketing side.

End-users appreciated it (mostly tech-savvy ones) and depending on the last mile-infrastructure, it's not really a problem to the ISP.

Fun-part here: SIRO actually offers symmetric (business packages) on their GPON system. For a price, of course. OpenEIR doesn't. They'd loose too much of their very expensive NGN products.

/M

fritzelly

All that bandwidth "dedicated" to allowing symmetrical upload speeds would/could have a detrimental affect on the download speeds/network. Traffic still has to be managed and allowing something like that is allowing an unknown to enter your network

As you say Marlow if you want it (from Siro) then a business package at an inflated price
One of the reasons why lots of ISP's throttle known torrent IP's because it can kill their data flows

Are you saying the swear word mentioning wireless providers? Reality is they know those figures are not real but good for the sales pitch (do you call it a sales pitch advertising 2M U/D?)

Marlow

fritzelly wrote: »

Are you saying the swear word mentioning wireless providers? Reality is they know those figures are not real but good for the sales pitch (do you call it a sales pitch advertising 2M U/D?)

Fixed wireless providers. Big difference to wireless providers.

The majority of fixed wireless providers operate a managed network. Sometimes on a shoestring budget, but still delivering a service, that anyone else has failed to deliver.

There are certain national providers, that have tainted that in the way they operate. That does not reflect the industry.

As for the core network, the distribution network and the edge of the network, it makes zero difference. Bandwidth world-wide is traded full-duplex. And the more symmetric you are as a carrier, the better your pricing actually is. Assymetric behavior hurts your bottom line when buying upstream. Content providers can often buy the same bandwidth at 30-50% of the price, that access providers pay. For the same piece of the pie.

A lot of access providers have not grasped that vital fact.

The problem is for access providers, where the access network is indeed assymetric. That is ADSL, VDSL and cable-operators, mainly.

Fixed wireless operators (on a managed access network) and FTTH operators can operate symmetric, if they wish to. It's all down to the quality of service, that you deliver. And the fact, that your split down/up is completely different from traditional providers means that you can buy upstream at better pricing.

This is why "some" operators have seen it as an advantage also to engage in hosting. To tip the scales.

/M

babi-hrse

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm constantly surprised by people expecting 1Gb download on their phones and laptops etc and having to explain to them the max they can get on a wireless connection to their router is around 200mb if their device even supports those speeds. And not just old people mind
And then finding out they only ever use wifi and asking why did you order the 1gb product then? Very common, even the 300mb is a waste of money for them

Ah yeah I've been asked that many a time after an install. I'm not getting what I paid for. Then they suspect I did something wrong. It's Boolean it will work or it won't work. After they plug it in wired even I'm surprised to see just over 1000mbs
Completely unusable unless you have a desktop torrenting 100 things at once.
Time will make me eat my words

Andy From Sligo

I was one of the first ones to avail of fixed Wireless (Fastcom) when it arrived in our area years ago - a symmetric 3mbps Down and 3Mbps up (I did have a 56k modem running at 40k down and going on after 6pm and at weekends, imagine the joyfulness of getting 3mbps anytime!) .... roll onto now and I seem to have asymmetric 11mbps down and 1mbps up .. I never have asked why that is though these days - i would welcome 11mbps up though these days .. ah well FTTH coming soon :rolleyes: - hello 30mbps Up

Marlow

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I was one of the first ones to avail of fixed Wireless (Fastcom) when it arrived in our area years ago - a symmetric 3mbps Down and 3Mbps up (I did have a 56k modem running at 40k down and going on after 6pm and at weekends, imagine the joyfulness of getting 3mbps anytime!) .... roll onto now and I seem to have asymmetric 11mbps down and 1mbps up .. I never have asked why that is though these days - i would welcome 11mbps up though these days .. ah well FTTH coming soon :rolleyes: - hello 30mbps Up

1 mbit/s up is pathetic. Here's the thing: traditional fixed wireless systems do suffer from contention on upstream first. It is a half duplex system, but it also has to do with the way, it transmits (cpu power of the embedded boards, depending on how the provider build their network, ya da ya da ya da).

So, as fixed wireless provider had cope with the market without having the budget to buy into market of more capable hardware, the scale tips. So they become more assymetric on the access network, but can in theory hurt themselves more on the edge. (typically not, they don't matter much in the big picture).

So your 10+ mbit/s download came at a price: less upload.

Now, by applying new technology, that could have been different again. With the more modern systems, it's usually weighed at 75%/25% ... but the only reason the provider has to do that, is because they've got no access to licensed frequencies for access. And because demand has gone nuts.

In their distrbution, core and edge network it has no consequences.

Bottom line: symmetric can be done, but comes at a price point. As above pointed out: if you're not striving for gbit/s speeds an inventive ISP certainly can give you symmetric speeds at an attractive price point. If they choose to do so. And if the market for it is there.

It doesn't have to be business pricing. It requires a well managed network and a bit of investment. And less consumers pushing for speeds they can't utiilize anyhow.

Since that last thing isn't going to happen basically buy your internet connection based on the upload speed (which some ISPs don't even advertise). You know what you get then. The thing is: if your upload is saturated, no amount of download matters. You can't use it at that point. This is actually where sub-standard ADSL lines really become crap.

/M

adocholiday

adocholiday wrote: »

Hi all, can anyone tell me what fibre cabling looks like on a pole? The pole outside our house has what looks like a big black spool of wire on it with a pretty thick cable coming off it. Would that be fibre cabling?

I have uploaded an album to imgur if someone might be so kind as to check. If it's of any relevance the sticker on the spool like thing says RDM9-00714C.

Album link: http://imgur.com/a/EJXQWpy

rabwaygal

Hi Folks,

So DP boxes were installed on my road at the end of August. Any idea how long it takes to go live?

Johnboy1951

adocholiday wrote: »

I have uploaded an album to imgur if someone might be so kind as to check. If it's of any relevance the sticker on the spool like thing says RDM9-00714C.

Album link: http://imgur.com/a/EJXQWpy

You should have linked the image rather than the album

https://i.imgur.com/ubmZuRR.jpg

That is similar to images already posted by others of a FTTH DP on a pole.

cnocbui

rabwaygal wrote: »

Hi Folks,

So DP boxes were installed on my road at the end of August. Any idea how long it takes to go live?

It was about 3 months for me.

Andy From Sligo

rabwaygal wrote: »

Hi Folks,

So DP boxes were installed on my road at the end of August. Any idea how long it takes to go live?

ours were put up mid July i think .. still not live

Andy From Sligo

have there been situations where FTTH service can go live in an area before a cabinet in the area go VDSL/FTTC service have I that right? -

I used to think that the cabinet must go FTTC before FTTH DP's work .. but i cannot remember if I read it (might be on here) where a village went FTTH even though the FTTC wasnt live. - (or I could have dreamed it as well )