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Migration Megathread

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    #1232
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Oil and custom, (buying from the west). Many of the major oil companies and wealthy have Muslims to thank. In fact a large portion of the world economy centers on how oil prices fare.

    But that has nothing with Islam but rather induvidual Muslims. It's like thanking Christianity for the achievements of Christians.


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    #1233
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    markodaly wrote: »
    Well, you could communicate and extrapolate the points more clearly rather than engaging in your MO, that is snide glib remarks.

    Ah, he tripped you up a bit earlier. You smelled a rat with his (and I lazily paraphrase here) 'is there, or has there ever been any example of Islamophobia on this thread' as you were cautious about the direction he was leading that conversation. However, it is easy to sense weakness with this (in the same way that his reluctance to speak about specifics is weak), because there is obviously Islamophobia in this thread. I don't need to check. It is a thread, with 1233 posts, on the internet, about Islam. I know that Stephen15 does a thing about giving an analysis of what the word Islamophobia means, but I think we can cut to the chase in this matter.

    Some people will be opposed to immigration because they are racist. It would be strange if someone who was racist were not opposed to immigration (or at least immigration that didn't involve some sort of indentured servitude). So, how does the logic go? Jimmy Savile donated money to charity. Jimmy Savile was a pedophile. Therefore people who donate money to charity are pedophiles. Why do you support pedophiles?

    The reason why people are worked up about Islam is typically because it is a common demographic, and this is an important factor, because all nation states are defined by demographics. It is why they exist. The fact that many liberals (or people who are 'left-wing', for the benefit of Brian?) seem to have a degree of hostility to the nation state is presumably a very significant factor in relation to this debate, but they have a tendency to shy away from such discussions. For what it's worth, I think the tendency to shy away from such debates has actually worked quite well for them, to date. By 'shy away' I mean simply that. You may find them advocating a reduction of the authority of national legislatures, or greater restrictions in terms of direct democracy, but these are just symptoms, not root causes.

    A moderate estimate predicts that by 2050 almost a third of Sweden will be Muslim. I think that that's quite an incredible projection, given that a hundred years ago there would have been 0% of Sweden that was Muslim. Now it is possible that having a very large minority in the country will not have any negative repercussions, but it will be the first time in history that that is the case. Alternatively, it might be possible for a geographically and demographically distinct part of Sweden to secede from Sweden in the future, but again history will point to that predominantly having messy outcomes (see Northern Ireland, Algeria, Yugoslavia, etc.)

    Now, to provide a comprehensive overview, there are certainly far-right people who are mainly interested in establishing scapegoats: someone who looks and sounds a bit different, and finds the existence of a different creed to be very convenient to this end. These people are also not very interested in discussing the greater societal and political aspects, but are more taken with creating an identity for themselves through opposition of a group which does not directly threaten them.

    To get really meta, liberals use the exact same tactic, using far-right extremists to produce fear in relation to a much wider group. This seems to be resulting in an arms race which only serves to hurt discussion, not foster it.


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    #1234
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I never said what was in that quote and you know it.

    If you're that desperate to post a lol comment that you have to infantilise the debate like this then I should perhaps leave it at that.

    You're discussing a topic without doing any research into it. You specifically say as much. I think that would probably be a prerequisite for a debate on the matter. If you don't want to discuss either video that he posted, that's totally legitimate.


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    #1235
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    There is campaigns for them to be taken off social media and there is some who believe that they should be locked up for hate speech. Name one thing Islam has contributed to the west.




    There's a list here

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe


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    #1236
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Odhinn wrote: »
    There's a list here

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe

    Without looking at the page I'm guessing that most of the contributions would be during the Islamic Golden Age, which were a definite benefit to humanity. Contributions since the height of the Ottoman Empire (during and since its attempt to conquer Europe) would be a lot more thin on the ground. Of course in the 20th century, religion got tied to nationalism in a lot of Muslim countries, which as any Irish person can tell you, is not a great idea.


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    #1237
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Odhinn wrote: »
    There's a list here

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world_contributions_to_Medieval_Europe
    Anything within the last 700 years?
    And no, I'm not going to count the "Muslim" petrol in my car.


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    #1238
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    Anything within the last 700 years?
    And no, I'm not going to count the "Muslim" petrol in my car.


    A goalpost shift - quelle suprise. Tell me, do you throw up that line when ancient greece is being labelled the birthplace of western civilisation? Somehow I doubt it.


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    #1239
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A goalpost shift - quelle suprise. Tell me, do you throw up that line when ancient greece is being labelled the birthplace of western civilisation? Somehow I doubt it.

    Because ancient Greece and Rome were highly advanced societies for their time far more advanced than a bunch of savages a few thousand years later. But but they were just a response to the crusades no the crusades were the fight against the barbaric Islamic attempted invasion Europe.

    Why can't you accept Islam is a barbaric ideology?


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    #1240
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Because ancient (...........) ideology?




    You asked about what contribution Islam had made and I linked a list, rather than C&P the whole thing. What is your response to that list?


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    #1241
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Odhinn wrote: »
    A goalpost shift - quelle suprise. Tell me, do you throw up that line when ancient greece is being labelled the birthplace of western civilisation? Somehow I doubt it.
    Hardly a goalpost shift, given the title of the thread.
    If you want to talk ancient civilisations, then yes, there was once a time when the Islamic world was as advanced as the west. Around that time they tried and failed to subjugate Europe.
    If the question is "Name one thing Islam has contributed to the west" then surely the answer is war?

    The Clash of Civilisations. If Greece is the birthplace of Western civilisation, Islam is what tried to snuff it out.


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    #1242
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Odhinn wrote: »
    You asked about what contribution Islam had made and I linked a list, rather than C&P the whole thing. What is your response to that list?

    It's an outdated list as they have contribute little in recent times. Most it seems to done by induvidual muslims rather than Islam which is a barbaric ideology.


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    #1243
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    It's an outdated list as they have contribute little in recent times. Most it seems to done by induvidual muslims rather than Islam which is a barbaric ideology.




    ....you have a strange notion of "islam". It's a set of beliefs broadly shared amongst groups of individuals. Frankly, your dismissal reeks of desperation.


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    #1244
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    recedite wrote: »
    If the question is "Name one thing Islam has contributed to the west" then surely the answer is war?

    Add to that terrorism, FGM, child grooming gangs and refugees from Islamic countries


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    #1245
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Odhinn wrote: »
    ....you have a strange notion of "islam". It's a set of beliefs broadly shared amongst groups of individuals. Frankly, your dismissal reeks of desperation.

    How is it desperation to disagree with an ideology? Many people have no other choice but to follow Islam if not they face execution or disownment from their families. Speaking out against Islam or leaving Islam in many Islamic countries is like speaking out against or leaving communism in the USSR or Fascism in 1930s Germany.


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    #1246
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    How is it desperation to disagree with an ideology? Many people have no other choice but to follow Islam if not they face execution or disownment from their families. Speaking out against Islam or leaving Islam in many Islamic countries is like speaking out against or leaving communism in the USSR or Fascism in 1930s Germany.




    You asked for contributions by "Islam" to western culture. Having been given a list of them, you seem desperate to change topic and indulge in generalisations on other points.


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    #1247
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Add to that terrorism, FGM, child grooming gangs and refugees from Islamic countries

    Irish republican terrorism, neonatal circumcision, institutional abuse, and refugees from Christian countries. This argument is too easily pulled apart.

    If you make statements that can be easily contradicted (like 'Islam has never contributed to western civilization'), then that's exactly what is going to happen, and as Odhinn says, it then gets to changing the goalposts. Islamic philosophy and scientific progress ossified a long time ago, but if your intention was to discuss that, by not giving your statement more precise bounds, you'll find it hard to now do so.


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    #1248
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Irish republican terrorism, neonatal circumcision, institutional abuse, and refugees from Christian countries. This argument is too easily pulled apart.

    It's your argument that is nonsense and totally backwards, I've seen it over and over again now.

    Your argument, breaking it down in the simplest of terms, is that because x happened in the past that we should now accept y happening. If I have two dogs that won't get along socially, should I keep getting more and more dogs hoping it will sort itself it. ( I'm obviously not comparing Muslims to dogs, I'm talking about the culture clash ).

    That is totally illogical. Not only that, you're ignoring the assimilation issue with the difference in religions. Each country has their own problems, you can't equate it at all to the IRA or the catholic church, these are things that happened within our own culture and are unrelated. It's not the same, not even close.


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    #1249
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Ultros wrote: »
    It's your argument that is nonsense and totally backwards, I've seen it over and over again now.

    Picking out individual parts relating to Christianity that is relatively current (it's all within the last 50 years, it's not like I'm going back to the Crusades) doesn't in itself prove anything. That's the point. If you are going to try and prove something a certain way, then it has to hold water, and in isolation, it just doesn't.


    Ultros wrote: »
    Your argument, breaking it down in the simplest of terms, is that because x happened in the past that we should now accept y happening.

    Not at all. I don't think we should ever except Republican terrorism, I think neonatal circumcision is barbaric, I think priests guilty of abuse should be prosecuted. No false dilemma.

    Ultros wrote: »
    If I have two dogs that won't get along socially, should I keep getting more and more dogs hoping it will sort itself it. ( I'm obviously not comparing Muslims to dogs, I'm talking about the culture clash ).

    Sure, but saying 'FGM', and thereby imply culture clash, doesn't really work. You'd have to say how frequent is FGM within Islam.. how frequently is it practiced by Muslim immigrants, etc. As I believe it is illegal in most Western countries, finding information related to this may be quite difficult.

    When you get into specifics, specifics can be used against you. If people can find simple counterexamples they will usually be inclined to dismiss your entire argument.

    I used the increased crime statistics in Germany that was directly tied to immigration as proof of there being a wide scale problem in that country. I remember that I casually mentioned the rape crime in Sweden at the time, a stupid oversight as I should have said 'sexual assault' crime. Because of that oversight my opponent was able to harp on about how rape, specifically, has stayed pretty static in Sweden and ignore pretty much everything else I had said.

    But something like the rising crime rate in Germany is itself pretty bullet proof. It is an anathema to the appeal to emotion, the biased generalization, the slippery slope fallacies. Facts are weapons, and should be treated as such. You don't wield a sword like it is a club, bashing around the point, hoping to bludgeon the argument to death with enough blows. If you can, you sharpen it, and drive it straight into the heart.

    Sometimes information simply isn't available, which is a pity. For instance at the start of the migrant crisis there was a lie among liberal posters saying that most of the migrants coming into Italy were from Syria. This made no logical sense, but just showing photographs of some of the trafficked people was not really sufficient evidence to disprove the statement. It was only subsequently, when documented evidence became available, that the lie could be exposed.


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    #1250
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    So you'd argue the Brexit vote had nothing to do with how immigration changed England? Do you think if there wasn't immigration problems in the UK there would have been a Brexit vote in the first place?

    I'm anonymous here and you should disbelieve me. I'd do the same to prob most posters. I work with a guy from the UK and he told me he came here with his family because his area in England totally changed over the last 10 years due to immigration. Like I said the natural reaction is to not believe me when I tell you this, and that's fine. I'd be the same. There was a Mosque debate in a local council where I live now and I didn't go to it because I don't feel strongly enough about it. It went on like 1 year ago or something, he went though and this guy is harmless.

    From a rational sense if I grew up in an area in Ireland and the culture and demographics changed to the extent it has in places in England I would feel the same as he and his family does. That's not him being a racist, the public didn't vote on allowing that to happen.


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    #1251
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Ultros wrote: »
    So you'd argue the Brexit vote had nothing to do with how immigration changed England? Do you think if there wasn't immigration problems in the UK there would have been a Brexit vote in the first place?

    Okay, that's two questions.

    It's pretty easy to verify that immigration had an impact on the vote. It is easy to get some figures showing that, in the mind of those living in the UK, that it was an issue. Whether it is, in reality, an issue is a bit harder to prove.

    I haven't looked into this in detail, but a question like that gets bogged down in certain details. EU vs non-EU immigration? Was it an issue just because of the campaigning of Leave groups (or, the Liberal's favorite bogey-man, Putin)? Was it a genuine tension, but misplaced in a vote on EU membership?

    In particular, what impact would leaving the EU have in terms of this? As it stands non-EU migrants who are shopping around for their 1st choice country of residence camp in Calais, as it is not legitimate for them to go to the UK, so I'm not really certain how that would change outside of EU membership.


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    #1252
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    RandomName2 wrote: »

    In particular, what impact would leaving the EU have in terms of this?

    As far as I know the EU forced quotas on accepting immigrants, they did at least during the migration crisis. I seen Poland and other countries rejecting them, that's what I'm basing it on.

    Don't know if it'll change much but I see Brexit more as a "We've had enough" backlash kind of thing instead of expecting radical changes. Human element to it certainly plays a part one would think, it's about as much as any random citizen can do politically.


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    #1253
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Ultros wrote: »
    I work with a guy from the UK and he told me he came here with his family because his area in England totally changed over the last 10 years due to immigration.

    The irony appears to have been lost on you.


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    #1254
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The irony appears to have been lost on you.

    The irony being UK and Irish culture is pretty much identical.

    You got me, hard.

    Try again


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    #1255
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Ultros wrote: »
    The irony being UK and Irish culture is pretty much identical.

    You got me, hard.

    Try again

    Oh yeah, I forgot. White migration good, brown migration bad.

    Carry on.


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    #1256
    Ultros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 188 ✭✭Ultros


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oh yeah, I forgot. White migration good, brown migration bad.

    Carry on.

    No, I'm talking about ideology not skin colour, you know that though.

    Why do Sikhs or Indians have a problem with Islam? They have substantial numbers population wise in the UK.


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    #1257
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Ultros wrote: »

    Why do Sikhs or Indians have a problem with Islam? They have substantial numbers population wise in the UK.

    Is this all Sikhs and Indians that have a problem with Islam or just a few nutters?


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    #1258
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Is this all Sikhs and Indians that have a problem with Islam or just a few nutters?

    Islam as an ideology it's plain to see in the quran the hatred towards the kuffar (non-muslims). People need to be able to differentiate between Islam and Muslims. Islam is an ideology and Muslims are people. Condemning Islam as an ideology is like condemning fascism or communism but condemning Muslims who are living under an oppressive Islamic regime is like condemning people living in the USSR or 1930s Germany.


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    #1259
    Midlife
    Registered Users Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Midlife


    What a load of rubbish.

    Name one thing Nigeria has contributed to the West?

    So no migration from Nigeria.

    Name one thing China has contributed to the West?

    So no migration from China.

    Name one thing ireland had contributed to the UK in the 70's and 80's?

    So no immigration from Ireland to the UK.

    Name one thing the third world has contributed to the first?

    So no migration from the third world.


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    #1260
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,816 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Ultros wrote: »
    The irony being UK and Irish culture is pretty much identical.

    You got me, hard.

    Try again

    Irish and UK culture is massively different. Just because we used to be a colony of the UK and were forced to adopt their language to survive you think our cultures are almost identical?

    As a former colony we should feel more kinship with Pakistani, Indian, Burmese, Sri Lankan, Zimbabwean etc. People that we do with English people. But nah, we both speak English and are white so pretty much identical.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #1261
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    SNIP. No more of this rubbish please.


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