Migration Megathread

recedite

Meanwhile in Holland "an upstart" democrat wins a major election victory.

We are standing in the rubble of what was once the most beautiful civilisation in the world

Just as another unhinged New Dutchman admits to something.

“Because of the investigation, nothing else can be said.”
Prosecutors said on Thursday that Tanis would be charged with “multiple murders with terrorist aims, as well as attempted murder and a terrorist threat.”

The lefties, with their aptly named Tiny Kox, are very quiet these days.

RandomName2

oscarBravo wrote: »

Oh yeah, I forgot. White migration good, brown migration bad.

Carry on.

Are culture and race for you synonymous, or do you only operate by declaring all your opponents racists?

Did you forget that Ireland and the UK operate the Common Travel Area, and are (at the time of writing) both part of the EU, or was it merely convenient to your argument?

You managed to get your audience clapping at least, but all noises are amplified in an echo chamber.

RandomName2

recedite wrote: »

Meanwhile in Holland "an upstart" democrat wins a major election victory.
Just as another unhinged New Dutchman admits to something.

The lefties, with their aptly named Tiny Kox, are very quiet these days.

His opponents have already discredited him as being a far-right nut-job, they go on about the fact that some of his vote was actually stolen from Geert Wilder's party (about 1/4 - 1/3), and I think you'll find that most people who would be opposed to him, here at least, would not be particularly interested in popular opinion anyway.

Brian? wrote: »

Irish and UK culture is massively different. Just because we used to be a colony of the UK and were forced to adopt their language to survive you think our cultures are almost identical?

As a former colony we should feel more kinship with Pakistani, Indian, Burmese, Sri Lankan, Zimbabwean etc. People that we do with English people. But nah, we both speak English and are white so pretty much identical.

Is this a serious post? I mean, you are taking the piss, right?

Name a Sri Lankan writer, TV program, public figure, type of dance, use of slang, societal norm, tradition, custom, important piece of architecture, art, film, or actor, without use of the internet. Name a shared Sri Lankan Irish historical experience. Talk about the lack of difference between Irish religious traditions and Sri Lankan. We are both islands though, so that is something.

Midlife

recedite wrote: »

Meanwhile in Holland "an upstart" democrat wins a major election victory.

The lefties, with their aptly named Tiny Kox, are very quiet these days.

From the times piece you just quoted.

Left-leaning voters feel not enough is being done and supported the pro-environment Green Left party, which also booked big gains nationwide on Wednesday, including taking nearly a quarter of the vote in Amsterdam.

Now I don't particularly care too much in debating Dutch elections but you have to be more accurate than that and stop picking out just the bits you like.

As someone alluded to, this is basically oppposing halves of the story being picked by opposing sides of the debate and being shouted in echo chambers.

RandomName2

Midlife wrote: »

Now I don't particularly care too much in debating Dutch elections but you have to be more accurate than that and stop picking out just the bits you like.

It's not really picking out the bits you like to point out that the party he is talking about literally came first in the election (having previously held zero seats). The greens probably took most of the socialist party's seats anyway.

Midlife

RandomName2 wrote: »

It's not really picking out the bits you like to point out that the party he is talking about literally came first in the election (having previously held zero seats). The greens probably took most of the socialist party's seats anyway.

So wouldn't it just make more sense to say populist right rises and left with it rather then right rises and lefties very quiet?

or just mention the victory and not try to simultaneously have an incorrect jab at the left?

Midlife

In fairness though, if you go somewhere like China, you'll see that the line dividing irish and UK culture fades away to nothing. Experiences of colonisation aside, we are more like the people in the UK than people anywhere else.

I think that a baramoter for this is that irish people settling in the UK or vice versa would experience the lowest culture shock of anywhere in the world really.

RandomName2

Midlife wrote: »

So wouldn't it just make more sense to say populist right rises and left with it rather then right rises and lefties very quiet?

or just mention the victory and not try to simultaneously have an incorrect jab at the left?

I think he meant lefties outside of the Netherlands? It's actually non-typical. There's usually some talk about 'how to stop Poland, Italy, Czech Republic, Hungary (and to a lesser extent Austria and Denmark) from destroying civilization'. Rutte is still in office (for the moment) so that might change in the future.

recedite

Midlife wrote: »

So wouldn't it just make more sense to say populist right rises and left with it rather then right rises and lefties very quiet?

or just mention the victory and not try to simultaneously have an incorrect jab at the left?

But I wouldn't have been able to get my Tiny Kox reference in then, would I?
Eh..not my Tiny Kox, you know what I mean.

tretorn

Brian? wrote: »

Irish and UK culture is massively different. Just because we used to be a colony of the UK and were forced to adopt their language to survive you think our cultures are almost identical?

As a former colony we should feel more kinship with Pakistani, Indian, Burmese, Sri Lankan, Zimbabwean etc. People that we do with English people. But nah, we both speak English and are white so pretty much identical.

Absolute nonsense, I have nothing in common with people from Pakistan or India or Sri Lanka or Burma. I share a common first language with the Brits and our two societies have always intermingled re working and intermarrying and we also share the same system of Government and the same legal system.

Brian?

tretorn wrote: »

Absolute nonsense, I have nothing in common with people from Pakistan or India or Sri Lanka or Burma. I share a common first language with the Brits and our two societies have always intermingled re working and intermarrying and we also share the same system of Government and the same legal system.

Yeah. All of this was forced on us by colonisation.

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

Yeah. All of this was forced on us by colonisation.

Brian? just stop. There are some ex-British Empire possessions which we share a large degree of cultural similarity, such as Australia, New Zealand, America. Most of them we do not. The fact that we are literally next door neighbors with Wales, Scotland, and England would be a major reason for us to share cultural similarity, as well as the fact that we were colonized by them.

The fact that Irish people went to the US and Australia was far more important than being part of the British Empire in terms of cultural similarity. We have no cultural similarity with what was British India. If Irish people had settled there in significant numbers, as they did the US and Australia, there might be (though there was a pretty large indigenous population which would probably just assimilated such settlers in the long run).

I don't know what point you're even trying to establish any more. I warrant it's a pretty silly one.

Midlife

recedite wrote: »

But I wouldn't have been able to get my Tiny Kox reference in then, would I?
Eh..not my Tiny Kox, you know what I mean.

A fair point

Brian?

RandomName2 wrote: »

Brian? just stop. There are some ex-British Empire possessions which we share a large degree of cultural similarity, such as Australia, New Zealand, America. Most of them we do not. The fact that we are literally next door neighbors with Wales, Scotland, and England would be a major reason for us to share cultural similarity, as well as the fact that we were colonized by them.

The fact that Irish people went to the US and Australia was far more important than being part of the British Empire in terms of cultural similarity. We have no cultural similarity with what was British India. If Irish people had settled there in significant numbers, as they did the US and Australia, there might be (though there was a pretty large indigenous population which would probably just assimilated such settlers in the long run).

I don't know what point you're even trying to establish any more. I warrant it's a pretty silly one.

You're determined to miss my point. Fair enough. British and Irish culture are not almost identical. They are vastly different, all similarites are a result of colonisation, not synergy between neighbours.End of point.

Midlife

Brian? wrote: »

You're determined to miss my point. Fair enough. British and Irish culture are not almost identical. They are vastly different, all similarites are a result of colonisation, not synergy between neighbours.End of point.

I disagree.

Ireland existed alongside Britian before colonisation. We have a shared celtic history that goes back thousands of years. There are shared languages remembered only in parts of Ireland and Wales/Cornwall. Scotland and us share a gaelic language. Christianity has impacted hugely on both cultures for a long time.

I understand what you're trying to say but I think you're basing too much on colonisation.

The implication being that if colonisation hadn't happened we'd have as much in common with Britian as say, China or Indonesia is incorrect I think.

I think we are primed to see the differences. We are as different to Britian as Korea is to Japan.

Brian?

Midlife wrote: »

I disagree.

Ireland existed alongside Britian before colonisation. We have a shared celtic history that goes back thousands of years. There are shared languages remembered only in parts of Ireland and Wales/Cornwall. Scotland and us share a gaelic language. Christianity has impacted hugely on both cultures for a long time.

I understand what you're trying to say but I think you're basing too much on colonisation.

The implication being that if colonisation hadn't happened we'd have as much in common with Britian as say, China or Indonesia is incorrect I think.

I think we are primed to see the differences. We are as different to Britian as Korea is to Japan.

I never said that. My point again: Irish and British cultures are not almost identical. Which was the claim made.

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

I never said that. My point again: Irish and British cultures are not almost identical. Which was the claim made.

Insofar that Irish culture is like any other culture it is clearly, indisputably most like British culture. Other things are subjective, the cause is complicated, but irrelevant. The claim that Irish culture is more closely related to Zimbabwean culture is bogus.

Again, I can't quite see the train of logic. I assume that it has something to do with immigration, but I just can't get it.

4068ac1elhodqr

Brian? wrote: »

. British and Irish culture are not almost identical. They are vastly different, all similarites are a result of colonisation.

This right here is a very, very daft statement.
Name one other country that is more similar to Ire, than the uk?

Then to try to excuse it by referring only to colonisation, you could equally mention neighbourly trade and economic ties going right back to the Celts or even the Atlantic bronze age.

RandomName2

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

This right here is a very, very daft statement.
Name one other country that is more similar to Ire, than the uk?

Then to try to excuse it by referring only to colonisation, you could equally mention neighbourly trade and economic ties going right back to the Celts or even the Atlantic bronze age.

I'm thinking that the argument was that.. the only thing we have in common with the UK is race and language, so being okay with immigrants from the UK and potentially not with let's say immigrants from Somalia makes you racist. It's pretty convoluted and lacking substance. oscarbravo's 'argument' was perhaps less substantial, but at least had the merit of being more to the point in calling people racists.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

Irish and UK culture is massively different. Just because we used to be a colony of the UK and were forced to adopt their language to survive you think our cultures are almost identical?

As a former colony we should feel more kinship with Pakistani, Indian, Burmese, Sri Lankan, Zimbabwean etc. People that we do with English people. But nah, we both speak English and are white so pretty much identical.

Im quoting myself here.

Irish and British culture is massively different.

I said we should feel more kinship with other foreign colonies of the British. I did not say we had more in common with them. I think this is a pretty obvious rebuttal to someone saying British and Irish culture was “almost identical “. It’s not.

Stephen15

Brian? wrote: »

Im quoting myself here.

Irish and British culture is massively different.

I said we should feel more kinship with other foreign colonies of the British. I did not say we had more in common with them. I think this is a pretty obvious rebuttal to someone saying British and Irish culture was “almost identical “. It’s not.

No because the majority of former British colonies are now regarded as third world shítholes whom Ireland has nothing in common with. Saying we should have a kinship with the likes of Zimbabwe, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kenya etc. is like saying we should have a kinship with dictatorships, slavery, corruption, terrorism, radical Islam, FGM, torture and injustice. We don't have a whole lot in common with those countries and rightly so.

Apart from having a shared language we have as much in common with Britain as other white Western/European first world countries such as France, Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Sweden, USA, Australia, Denmark etc.

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

Im quoting myself here.

Okay, let me refresh your memory.

Ultros wrote: »

start of discussion

Ultros uses a quote from someone from the UK who is living in Ireland in relation to immigration. It isn't a quote I am particularly interested in because it's anecdotal.

oscarbravo points out that that makes the guy from the UK an immigrant in Ireland (fairly sketchy argument, but we'll let that pass)

Ultros says that there's virtually no difference between UK and Irish culture

oscarbravo says that Ultros is therefore a racist. Note. This is a post you thanked.

Ultros says that he was talking about ideology, not skin tone

You respond to Ultros saying that there is a huge ideological/cultural difference between Britain and Ireland. So you defend oscarbravo's assertion (which you clearly agree with) that Ultros is a racist, because the only thing we have in common with Britain is skin color and language.

If you can't smell the obvious whiff of garbage, you've clearly been living in the landfill too long.

Brian?

RandomName2 wrote: »

Okay, let me refresh your memory.

Ultros uses a quote from someone from the UK who is living in Ireland in relation to immigration. It isn't a quote I am particularly interested in because it's anecdotal.

oscarbravo points out that that makes the guy from the UK an immigrant in Ireland (fairly sketchy argument, but we'll let that pass)

Ultros says that there's virtually no difference between UK and Irish culture

oscarbravo says that Ultros is therefore a racist. Note. This is a post you thanked.

Ultros says that he was talking about ideology, not skin tone

You respond to Ultros saying that there is a huge ideological/cultural difference between Britain and Ireland. So you defend oscarbravo's assertion (which you clearly agree with) that Ultros is a racist, because the only thing we have in common with Britain is skin color and language.

If you can't smell the obvious whiff of garbage, you've clearly been living in landfill too long.

That’s some serious mental gymnastics to get to the point where I’m calling Ultros racist.

I don’t know if Ultros is actually racist, but there is definitely an irony to being anti immigration and defending the right of an English man to move to Ireland.

Again, British and Irish culture is not “virtually identical”, do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Midlife

Brian? wrote: »

but there is definitely an irony to being anti immigration and defending the right of an English man to move to Ireland.

This is a fair point.

To be honest guys I feel you've gotten to the point to where you're just arguing about symantics.

RandomName2

Brian? wrote: »

That’s some serious mental gymnastics to get to the point where I’m calling Ultros racist.

You're not, but you're still defending the position that is trying to do just that.

Brian? wrote: »

I don’t know if Ultros is actually racist, but there is definitely an irony to being anti immigration and defending the right of an English man to move to Ireland.

Would you have the same view if the person came from Northern Ireland? If not, why not? Is it because our culture and that of Northern Ireland is so different, in your opinion? Again, if someone moved to Dublin from somewhere in the Gaelteacht would you have the same view? Would it be ironic if Ultros defended the right of someone to move from Belfast to Cork? If not, why not?

Brian? wrote: »

Again, British and Irish culture is not “virtually identical”, do you agree or disagree with that statement?

The statement is meaningless without context. How do you know if the difference is significant if you don't know what the measure is? If you are making a comparison between French and Chinese, then the difference between American English and British English becomes negligible (or maybe you'd disagree with this statement, but I'm assuming some common sense).

Of course Irish and English have distinct cultures. If we weren't distinct there'd no need for us to be a separate country. There are distinct Irish cultural aspects, chief of which is/was Catholicism. Yet, there is of course a large amount of overlap, which is one of the reasons we have such integration between our two peoples. Many English people live here, many Irish people live there.

There are cultural distinctions between different parts of Ireland (in the republic) as well, but not particularly significant.

Your argument that we should find more in common with someone from Singapore than Scotland is completely specious. That isn't a semantic.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

Irish and British culture is massively different.

Different yes, but massively different, not at all.

To be honest about it, we are more like the Brits than any other nation or people's. This is why Brexit is so bad for Ireland in the long run.

I said we should feel more kinship with other foreign colonies of the British. I did not say we had more in common with them. I think this is a pretty obvious rebuttal to someone saying British and Irish culture was “almost identical “. It’s not.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. The average Irish guy from Tuam has much more in common with the average Brit from Stoke-on-Trent than an average Kenyan or Sri Lankan.

Just because these other countries suffer from postcolonialism doesn't mask this fact.

markodaly

Brian? wrote: »

Yeah. All of this was forced on us by colonisation.

Was St. Patrick a colonist too by extension?
How far are we to go here? The Tudors, the Normans, the Vikings...
The Celts? Because there were people here before the Celts came to Ireland..

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/skeletal-remains-discovered-behind-pub-challenge-beliefs-on-irish-origins

“The DNA evidence based on those bones completely upends the traditional view,” said Barry Cunliffe, an emeritus professor of archaeology at Oxford.
DNA analysis indicates that the remains found behind the pub belonged to ancestors of the modern Irish and predate the Celts and their purported arrival by a thousand years or more, reports The Star.

In other words, the genetic roots of today’s Irish people, existed in Ireland long before the Celts arrival.

According to research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science journal, the “most striking feature” of the bones is how much their DNA resembles that of contemporary Irish, Welsh and Scots.

Older bones discovered in Ireland, however, are closer to those of Mediterranean people than to the modern Irish.

So when exactly did colonisation happen in Ireland?

By the way, I am not dismissing it happened, as I have my own opinion on when it occurred, I just want to get a benchmark for the debate set.

Brian? wrote: »

all similarites are a result of colonisation, not synergy between neighbours.End of point.

Hmmm, are you really serious?

Stephen15

Brian? wrote: »

That’s some serious mental gymnastics to get to the point where I’m calling Ultros racist.

I don’t know if Ultros is actually racist, but there is definitely an irony to being anti immigration and defending the right of an English man to move to Ireland.

Again, British and Irish culture is not “virtually identical”, do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Irish people can culturally assimilate into British society and vice versa much easier than someone from Africa or Asia.

James Brown

Stephen15 wrote: »

But that has nothing with Islam but rather induvidual Muslims. It's like thanking Christianity for the achievements of Christians.

What has Christianity contributed to the East, or Judaism for that matter? Kind of a silly line to follow if you ask me.

Stephen15 wrote: »

It's an outdated list as they have contribute little in recent times. Most it seems to done by induvidual muslims rather than Islam which is a barbaric ideology.

What do you seriously think you'll get as a response? We can't count things contributed by 'individuals'. I assume you don't hold all Muslims accountable for the terror attacks of individuals so?
Barbaric ideology? This is your view. You're going from discussing immigration to simply disliking the religion, despite recognised contributions to the west, but only by individuals. Do you think Muslims are all the same working as one unit? Are you a believer in the Jewish conspiracy too, because that's what you seem to be suggesting here?

Ultros

The proof is in the polls. Looking at France specifically, how can anyone deny with a straight face that there isn't a culture clash there?

78% say Islam tries to impose it's way of life on others. Argue that.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170704/sixty-five-percent-of-french-say-there-are-too-many-foreigners-in-france

"Most French people say there are too many foreigners in France, immigrants do not make an effort to assimilate and Islam is incompatible with the French values...

...When it came to the other ever divisive issue of the role of Islam, 60 percent of the people questioned for the survey titled "French Fractures 2017", believe the religion of Islam is incompatible with the values of the French Republic...

In a separate question some 78 percent of French people are of the view that Islam "seeks to impose its way of life on others".

Regarding radical Islam, 46% of the French polled said that "even if it is not its main message, Islam still contains within it the seeds of violence and intolerance".