Apple pulls out of data center in Athenry due to fcuked up planning and gob****es

Billy86

Rulmeq wrote: »

Even now people on here are trying to trivialise the loss in terms of jobs, and the potential for the community. Even if it was "only" 150 jobs (or less), that is a massive number of jobs for a rural community, how many other employers in the area "only" employ 150 people. This also has the double whammy for the rest of Ireland, the message is clear, don't bother trying to invest outside of Dublin.

As for the energy requirements Apple have committed to being carbon neutral in all its data centres in the next few years, so they would have been investing in renewable energy here as well. This could have turned into a massive benefit for Ireland when it comes to the fines we're going to have to pay when we fail to meet our carbon emissions targets.

The 150 jobs would probably have resulted in the same number again in the community in shops, pubs and other service industry, so even if it was "only" 150 jobs, it would still have had a big impact on the economy of Athenry.

Athenry's population is 3,900, meaning 150 jobs is approximately a direct 5% drop in unemployment (of course simplifying the matter by assuming all would be from Athenry and making an estimate that about 25% are young/retired/disabled). Then as you mentioned you've got the indirect jobs in the area that would be created to service the staff therein. It really is ridiculous seeing people try to claim that would not have a beneficial impact on the community.

wexie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But where were they based? Not that many networj engineers want to live in Athenry and the work can be done remotely.

some of the work can be done remotely (actually lots of it) but there will always be people needed on the ground. That's why 'only' 150 jobs because really running a place that size would take hundreds. The 150 would have been the ones actually needed to be physically there.

Boggles

They were granted full permission 6/7 months ago, correct?

What has taken so long for the announcement that they were pulling out?

Also would they have contributed to this if they got the go ahead?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-faces-annual-eu-energy-fines-of-600m-36857141.html

No we probably would have brought the EU to court to make sure they don't pay. :rolleyes:

weldoninhio

cnocbui wrote: »

Nope. Just the one data centre which was set to be expanded as the need arose.

Sorry it was the first phase of 8 rather than 8 data centres. So the first phase would have used 6mw growing to 30mw. Not 240mw as you were peddling earlier??

MonsterCookie

Estrella Salty Leak wrote: »

Fiery mutant wrote: »

“Construction of the first phase of eight promised to generate 300 temporary jobs, with up to 150 permanent staff required to run it”.

I'd be in favour of the data centre but that 150 number sounds way off.

On site there would only be maintenance staff, security, etc. Day to day these things shouldn't require must effort. Open to correction but any data centre I've ever been in was pretty sparsely populated.

The management of the data centre would most likely be done centrally from wherever they manage their other centres.

Job announcements like these are easy to make. Nobody every follows up and it's not a firm commitment.

But let's say it's just 30 full time jobs locally. That in itself is a good thing.

There’s also the spin off employment that is generated by having such a facility. For example, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, painters, catering.

Hurrache

cnocbui wrote: »

It was at a hearing. Does the article quote Apple responding to that and calling it a nonsense?

Where does the figure come from? I can post that it will only use 1%. Without any contradictory posts from Apple, does that make it true?

I'm reading 30MW from your own post.

It is understood that the data centre, which will come online in 2017, will have a 6MW requirement and this will grow to 30MW when it is fully operational. This could grow to 240MW in 10 to 15 years’ time.

Beta Ray Bill

Estrella Salty Leak wrote: »

I'd be in favour of the data centre but that 150 number sounds way off.

On site there would only be maintenance staff, security, etc. Day to day these things shouldn't require must effort. Open to correction but any data centre I've ever been in was pretty sparsely populated.

The management of the data centre would most likely be done centrally from wherever they manage their other centres.

Job announcements like these are easy to make. Nobody every follows up and it's not a firm commitment.

But let's say it's just 30 full time jobs locally. That in itself is a good thing.

phunkadelic wrote: »

Data centres don't provide many jobs. The only meaningful number would be during construction, so temporary.

There were to be 8 buildings.
2 engineers per building working 8 hours shifts around the clock.
2*8*3 = 48

Security: 200 hectare site would need at least 5 security guards working 8 hours shifts around the clock
5*3=15

Non Tech staff (Reception, Management, HR, Building maintenance, Cleaners etc)
Probably another 20 or so people

There's probably other stuff I haven't thought of that needs staff for s site of that scale too
So it's not to far off 150

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not just that. It's reputational damage to the country. Don't plan a project here...

Bingo!

Don't plan to build anything in Rural Ireland, because if you do you'll get bogged down in a planning permission mess.
It's a massive hit for all potential business.

Brian McDonagh has some neck, the sense of entitlement is unreal. (I wanted to build a DC but got refused so Apple should use their sway to buy my site off me and build a data centre!? WTF!?)

Allan Daly a US native... (who wasn't even born here) and Sinead Fitzpatrick a Solicitor both of whom live over 10km away from the site as far as I can see, felt they could object, which is ridiculous

Great thing about Rural Ireland is that everyone knows everyone else
I hope Allan and Sinead enjoy having to travel Galway city now for their groceries etc, because I doubt they'll be welcome in Athenry

EdgeCase

What this does is make it less likely that you’ll get any investment into that region, rather than Ireland in general.

They’ve chased Apple back home to Cork basically and I think you’ll just see Dublin and Cork pulling in most of these kinds of facilities long term.

The argument about CO2 emissions and strain on the grid is valid, but the other side of it is that we would have been building out wind power, solar and other renewables, which would have had an economy of scale that means they’d have benefited the rest of the country’s homes and businesses too and you’d have had big investment into international and diverse fiber links due to the big boost in traffic and need for multiple routes.

However, this is a political and public policy choice. You can’t say Ireland’s authorities side with the big corps. That’s for sure and in many respects, that’s a good thing.

I just think however, it’s a shame that it’s over something as benign as this.

cnocbui

Hurrache wrote: »

Was the land zoned industrial or commercial? Personally I don't see the issue with it, especially given the 2 examples I already provided.

The land is/was a Coilte forrest surrounded by farmland.

crashplan

Who is bank rolling the 3 main objectors? The cost of a judicial review starts around 400000

Hurrache

cnocbui wrote: »

The land is/was a Coilte forrest surrounded by farmland.

So it will eventually be harvested and Atheny will be left with a huge visual scar on the landscape for a few years.

Formosa

whiskeyman wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Can you tell us about your intellectual disability?

Really?

Just because my opinion differs, I really don't think you need to stoop to that level.

Post reported.

" Post reported", well done crybaby.

This report post function should be done away with, it might see off some of the losers.

h0neybadger

So because that prick bought a site in Wicklow for 22m, and wanted it to be used for a data centre, he objected to the site in Galway.... ? Was his intention to convince Apple to move to their plans to Wicklow instead?
And let me guess, he would sell the land for a hefty profit?

But instead, Apple have pulled out?

This guy is a complete and total geebag

cnocbui

weldoninhio wrote: »

Sorry it was the first phase of 8 rather than 8 data centres. So the first phase would have used 6mw growing to 30mw. Not 240mw as you were peddling earlier??

Just stop.

Another appeal calculates that, if all eight halls are built, the complex would increase Ireland’s electricity consumption by more than 8 percent. of Ireland’s electricity. The first hall would use 30MW, but if all halls were built, the site would need 240MW. That works out at around seven percent of Ireland’s total electric power capacity of 3.5GW, but engineer Allan Daly points out that data centers operate continuously so the actual energy usage would be a higher proportion: “It is safe to say that Apple’s data centre will be the largest single user of electricity within the Republic of Ireland, by far.”

http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/design-build/apples-irish-data-center-faces-new-hearing/96069.fullarticle

the whole year inn

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/engineer-who-objects-to-apple-centre-says-power-demands-underestimated-1.3322548%3fmode=amp

This is the main protestor.
The man in Wicklow wasn't even in the Supreme court as far as I know.So why are people bring him up?

He was only a chancer but Daly is an educated man and from what I read about it,he had some valid points that needed to be addressed.
It's a real shame it didn't get built but I don't blame Daly what so ever,I blame how long it takes to reach a decision in the courts.

He another article that's a decent read.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/vbzng8/one-man-in-a-tiny-irish-town-could-derail-apples-plans-for-europe

wexie

cnocbui wrote: »

Just stop.


http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/design-build/apples-irish-data-center-faces-new-hearing/96069.fullarticle

You realise that's the same Allan Daly as the Allan Daly doing the objecting right?

wexie

cnocbui wrote: »

Just stop.

And, just to clarify, are you arguing that this data center shouldn't have been built in Athenry? Or just not built period?

Cause it won't have used any less power anywhere else....

Cantona's Collars

I remember when the Shell to Sea campaign was in full swing. There was a guy who lives about 15 minutes away from me that travelled to the site to protest every weekend. I'm in Wexford.
It's people like this that if they had their way we'd still be stuck in the 50's.
Some years ago I got the job of removing newly installed road safety signs in Galway as they "ruined the view" of one person. We found out that said person was actually a judge who couldn't even see the road from their house.That's what we have to deal with in this country.

Turbohymac

Turbohymac wrote: »

Regardless of amount of jobs being offered. Until our government and revenue start actually taxing these large companies properly. While they actually do create jobs it is actually robbing all the other taxpaying residents here & starving much needed revenue for much upgrades to our basic infrastructure.

Absolutely clueless comment, we need to be giving them more incentives not even considering taking away incentives. They are employing massive amounts of people and especially highly skilled workers are the main source of employment. P*ssing off these companies would finish Ireland.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But where were they based? Not that many networj engineers want to live in Athenry and the work can be done remotely.

What are you basing that on? There is huge amounts of people from places like co. Galway who are forced to work in Dublin or other cities who would jump at the chance to get work locally. Athenry is an easy commute from any part of co. Galway so even if you don't live there its still creating jobs for people and giving them the opportunity to move back to their home areas.

This is exactly the type of place we need to be creating jobs, away from a busy urban area, easy commute for people with no traffic, close to a motorway meaning people can easily commute there even from far away but also lots of opportunity to live locally and much cheaper than in a city. A town close by which would massively benefit from a big job boost like this both during construction and when its up and running (shops, pubs, cafes, restaurants, quarries, hardware stores etc etc etc).

cnocbui

OSI wrote: »

So it's actual requirements when built were 30MW. Not the 300MW you claimed earlier. You're moving the goals posts so much you'd nearly score a goal in Croker taking a shot from the Aviva.

Clearly there is no point in posting links, is there? Why provide sources when people read them and are then dishonest about what they say?

Here is another - go argue with a senior engineer and a professor of Engineering who is also a consultant. They must be incompetent and lying about it.

Daly, a senior engineer at Sierra Research, starts his letter by saying that the electrical power demand for Apple's data centre is "enormous," before going on to calculate how much electricity the data centre will consume by the time all eight data halls have been built. It's worth noting that the full build out would take around 15 years, during which time Ireland will likely increase the amount of electricity available on its grid.

"It is safe to say that Apple's data centre will be the largest single user of electricity within the Republic of Ireland — by far" writes Daly.

The "Environmental Impact Statement" that Apple produced before submitting its planning application to Galway County Council gives an indication as to how much electricity the data centre will use. It states:

30MW of power required for operation of the proposed development, rising to 240MW if full built out — major power consumption.

In his letter, Daly goes on to calculate what he believes to be the annual electricity consumption of the data centre.

"Because data centres must operate continuously (8,760 hours per year), Apple's annual electrical energy usage is estimated to be 262.8 gigawatt hours (GWh) for the proposed development of one data hall, and 2,102 GWh for the full build out of eight data halls. In comparison, the entire Republic of Ireland consumed 25, 780 GWh in 2014."

Daly includes a number of footnotes in his letter to show where his figures have been sourced. He goes on to highlight how one data hall will increase electrical energy usage across the Republic of Ireland by 1%, while eight data halls will increase it by 8.2%.

Professor Ian Bitterlin, a consulting engineer at Critical Facilities Consulting and a visiting lecturer at Leeds University, told Business Insider that the 8.2% increase in Ireland's total electricity consumption sounds plausible.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/apple-data-centre-could-increase-irelands-electricity-consumption-by-82-2016-4

zom

Hurrache wrote: »

If you knew that site, and the massive traffic and parking problems already in that small area, you'd understand why.

You and @Flex seems to be first NIMBYsm defenders here !!

Evd-Burner

I have worked in a few Data Centers and from experience I can tell you that they likely would have employed 150 Apple staff (FTE's) but through permanent onsite contractors the real number would be more than triple that. Then you off all of the temporary contractors that will be constantly in and out to do work on the site which is never ending. The same way there are a tonne of contractors in Intel.

Then the site would also need other supplies/services, ordering food for meetings and hotel rooms for visitors coming over form other DC's worldwide which is a constant thing.

Athenry is seriously missing out.

cnocbui

wexie wrote: »

You realise that's the same Allan Daly as the Allan Daly doing the objecting right?

Apple's own submission pretty much agrees with him, so the fact he is objecting doesn't make his technical analysis invalid.

wexie wrote: »

And, just to clarify, are you arguing that this data center shouldn't have been built in Athenry? Or just not built period?

Cause it won't have used any less power anywhere else....

I think it possibly should have gone ahead, so long as Ireland didn't get fined for failing to meet EU energy usage commitments, but I think Apple was very foolish to want to establish this project where they did.

If this project had pushed Ireland's energy and CO2 usage up so much we copped EU fines in the hundreds of millions, do you think it should have gone ahead?

KildareP

The power argument to rule against this development is (was?) actually very short sighted.

Datacentre's are very predictable, steady, 24-hour consumers of power, 365 days of the year.
You can literally predict to the individual rack cabinet how much your power consumption will be.
Apple and the likes will normally pay extremely hefty fees to connect to the grid, part of which is to subsidise Eirgrid/ESB Networks to put in place any necessary grid upgrades further downstream.

This is a total win-win:
- Apple get clean, reliable power
- ESB/Eirgrid get a rapid return on their investment, because they have a steady, paying customer who is paying for capacity 24/7/365
- The power industry here can take advantage of economics of scale, as they can implement much larger, multi-GW scale upgrades, then they may have otherwise been able to sanction without a steady consumer lined up
- The country as a whole benefits from an upgraded, more resilient, higher capacity grid

Win-win, no?

Because the biggest threat I can see to our electrical grid over the next decade is the electric car. Why?

Taking a Nissan Leaf, as an example, to do a full charge at high speed consumes 6.6kW for ~3 hours, tapering off for the last hour.
The Irish Government wants 10% of our road vehicle fleet to be electric by 2020 - the number being floated equated to about 250,000 vehicles.
Assuming the majority of people drive to work in the morning and then drive home in the evening, and everyone starts to arrive home at about 6PM and plugs their car in for the evening, from 6PM, 250,000 cars drawing 6.6kW is 1.65GW, or 1650MW, or >5 times the proposed maximum draw of Apple.

And:
- this power is completely unpredictable, not everyone will arrive home at 6PM, not everyone will charge at home, what if there's a massive crash on a major motorway and people are delayed for hours?
- ESB Networks/Eirgrid have to plan to meet this capacity, except they can only bill the end users for ~4 out of every 24 hours = higher standing charges for everybody
- You can't switch large scale generators in or out at a moment's notice, meaning we'll have a higher "base load" or idle generation time on standby where electricity is generated but no-one is buying it = higher per unit charges for everybody
- The country needs a grid upgrade, but there's an 80%+ shortfall on Eirgrid/ESB's ability to fund this compared to the datacentre model = Mr & Mrs Taxpayer steps in to meet the shortfall, or we all start to accept rolling blackout rationing of power

Boggles

Was there a cost analysis of how many jobs would be lost because of the extra drain on the grid?

Was it more or less than 150?

weldoninhio

cnocbui wrote: »

Just stop.


http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/design-build/apples-irish-data-center-faces-new-hearing/96069.fullarticle

"Another appeal calculates that, if all eight halls are built, the complex would increase Ireland’s electricity consumption by more than 8 percent. of Ireland’s electricity. The first hall would use 30MW, but if all halls were built, the site would need 240MW. That works out at around seven percent of Ireland’s total electric power capacity of 3.5GW, but engineer Allan Daly points out that data centers operate continuously so the actual energy usage would be a higher proportion: “It is safe to say that Apple’s data centre will be the largest single user of electricity within the Republic of Ireland, by far.”"

If. IF. IIIIIFFFFFFFFF.

wexie

cnocbui wrote: »

Apple's own submission pretty much agrees with him, so the fact he is objecting doesn't make his technical analysis invalid.

no but it makes his analysis biased, which in turn should make it invalid

cnocbui wrote: »

If this project had pushed Ireland's energy and CO2 usage up so much we copped EU fines in the hundreds of millions, do you think it should have gone ahead?

Unless I'm wrong there isn't such a thing as a fine for energy usage.
There are fines for Co2 production and that doesn't necessarily need to be related to energy production anymore.

So really the problem you have is not with Apple for wanting to build a data center but with ESB for still using coal and peat to run power stations and having an overall hopelessly outdated infrastructure....

vicwatson

Surprised how the minister didn't get a brown envelope to sort this one out, wouldn't have ended like this in Fianna Fails day !

Hurrache

zom wrote: »

You and @Flex seems to be first NIMBYsm defenders here !!

And you seem to have the inability to read. Have you somehow missed all my other posts and just focused on one in particular in order to make a smart comment?

Fann Linn

theyoungchap wrote: »

Bad week for Athenry, all over the papers twice for very wrong reasons.
Last time I had heard of the place before this was at 6 nations match....

Karma???