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Under-age training misconduct

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,601 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Good point although the 16 signatures could be from anyone. Judging by further information in the article it would seem that the 16 people who signed the letter would not represent a majority of parents of the U12 panel.

    However I do agree that it was not handled at all well by the club.

    The fact remains that Kimmage has named and vilified someone in a national newspaper for nothing more than using the f word. Someone who has for years willingly given his free time to coach young people. I think that's out of order. Do you?

    Whilst I believe he can feel sore if that's all that happened, has Kimmage said anything that's untrue? Because if he did, he'd be open to defamation/libel.

    For the record, anyone swearing at a child should not be involved in coaching them regardless of them being willing to give up their free time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ beechwood55


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Someone who has for years willingly given his free time to coach young people. I think that's out of order. Do you?

    No.
    What is bang out of order is that man taking two young boys into a dressing room and closing the door. He is damn lucky that no allegations were made against him, apart from what he is alleged to have said to them about not wearing the club jersey again. What made him disregard everything he must have heard about child safeguarding?? Did he feel he was invincible because of his years of service to the club?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭ theoneeyedman


    Really sensationist stuff from The Sindo, mountain out of a molehill.
    Nobody comes out of this well, least of all the kids who from my reading of it are being used as pawns in some sort of a power play by parents. The club deserves to be lambasted how they handled the row, ie for closing ranks and hoping the row would go away, rather than dealing with the issues regarding the coach and the club official, but to think this is worth 2 full pages in a what's supposedly the prime Sunday newspaper is a little sad.
    The issue of ' child protection' is very serious obviously, but to see it used as a tool to ruin reputations and in power battles like this, by adults and papers/journalists like this is a huge insult to every person whose was on the end of real abuse over the years, and whose abuse has led to these procedures being put in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    I'm condoningthe language... actually the GAA do too.

    A very minor incident!!!

    As a teacher if I swore at kids and detained them in a room on my own to tear strips out of them like that. I would be totally dragged over the coals.
    Then to circle the bandwagons and isolate 2 families from a community! I thought those days were over. Those other parents who got caught up in it should have smelled a rat when they were summoned to a meeting.

    It's funny because it's true.



    Have you actually read the article? Nobody swore at kids and detained them in a room. Even Kimmage isn't claiming that.

    Mind you an article that begins with a quote from "Animal Farm", proceeds to use 20+ lines to describe the "bad man" cursing, makes light of the "good man" doing the same and then finishes with Kimmage miraculously being able to see someone pulling a letter from a file (from down a phone line!!) could maybe persuade people to assume things that just aren't true.

    Kimmage is a clever man and earns a living from this sort of stuff but read the article again and it's very high on emotion and metaphor and very low on fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,522 ✭✭✭ Happyilylost


    Choochtown wrote:
    The fact remains that Kimmage has named and vilified someone in a national newspaper for nothing more than using the f word. Someone who has for years willingly given his free time to coach young people. I think that's out of order. Do you?


    I agree. I guess. I think the story carries as much weight if he had put in coach A and club official B. Maybe he has a reason why he named them. For me their actions are not the most pressing issues in the article. The reaction of club just doesn't add up. They seem to have made multiple poor decisions. And kept digging a much bigger hole for themselves. Their next AGM would be a good event to attend :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    No.
    What is bang out of order is that man taking two young boys into a dressing room and closing the door. He is damn lucky that no allegations were made against him, apart from what he is alleged to have said to them about not wearing the club jersey again. What made him disregard everything he must have heard about child safeguarding?? Did he feel he was invincible because of his years of service to the club?


    No proof of this whatsoever. If there was I totally agree with you.

    The parent was told something (Kimmage doesn't say what but he knows what the reader will think) by "a neighbour's boy"


  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ beechwood55


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Have you actually read the article? Nobody swore at kids and detained them in a room. Even Kimmage isn't claiming that.

    I think he is.

    our son and another player were asked to stay back in the dressing room by John Cloonan (who incidentally is not a selector or manager of this team). John shoved the door out, and at this point our son and the other player were on their own in the dressing room with John. What happened next is as follows: John Cloonan told our son and the other player that they "got a jersey to play today, but it would be the last time they would get an Athenry jersey."

    The way in which John Cloonon prevented (our son) from leaving the dressing room with his team, and then the subsequent manner in which John spoke to our son in the dressing room has made (our son) to feel very intimidated. Moreover we feel quite strongly that John Cloonan has breached Underage Code of Behaviour guidelines insofar as he spoke to our son alone, contrary to the recommendation given in the GAA publication "our Games Our Code" page 9, where it states (that coaches should) ‘be accompanied by at least (bold) one other adult at coaching sessions, games and in underage team dressing rooms.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    I agree. I guess. I think the story carries as much weight if he had put in coach A and club official B. Maybe he has a reason why he named them. For me their actions are not the most pressing issues in the article. The reaction of club just doesn't add up. They seem to have made multiple poor decisions. And kept digging a much bigger hole for themselves. Their next AGM would be a good event to attend :)


    Exactly. But an article about the failings of the club would only be 1 page and Kimmage's gratuitous use of the Avonmore advertisement to heap ridicule on one particular individual would not have made the cut. Take all the "spoof" out of the article and there's really not a lot to interest the average reader.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    I think he is.

    our son and another player were asked to stay back in the dressing room by John Cloonan (who incidentally is not a selector or manager of this team). John shoved the door out, and at this point our son and the other player were on their own in the dressing room with John. What happened next is as follows: John Cloonan told our son and the other player that they "got a jersey to play today, but it would be the last time they would get an Athenry jersey."

    The way in which John Cloonon prevented (our son) from leaving the dressing room with his team, and then the subsequent manner in which John spoke to our son in the dressing room has made (our son) to feel very intimidated. Moreover we feel quite strongly that John Cloonan has breached Underage Code of Behaviour guidelines insofar as he spoke to our son alone, contrary to the recommendation given in the GAA publication "our Games Our Code" page 9, where it states (that coaches should) ‘be accompanied by at least (bold) one other adult at coaching sessions, games and in underage team dressing rooms.'



    You do realise that

    1. That is an unproved version of events from a parent who heard something whilst in the stand from "a neighbour's boy"

    2. That is not the same mentor who is alleged to have sworn at the kids

    ??


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,369 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    I tried reading the article but it's a typical Paul Kimmage article where he goes after everything factually like it's the TdF.

    I would say, as a club official, any member of a club that puts themselves in a closed room with 10 year old should be banned from the club immediately, there is no situation where an official should be on their own with minors behind closed doors.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭ beechwood55


    Choochtown wrote: »
    No proof of this whatsoever. If there was I totally agree with you.

    The parent was told something (Kimmage doesn't say what but he knows what the reader will think) by "a neighbour's boy"

    If you had read the full report you will have seen this

    "The hearings committee see it as a duty of care to children that no mentor is permitted to be alone with children at any stage as a clear breach of the Code of Best Practice occurred when John Cloonan, by his own admission, was alone in a dressing room with two children while fulfilling his role as a club coach.

    "This is a most serious matter and the club is required to ensure that no such opportunity presents itself again where this could reoccur.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭ evolving_doors


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Have you actually read the article? Nobody swore at kids ....
    Well they used inverted commas for some reason :confused:""

    "What the **** did you do that for?"

    "What is wrong with that boy?"

    "Will you ****ing move to ****!"

    Choochtown wrote: »
    and [nobody]detained them in a room.
    After togging out with the rest of the Athenry team, and just as the team began to run on to the pitch for the start of the game, our son and another player were asked to stay back in the dressing room by John Cloonan (who incidentally is not a selector or manager of this team). John shoved the door out, and at this point our son and the other player were on their own in the dressing room with John. What happened next is as follows: John Cloonan told our son and the other player that they "got a jersey to play today, but it would be the last time they would get an Athenry jersey."



    Choochtown wrote: »
    Even Kimmage isn't claiming that.

    No he's reporting on it.
    Choochtown wrote: »
    Mind you an article that begins with a quote from "Animal Farm", proceeds to use 20+ lines to describe the "bad man" cursing, makes light of the "good man" doing the same and then finishes with Kimmage miraculously being able to see someone pulling a letter from a file (from down a phone line!!) could maybe persuade people to assume things that just aren't true.

    Kimmage is a clever man and earns a living from this sort of stuff but read the article again and it's very high on emotion and metaphor and very low on fact.

    IS the club denying that it happened?

    If that meeting called to all (except a select few) parents wasn't used to ostracise a family from a community and circle the wagons then I don't know what it was for.

    Quote: "If the players could put half the fire in their bellies that Paddy Kelly has there'd be a lot more silverware around here."

    They're 10 year olds FFS!! It just goes to show they are willing to dismiss their own kids in favour of some demigod.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭ theoneeyedman


    Clareman wrote: »

    I would say, as a club official, any member of a club that puts themselves in a closed room with 10 year old should be banned from the club immediately, there is no situation where an official should be on their own with minors behind closed doors.
    Just for accuracy....
    There is no evidence that they were 'behind closed doors' or in a 'closed room'.

    I had heard about this case a few months ago, it is the contention of e official that he door wasn't closed, it was open/ajar, and that he asked to lads to wait a second after the others ran out onto the pitch.
    I'm not defending him, or his frankly stupid actions, or indeed commenting on his motivation, but let's not sensationalise it any more than it is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    Choochtown wrote:
    No proof of this whatsoever. If there was I totally agree with you.


    Have you even read the article?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭ BENDYBINN


    If you had read the full report you will have seen this

    "The hearings committee see it as a duty of care to children that no mentor is permitted to be alone with children at any stage as a clear breach of the Code of Best Practice occurred when John Cloonan, by his own admission, was alone in a dressing room with two children while fulfilling his role as a club coach.

    "This is a most serious matter and the club is required to ensure that no such opportunity presents itself again where this could reoccur.

    So Mr citizen isn’t allowed to talk to kids alone in a room but Mr teacher is......
    please someone tell me the difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,156 ✭✭✭ ebbsy


    Well if I was the father of that lad the report of this incident wouldn't be in the sport pages of the papers.

    Id be making sure somebody would be getting a real hiding with whatever is to hand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    If you had read the full report you will have seen this

    "The hearings committee see it as a duty of care to children that no mentor is permitted to be alone with children at any stage as a clear breach of the Code of Best Practice occurred when John Cloonan, by his own admission, was alone in a dressing room with two children while fulfilling his role as a club coach.

    "This is a most serious matter and the club is required to ensure that no such opportunity presents itself again where this could reoccur.

    As I said. No proof whatsoever that he closed the door.
    I'm not backing him, I'm not condoning what he did, it was wrong.
    BUT there's only the word of "a neighbour's boy" told to a parent in a stand that he closed the door.

    It may seem like a minor point but the snide insinuations are very unfair particularly as the man in question has been named and continues to be so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    ebbsy wrote: »
    Well if I was the father of that lad the report of this incident wouldn't be in the sport pages of the papers.

    It would be on the front page.


    Agreed.

    Why weren't the coaches approached directly? Why the running to Croke Park and journalists (particularly ones with a gripe with the GAA)??


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,170 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    Choochtown wrote: »
    I am not condoning the language at all but Kimmage has based his sensationalised article around this very minor incident.
    Like many of these 'scandals', the issue isn't so much about the original incident, but about how the organisation deals with it - or fails to deal with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    Well they used inverted commas for some reason :confused:""

    "What the **** did you do that for?"

    "What is wrong with that boy?"

    "Will you ****ing move to ****!"












    No he's reporting on it.



    IS the club denying that it happened?

    If that meeting called to all (except a select few) parents wasn't used to ostracise a family from a community and circle the wagons then I don't know what it was for.

    Quote: "If the players could put half the fire in their bellies that Paddy Kelly has there'd be a lot more silverware around here."

    They're 10 year olds FFS!! It just goes to show they are willing to dismiss their own kids in favour of some demigod.




    Sorry Evolving Doors that's out of order.
    I don't think even Kimmage would stoop to splitting a quote in order to make it lose the original meaning.

    You know full well that my quote was

    "Nobody swore at kids and detained them in a room. Even Kimmage isn't claiming that"

    And it's true nobody did do that. One mentor is alleged to have sworn at the kids and another one to have spoken to them in a room without another adult present.

    But you knew that didn't you?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭ jackboy


    Choochtown wrote: »
    As I said. No proof whatsoever that he closed the door.
    I'm not backing him, I'm not condoning what he did, it was wrong.
    BUT there's only the word of "a neighbour's boy" told to a parent in a stand that he closed the door.

    It makes no difference if the door was open or closed. He was alone with them which is unacceptable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ 9vp63o4jhfa1qr


    Choochtown wrote: »
    As I said. No proof whatsoever that he closed the door.
    I'm not backing him, I'm not condoning what he did, it was wrong.
    BUT there's only the word of "a neighbour's boy" told to a parent in a stand that he closed the door.

    It may seem like a minor point but the snide insinuations are very unfair particularly as the man in question has been named and continues to be so.

    You seem to be overly focussed on the door being open or closed. The issue is, given the history of child abuse in sporting organisations, and clear guidelines on the do's and don'ts for club officials with CHILDREN in their care, in 2016, this club see's such a potentially compromising situation as a minor issue....says a lot about culture and there appears to be little in the club culture to ensure the protection of children....you see it as a minor incident, I disagree fundamentally


  • Registered Users Posts: 738 ✭✭✭ Gaillimh1976


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Sorry Evolving Doors that's out of order.
    I don't think even Kimmage would stoop to splitting a quote in order to make it lose the original meaning.

    You know full well that my quote was

    "Nobody swore at kids and detained them in a room. Even Kimmage isn't claiming that"

    And it's true nobody did do that. One mentor is alleged to have sworn at the kids and another one to have spoken to them in a room without another adult present.

    But you knew that didn't you?

    So they have 2 unfit mentors instead of 1 ?

    How is that any better ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    You seem to be overly focussed on the door being open or closed. The issue is, given the history of child abuse in sporting organisations, and clear guidelines on the do's and don'ts for club officials with CHILDREN in their care, in 2016, this club see's such a potentially compromising situation as a minor issue....says a lot about culture and there appears to be little in the club culture to ensure the protection of children....you see it as a minor incident, I disagree fundamentally


    No you've misunderstood me. I've repeatedly said that what happened was wrong.

    BUT

    the incidents have been dressed-up eg. "The GAA story every parent will want to read blazoned across the front page of one of the most widely-read publications in the country.

    The strong implication is that children are not safe playing GAA sports.

    The actual truth is that the issue has been addressed and the 2 men in question have apologised.

    The 2 men have been named and shamed and the article is full of insinuation (the alleged "closed door" being one) and low on fact.

    The main issue as another poster has pointed out is the poor way in which the matter was dealt with by the club but that article minus all the spoof does not sell papers.

    Neither does the poor way in which the parents dealt with it. (Putting their 10 year olds into under 14 competitive matches , not speaking directly to the coach in question, confiding in an anti-GAA journalist)


  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭ Soulsun


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    In many clubs a 11 year old will have to play U14 due to small numbers

    Cleary the u14 haven't sufficient players to field a team and should consider amalgamation with another club.

    I've rarely seen a GAA coach use bad language to their own kids. At any level.
    They might use it towards the opposition or the ref but rarely their own kids

    Well I have seen it from both coaches and parents.....the code of behaviour and ethics exists in principle only...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ 9vp63o4jhfa1qr


    Choochtown wrote: »
    No you've misunderstood me. I've repeatedly said that what happened was wrong.

    BUT

    the incidents have been dressed-up eg. "The GAA story every parent will want to read blazoned across the front page of one of the most widely-read publications in the country.

    The strong implication is that children are not safe playing GAA sports.

    The actual truth is that the issue has been addressed and the 2 men in question have apologised.

    The 2 men have been named and shamed and the article is full of insinuation (the alleged "closed door" being one) and low on fact.

    The main issue as another poster has pointed out is the poor way in which the matter was dealt with by the club but that article minus all the spoof does not sell papers.

    Neither does the poor way in which the parents dealt with it. (Putting their 10 year olds into under 14 competitive matches , not speaking directly to the coach in question, confiding in an anti-GAA journalist)

    So what happened was wrong but you think it's being sensationalised. Clear breaches of the safeguards for children are not in dispute. You seem to be trivializing the story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,459 ✭✭✭ ArnoldJRimmer


    Choochtown wrote: »
    No you've misunderstood me. I've repeatedly said that what happened was wrong.

    BUT

    the incidents have been dressed-up eg. "The GAA story every parent will want to read blazoned across the front page of one of the most widely-read publications in the country.

    The strong implication is that children are not safe playing GAA sports.

    The actual truth is that the issue has been addressed and the 2 men in question have apologised.

    The 2 men have been named and shamed and the article is full of insinuation (the alleged "closed door" being one) and low on fact.

    The main issue as another poster has pointed out is the poor way in which the matter was dealt with by the club but that article minus all the spoof does not sell papers.

    Neither does the poor way in which the parents dealt with it. (Putting their 10 year olds into under 14 competitive matches , not speaking directly to the coach in question, confiding in an anti-GAA journalist)

    After that meeting was set up with the rest of the community, with the main purpose of discrediting and ridiculing a family with genuine complaints, put through the right channels, and which were ignored by the club until they were forced to address them, I really couldn't give a [email protected] about the 2 lads being named in a national paper.

    I don't know how much involvement they had in this meeting, but its the actions of the club throughout all this which has shamed them


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,156 ✭✭✭ ebbsy


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Agreed.

    Why weren't the coaches approached directly? Why the running to Croke Park and journalists (particularly ones with a gripe with the GAA)??

    +1

    The fathers in question should have grown a set and dealt with the people in question themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    So what happened was wrong but you think it's being sensationalised. Clear breaches of the safeguards for children are not in dispute. You seem to be trivializing the story.


    Absolutely not.

    I just don't like seeing the entire association being dragged through the mud because of 1 man swearing, 1 man talking to 2 underage players without another adult present and 1 clubs poor way of dealing with it.

    Remember this is "The GAA story every parent will want to read"


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ 9vp63o4jhfa1qr


    ebbsy wrote: »
    +1

    The fathers in question should have grown a set and dealt with the people in question themselves.
    Thankfully the parents went through proper channels. Unfortunately the club didn't.
    There is an inference in your post that the men should have used more base methods to sort out the matter...shameful


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