Under-age training misconduct

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:13PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Absolutely not.

I just don't like seeing the entire association being dragged through the mud because of 1 man swearing, 1 man talking to 2 underage players without another adult present and 1 clubs poor way of dealing with it.

Remember this is "The GAA story every parent will want to read"

A culture of the "real world" being at odds with the rules...it could be any gaa club... you are definitely trivilialising this and, worryingly, you don't seem to have the self awareness to see it

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:17PM

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

After that meeting was set up with the rest of the community, with the main purpose of discrediting and ridiculing a family with genuine complaints, put through the right channels, and which were ignored by the club until they were forced to address them, I really couldn't give a cr@p about the 2 lads being named in a national paper.

I don't know how much involvement they had in this meeting, but its the actions of the club throughout all this which has shamed them

That's exactly the side of the story Kimmage wants you to believe.

Families with genuine complaints generally approach the person with whom they have the complaint, not Croke Park and the national media.

And what sort of parent puts their 10 year old into an under 14 competitive hurling match??

I think your sentiments regarding the 2 lads being named are very unfair particularly as you admit that "I don't know how much involvement they had in this meeting"

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:22PM

Choochtown wrote: »

That's exactly the side of the story Kimmage wants you to believe.

Families with genuine complaints generally approach the person with whom they have the complaint, not Croke Park and the national media.

And what sort of parent puts their 10 year old into an under 14 competitive hurling match??

I think your sentiments regarding the 2 lads being named are very unfair particularly as you admit that "I don't know how much involvement they had in this meeting"

These are child welfare matters. I wouldn't have blamed them going to the gardai regarding the dressing room incident. The parents reaction was very understandable given that the club culture accommodated blatant disregard for child welfare

AndrewJRenko · 07-05-2018 10:24PM

ebbsy wrote: »

+1

The fathers in question should have grown a set and dealt with the people in question themselves.

Why do you assume they didn't deal with the people in question themselves?

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:25PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

A culture of the "real world" being at odds with the rules...it could be any gaa club... you are definitely trivilialising this and, worryingly, you don't seem to have the self awareness to see it

So do you think this incident is typical of GAA clubs across the country?

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:26PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

These are child welfare matters. I wouldn't have blamed them going to the gardai regarding the dressing room incident. The parents reaction was very understandable given that the club culture accommodated blatant disregard for child welfare

And what would the complaint to the Gardai be?

I actually agree with you. If there was a genuine complaint then go to the Gardai.

Why go to Paul Kimmage?

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:31PM

Choochtown wrote: »

So do you think this incident is typical of GAA clubs across the country?

I hope not but the club officials suggest otherwise. If the foul language issue is prevalent in other clubs then who knows what else is

Widdensushi · 07-05-2018 10:32PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

These are child welfare matters. I wouldn't have blamed them going to the gardai regarding the dressing room incident. The parents reaction was very understandable given that the club culture accommodated blatant disregard for child welfare

How did they know that the club culture accommodated it if they bypassed the club, the disregard for the children's welfare could also be seen to be by the parents, if they didn't like the way it was going it would have been alot easier on the children to take them out of the club, rather than putting them through this drama.

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:33PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

I hope not but the club officials suggest otherwise. If the foul language issue is prevalent in other clubs then who knows what else is

The suggestion from the Sunday Independent is that it is typical behaviour.

In my experience that is very far from the truth.

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:35PM

Widdensushi wrote: »

How did they know that the club culture accommodated it if they bypassed the club, the disregard for the children's welfare could also be seen to be by the parents, if they didn't like the way it was going it would have been alot easier on the children to take them out of the club, rather than putting them through this drama.

Putting your 10 year old child in with the Under 14s to prove a point is another way of disregarding your child's welfare.

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:35PM

Choochtown wrote: »

And what would the complaint to the Gardai be?

I actually agree with you. If there was a genuine complaint then go to the Gardai.

Why go to Paul Kimmage?

You need to ask the parents that question. I would guess that they were reacting to a campaign against them in their local community and maybe they are a bit smarter than the village idiots

Bonniedog · 07-05-2018 10:37PM

Kimmage hates "the gah". Wrote an article last year which he began with reference to seeing exciting matches and then let the mask slip with sh"t about cheating and violence on the pitch.

There are undoubtedly issues in that club but this is like a fkn row over bingo calling or who was next on the pool table becoming the subject of a rival to "All the Presidents Men"!

Okay, Paul, your sport is something people do to get to work and is totally corrupt. You were part of it yourself.

You will have to do better to take down the most popular sports in the country. Get inline behind Gerry Kiernan and all the other bitter fkers.

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:37PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

You need to ask the parents that question. I would guess that they were reacting to a campaign against them in their local community and maybe they are a bit smarter than the village idiots

What campaign? What "village idiots"?

More innuendo.

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:38PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Putting your 10 year old child in with the Under 14s to prove a point is another way of disregarding your child's welfare.

Depends on the physique of the kids but let's not get in the way of your deflection from institutional abandonment of child welfare guidelines

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:39PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

Depends on the physique of the kids but let's not get in the way of your deflection from institutional abandonment of child welfare guidelines

Institutional?

Are you suggesting that there is widespread child welfare issues within the GAA?

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:41PM

Choochtown wrote: »

What campaign? What "village idiots"?

More innuendo.

You need to read the story. Its all explained there.

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:43PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Institutional?

Are you suggesting that there is widespread child welfare issues within the GAA?

The club is an institution.

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:47PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

The club is an institution.

Less of the insults please.

institutional
(ɪnstɪtjuːʃənəl , US -tuː- )
1. adjective [ADJECTIVE noun]
Institutional means relating to a large organization, for example a university, bank, or church.

eg. the GAA

glic71rods46t0 · 07-05-2018 10:47PM

Widdensushi wrote: »

How did they know that the club culture accommodated it if they bypassed the club, the disregard for the children's welfare could also be seen to be by the parents, if they didn't like the way it was going it would have been alot easier on the children to take them out of the club, rather than putting them through this drama.

Somehow it's the parents fault???

Choochtown · 07-05-2018 10:51PM

9vp63o4jhfa1qr wrote: »

You need to read the story. Its all explained there.

No it's insinuated there.

Big difference.

Don't fall for Kimmage's emotive language.

Deal with the facts. "Complainant A" met a neighbour at the hotel. (or so they claimed) and this becomes in your words ... "a campaign against them"

Mycroft H · 07-05-2018 11:00PM

Bonniedog wrote: »

Kimmage hates "the gah". Wrote an article last year which he began with reference to seeing exciting matches and then let the mask slip with sh"t about cheating and violence on the pitch.

There are undoubtedly issues in that club but this is like a fkn row over bingo calling or who was next on the pool table becoming the subject of a rival to "All the Presidents Men"!

Okay, Paul, your sport is something people do to get to work and is totally corrupt. You were part of it yourself.

You will have to do better to take down the most popular sports in the country. Get inline behind Gerry Kiernan and all the other bitter fkers.

Kimmage was different. Got out when he seen the real side of corruption and doping. Fought tooth and nail to expose it and it damn near ruined him. Don't think it's anything to do with the gaa but more about the principal of malpractice.

Tell me how · 07-05-2018 11:02PM

Mycroft H wrote:

Kimmage was different. Got out when he seen the real side of corruption and doping. Fought tooth and nail to expose it and it damn near ruined him. Don't think it's anything to do with the gaa but more about the principal of malpractice.

Agreed. Say what you want about Kimmage, but he's consistent.
Across all sports.

If he hadn't been a sports person, people would say "What do you know. You're just a hack."

WHL · 07-05-2018 11:40PM

I’m involved in soccer while my young lad plays soccer and GAA. Why is it being insinuated that this is anti-GAA. If everything reported is true, the club are in the wrong. The GAA have investigated and suspended the club from juvenile activity until they sort it out. Is this not positive. I don’t know of any soccer, rugby or any other club suspended in a similar manner by their parent association. It’s not about whether the U10 player or the U12 coach and club secretary are right. It’s about an U10 player having a grievance and whether the club were willing to investigate properly.
I think that the GAA were slow to react but they have done the right thing - and I have no evidence that other sporting organisations would do the right thing in similar circumstances. Fair dues to the GAA

Trasna1 · 07-05-2018 11:56PM

Choochtown wrote: »

Putting your 10 year old child in with the Under 14s to prove a point is another way of disregarding your child's welfare.

Whataboutery at it's finest.

The two issues here are interlinked. You have a sweary U12 coach where some of the lads didn't want to play for his team. The club executive should have dealt with this coach and told him to tone down his behaviour. It doesn't matter how much of a stalwart, servant or how good of a man he otherwise is.

The failure to deal with the first problem means the second problem presents itself: children trying to tog out for the next level up. It's not made clear why the secretary was so upset at two young lads doing this although I can think of reasons - like perhaps encouraging other players to leave U12, but he handled it terribly. If the club we're unhappy with 11 year olds playing U14, they shouldn't have been let tog out. They should have been brought to their parents and the situation explained to them. And so what if noses were put out of joint.

At the end of the day, what we are talking about is a sports club, nothing more - that perspective should not be lost. That secretary should be thanking his lucky stars that those lads didn't concoct a much more sinister story.

Of course the follow up after the complaints was handled shambolically. Total head in the sand stuff until they had to deal with it. Finally forced to deal with it, they then circled the wagons.

evolving_doors · 08-05-2018 12:19AM

Stoner wrote: »

That's the big if.

It does not read well if true, the selective meetings etc are things we hear about at many clubs. They are never positive.

Also most importantly imo, we've only heard one side of the story.

I'd rather kimmage didn't write this one, I do think he has an issue with the GAA, I also think he wouldn't know he had an issue if he had one as he's so sure of his unbiased standing.

I've seen parents, even within my own family take a different twist on decisions involving their kids and selection.

I'm not sure that naming the selector was necessary, it seems like a vendetta.

15/16 signitures is a lot for one team/ club. I assume that's true and that's a very important verified detail.

Not getting a guy you call 4 times is not great, send an email, possibly that option was not available, but the build up to this in the paper is ridiculous imo.

It looks like this should have been handled better by the club, but kimmage is not the man to deliver a message about the GAA, it would have more credibility if someone else did it.

Certainly you wouldn't like your child addressed by a adult without another adult present, that is a big no no. How could you get that worked up with two 10 year olds anyway?

Well if anything Kimmage has flipped the tables then. Those parents were being set up publicly without a right of reply.

The boys/parents were vilified publicly at the meeting, no? Of course never named at the gathering, but every Joe in the town knew who it was.
That seemed like a vendetta to me anyway.

WHL · 08-05-2018 12:27AM

It is indisputable that the parents here thought that their child was treated wrongly. It was investigated by the GAA and they took the decision to suspend a major club. That must be laudable. I don’t know of any soccer or rugby club that treated kids equally unfairly and were investigated in a similar manner. However from my soccer knowledge I would be surprised if there were not parents out there who were equally upset by a coach’es behaviour. Were these incidences investigated in a similar manner and, if culpable, were sports clubs from other organisations also suspended. I don’t know the answer but I’d like to!

evolving_doors · 08-05-2018 12:28AM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Whataboutery at it's finest.

The two issues here are interlinked. You have a sweary U12 coach where some of the lads didn't want to play for his team. The club executive should have dealt with this coach and told him to tone down his behaviour. It doesn't matter how much of a stalwart, servant or how good of a man he otherwise is.

The failure to deal with the first problem means the second problem presents itself: children trying to together out for the next level up. It's not made clear why the secretary was so upset at two young lads doing this although I can think of reasons - like perhaps encouraging other players to leave U12, but he handled it terribly. If the club we're unhappy with 11 year olds playing U14, they shouldn't have been let tog out. They should have been brought to their parents and the situation explained to them. And so what if noses were put out of joint.

At the end of the day, what we are talking about is a sports club, nothing more - that perspective should not be lost. That secretary should be thanking his lucky stars that those lads didn't concoct a much more sinister story.

Of course the follow up after the complaints was handled shambolically. Total head in the sand stuff until they had to deal with it. Finally forced to deal with it, they then circled the wagons.

I agree 100% with everything above except the underlined part.
The lines between a mere sports club and community aren't so distinct. For many folk the sports club IS the community.

e.g.

"We made a mistake and brought our son," ‘Complainant B' says. "We walked into the hotel and there were people from the club everywhere — the restaurant, the foyer, the corridors, everywhere . . . I met one of my neighbours and asked, ‘What are you doing here?' She says: ‘I can't tell you that.'

Similarly they were allowed (if not encouraged) to be denigrated publicly by a large cohort from that community.

ad language is part of the game."

"If these guys are punished you'll get nobody to do anything next year. The club will fall apart!"

Then the spotlight turned to the complainants.

"I think ye should tell us who's making the complaint?"

"Is it true they bypassed the club and went straight to Croke Park?"

"It sounds like an agenda."

"Are they here?"

(Laughs)

"What was their evidence like?"

"Were they well prepared?"

"It's hard to know," the secretary replied.

"That's open to interpretation," the treasurer said.

The audience laughed.

Did anyone offer another view at the meeting?

joebloggs32 · 08-05-2018 01:07AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'm condoningthe language... actually the GAA do too.

A very minor incident!!!

As a teacher if I swore at kids and detained them in a room on my own to tear strips out of them like that. I would be totally dragged over the coals.
Then to circle the bandwagons and isolate 2 families from a community! I thought those days were over. Those other parents who got caught up in it should have smelled a rat when they were summoned to a meeting.

It's funny because it's true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guT76kAPYs0

As a teacher I know that there is always two sides to every story.
The article claims he closed the dressing room door, the club represntitive refutes this.
Can anyone definitely confirm it did or didn't happen?
Secondly he did not speak to one child alone, there were two of them. He may not have tore strips off them but what he was telling them according to the club representative was that they couldn't come again to u14 die to their age, something I would agree with as a general rule. The kids may have heard the words your not getting a jersey again and failed to process what may have followed. I often find this happening with kids as a teacher.
On the other hand maybe he did tear strips off them. I wasn't there along with everyone else here discussing this, but most people here have passed judgement on this incident based on what kimmage has written, a bit like the recent rape case in the north where very polarised views were formed with limited information.

I would say the club could have reacted to subsequent events better, but remember the club officials are all volunteering and the croke park officials are lprofessional civil servants who seem to think that they can expect the same high standards in running a voluntary club that they themselves apply to their professional life.

Gravelly · 08-05-2018 01:19AM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

the club officials are all volunteering

I see this "he was only a volunteer" excuse being raised time and again on this thread, and have heard it raised as an excuse for unprofessional/stupid/biased behaviour in clubs on numerous occasions. I've volunteered for all of my adult life in sports coaching, and would never use this as an excuse. If someone expects to be paid for basic human decency or adherence to the rules THEN THEY SHOULDN'T BE COACHING KIDS. It frightens me that this needs to be pointed out. Every person coaching kids nowadays has gone through at least a basic coaching course and a child protection course - no excuses, no bullshït, if you can't or don't want to do the right thing, don't coach kids.

joebloggs32 · 08-05-2018 01:20AM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Whataboutery at it's finest.

The two issues here are interlinked. You have a sweary U12 coach where some of the lads didn't want to play for his team. The club executive should have dealt with this coach and told him to tone down his behaviour. It doesn't matter how much of a stalwart, servant or how good of a man he otherwise is.

The failure to deal with the first problem means the second problem presents itself: children trying to together out for the next level up. It's not made clear why the secretary was so upset at two young lads doing this although I can think of reasons - like perhaps encouraging other players to leave U12, but he handled it terribly. If the club we're unhappy with 11 year olds playing U14, they shouldn't have been let tog out. They should have been brought to their parents and the situation explained to them. And so what if noses were put out of joint.

At the end of the day, what we are talking about is a sports club, nothing more - that perspective should not be lost. That secretary should be thanking his lucky stars that those lads didn't concoct a much more sinister story.

Of course the follow up after the complaints was handled shambolically. Total head in the sand stuff until they had to deal with it. Finally forced to deal with it, they then circled the wagons.

The two lads in question may have already rigged out when the club secretary became aware they were there. The article does say one of the parents dropped them to the game. They may have got there before the secretary. People are busy. I have done the job before and teams can arrive very early to warm up, so I may not always get there before then.
Maybe when he started to write out the team sheet then he became aware of their presence and didn't want to embarrass them by asking them tog back in on the spot in front of the others. That really would create a sh1tstorm. Having a quiet word would be better in that case, but ideally leaving it after to speak with the parents would have been best, but we all do make mistakes.

Under-age training misconduct

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