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Migration Megathread
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RandomName2 wrote: »It is very common knowledge that a significant percentage of medicine places in most Irish universities are reserved for non-EU students. This has nothing to do with religion, but rather the fact that Irish universities are able to generate considerable revenue through this means. I can't speak in relation to RCSI specifically, but this is pretty standard. If we want more national doctors we would want to reduce this practice, but third level apparently has a dearth of funding, so that's the balancing act being pursued.
Qualification has almost nothing to do with it. Our system is based upon supply and demand. Demand is high, and supply is unnaturally low, as such medicine requires 100% grades in all subjects in the Leaving Certificate (+ HPAT) for Irish students to be able to enter it. If more places opened up, or demand decreased, this would change. Alternatively EU people can often choose graduate entry, but this involves paying very large amounts of money in fees.
Is there something I'm missing here? Are people being needlessly obtuse? I swear people in this thread are writing like they've never encountered the Irish education system. Having said that, I think that this is a different conversation. The retort isn't 'that sounds bigoted'. Christ. The retort should be 'how is the funding shortfall to be made up?'.
Edit: Jesus, Brian?, you're not a bad poster, but you don't half beat a point to death and then stick it in an Indian burial ground hoping it gets reanimated.
These figures are not immediately available to hand, but here's a quote from Fianna Fáil's Michael McGrath that's almost a decade old
"Since 2010, 35% of UCC's undergraduate medicine places have gone to non-EU students and these students are paying massive fees for the privilege of studying here. When it comes to graduate entry medicine places, the figures are even more stark with over 46% of places in UCC going to non-EU students," he said.
"I know of several families in Cork who are making incredible sacrifices to fund their son or daughter studying medicine in the UK because they couldn't get a place here. Many other students who would love to study medicine simply miss out on that opportunity entirely because so many places in UCC and other Universities are going to international students.
"I think we need a real debate as to whether the approach taken by UCC and other Universities is fair. My own personal view is that the Universities have become overly dependent on this source of income and Irish students who want to study medicine here are the ones unfairly paying the price,"
Is there any actual evidence that non - EU students are buying their way into Universities here? If they are not getting in on merit then the drop out rate for non-EU students must be massive, surely that's a data point you could find to support this argument.they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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I don’t need to walk anywhere. If you have proof, share it. If you don’t, then you should retract your earlier point.
I suppose we have to wait for peer-reviewed statistics, at which time the horse has already bolted, or the proof will just be ignored.
Anyway, this is kind of off topic but somewhat relevant. It is not really news that the educational sector makes lots of money from foreign students. All one has to do is look at the proliferation of English schools populating Dublin now.
For example, there is a massive number of Brazilians living in Dublin, most of them on students visa and attending said schools, which gives them semi-legal ability to reside and work. I am not sure policymakers had this in mind when they were creating these rules years ago.
On the 3rd level sector, this has been going on officially for years. There is a cap on what a NUI college can charge an Irish student, but they can charge a non EU student x2 or x3 times more, for the same seat in that lecture room. That is a massive incentive in fairness with both pros and cons attached. More money for the University for facilities and the like but Irish kids get squeezed out especially at the top end, high demand courses. Neo-Liberalism at its finest.
This is in full swing in a number of other countries, like Canada and Australia.
In Oz, it is their 3rd largest export after mining and agriculture. It's a $28 Billion industry, mostly to kids from Asia with China being the big buyer.
https://www.afr.com/leadership/education-exports-are-worth-28-billion-a-year-nearly-20pc-more-than-we-thought-20171005-gyvc8v
Many of these students pay top dollar, up to $40,000 a year, yet can't even speak English.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-25/poor-english-no-jobs-little-support-international-students/10513590
There are over 3/4 of a million international students in Australia. About 4-5% of the total Australian permanent population. And remember these are just the students.
Year after year the numbers have been growing, putting pressure on housing and infrastructure and people have started to notice politically.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/20/michael-daley-gives-unqualified-apology-for-claim-asian-workers-taking-jobsThe New South Wales opposition leader, Michael Daley is under sustained pressure over his comments in a 2018 video in which he said young Sydneysiders were leaving and being replaced by workers from Asia.
Despite repeatedly apologising “if anyone took offence” Daley insisted his comments were not racist or dogwhistling and were about housing affordability in Sydney.
The ironic thing is that Michael Daley is the NSW Labor leader, the centre-left party and what he said is quite true to some respect, yet as soon as you mention migration on the election trail, people lose the heads because they think tomorrow there will be a Nuremberg type rally down the road.
Slightly off topic I know but the tenant of the argument about students from non-EU countries has some merit, but its quite complicated, as are most things.0 -
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I suppose we have to wait for peer-reviewed statistics, at which time the horse has already bolted, or the proof will just be ignored.
I'm not looking for peer reviewed studies. I would like some evidence though. I dunno, some formal documents that showed places being ring fenced for rich non EU citizens would be ideal. Or as I said earlier the comparative drop out rates for EU v non EU citizens.Anyway, this is kind of off topic but somewhat relevant. It is not really news that the educational sector makes lots of money from foreign students. All one has to do is look at the proliferation of English schools populating Dublin now.
For example, there is a massive number of Brazilians living in Dublin, most of them on students visa and attending said schools, which gives them semi-legal ability to reside and work. I am not sure policymakers had this in mind when they were creating these rules years ago.
On the 3rd level sector, this has been going on officially for years. There is a cap on what a NUI college can charge an Irish student, but they can charge a non EU student x2 or x3 times more, for the same seat in that lecture room. That is a massive incentive in fairness with both pros and cons attached. More money for the University for facilities and the like but Irish kids get squeezed out especially at the top end, high demand courses. Neo-Liberalism at its finest.
This is in full swing in a number of other countries, like Canada and Australia.
In Oz, it is their 3rd largest export after mining and agriculture. It's a $28 Billion industry, mostly to kids from Asia with China being the big buyer.
https://www.afr.com/leadership/education-exports-are-worth-28-billion-a-year-nearly-20pc-more-than-we-thought-20171005-gyvc8v
Many of these students pay top dollar, up to $40,000 a year, yet can't even speak English.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-25/poor-english-no-jobs-little-support-international-students/10513590
There are over 3/4 of a million international students in Australia. About 4-5% of the total Australian permanent population. And remember these are just the students.
Year after year the numbers have been growing, putting pressure on housing and infrastructure and people have started to notice politically.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/20/michael-daley-gives-unqualified-apology-for-claim-asian-workers-taking-jobs
The ironic thing is that Michael Daley is the NSW Labor leader, the centre-left party and what he said is quite true to some respect, yet as soon as you mention migration on the election trail, people lose the heads because they think tomorrow there will be a Nuremberg type rally down the road.
Slightly off topic I know but the tenant of the argument about students from non-EU countries has some merit, but its quite complicated, as are most things.
It's very complicated. Which is part of my point. It's far more complicated than walking on to a university campus and listening out for Urdu as some suggested earlier.
This is also off topic a bit. But I have huge admiration for the majority of non EU students I met at university. We were both doing the same post grad, but they were doing it in a foreign tongue. Some of the subjects were incredibly complex for someone who spoke English, I can only imagine the problems for someone who spoke Urdu or Mandarin at home.
Is that a humble brag?they/them/theirs
And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek
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