The Sub 4 Support Thread

Murph_D

smashiner wrote: »

Hi all,
I am ticking along nicely (I think) with the DCM training and did my first 20 miler on Sunday (5:57 per KM)and felt the best that I have ever felt after doing a 20 miler (includes DCM 14&15 training). RayCun's extra homework homework a few weeks ago is paying off I think

I plan to do another two 20 milers next weekend and then on the 07th and then it's into taper mode, so I think that I should be in good shape endurance wise anyway for having a 'bash' at sub 4, although I am not certain that I will last at the Sub 4 pace for the last 6 miles of the full DCM, fingers crossed.

I was wondering what other people are doing on their midweek runs, I am doing a few 10K's (6:00 per km slowish) but I have also started to lengthen my faster run up to a HM in the middle of the week at 5:40 per KM (race pace) with a plan to hitting somewhere around a 1:50-1:52 HM in the next few weeks in training (HM PB is 1:49:30 last year).

Is anyone else doing this, or should I be doing something else in order to inject a bit of pace into the auld legs, as I feel that I need to have a few faster HM training runs under the belt before the big day?
Also should I leave the 20 mile LSR's at the same pace to avoid injury, or should I try to shave a few minutes off them too, my gut (and ankles) are telling me stay at that pace?

Any advice would be helpful.

To me, that first 20miler is a tad on the speedy side - you could go out to 6:20 easily and still not be beyond the LR pace range for a 4 hour runner. There is a place for fast LRs and I’d bank that one and slow the next one down, especially if you are ramping up the midweek MP run.

eyrie

Question for any of the others here who are following the Grads plan at the moment (or indeed anyone else who can advise!) - this weekend has a 75 min "tempo" instead of a regular long run.

Now the training paces from the calculator that goes with the plan have tempo pace for me coming in at the same as predicted marathon pace (8:30 - 8:17 for tempo, 8:28 for MP). I don't plan to run anywhere remotely near this in the marathon (more like 9:00 or something in that region). So at this stage in the plan, do you reckon it's more beneficial to use the tempo pace as planned anyway, or is the idea behind this one to get a good stretch at PMP and get the body used to that pace (in which case I would run it slower)?

Not sure if I'm explaining this in a way that makes any sense at all, but would be curious to know what other people are planning or would recommend!

Hedgehoggy

eyrie wrote: »

Question for any of the others here who are following the Grads plan at the moment (or indeed anyone else who can advise!) - this weekend has a 75 min "tempo" instead of a regular long run.

Now the training paces from the calculator that goes with the plan have tempo pace for me coming in at the same as predicted marathon pace (8:30 - 8:17 for tempo, 8:28 for MP). I don't plan to run anywhere remotely near this in the marathon (more like 9:00 or something in that region). So at this stage in the plan, do you reckon it's more beneficial to use the tempo pace as planned anyway, or is the idea behind this one to get a good stretch at PMP and get the body used to that pace (in which case I would run it slower)?

Not sure if I'm explaining this in a way that makes any sense at all, but would be curious to know what other people are planning or would recommend!

I dont know if this is any help but I'm following the meno plan and all of the sessions from now on are at MP with some MP built into the LRs as well - I've found this useful as it's helped me to tune into the pace - the first few sessions I was completely overshooting it. It's also given me confidence that I can keep MP going

ariana`

eyrie wrote: »

Question for any of the others here who are following the Grads plan at the moment (or indeed anyone else who can advise!) - this weekend has a 75 min "tempo" instead of a regular long run.

Now the training paces from the calculator that goes with the plan have tempo pace for me coming in at the same as predicted marathon pace (8:30 - 8:17 for tempo, 8:28 for MP). I don't plan to run anywhere remotely near this in the marathon (more like 9:00 or something in that region). So at this stage in the plan, do you reckon it's more beneficial to use the tempo pace as planned anyway, or is the idea behind this one to get a good stretch at PMP and get the body used to that pace (in which case I would run it slower)?

Not sure if I'm explaining this in a way that makes any sense at all, but would be curious to know what other people are planning or would recommend!

You explained it perfectly, I'm interested in the same eyrie. I've been using my faster 5k time for the paces but even using my HM time, my tempo pace is still faster than my PMP.

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

I dont know if this is any help but I'm following the meno plan and all of the sessions from now on are at MP with some MP built into the LRs as well - I've found this useful as it's helped me to tune into the pace - the first few sessions I was completely overshooting it. It's also given me confidence that I can keep MP going

Thanks. It makes a lot of sense to be practicing actual PMP at this stage of the day.

eyrie

ariana` wrote: »

Thanks. It makes a lot of sense to be practicing actual PMP at this stage of the day.

Exactly. I think this has to be what's intended, given the stage we're at in the plans. Unless I'm told otherwise I think I'll do it at PMP or thereabouts rather than the tempo pace I've been using up to now.

ariana`

eyrie wrote: »

Exactly. I think this has to be what's intended, given the stage we're at in the plans. Unless I'm told otherwise I think I'll do it at PMP or thereabouts rather than the tempo pace I've been using up to now.

Likewise eyrie, unless i hear otherwise I'll be doing PMP.

Safiri

eyrie wrote: »

Question for any of the others here who are following the Grads plan at the moment (or indeed anyone else who can advise!) - this weekend has a 75 min "tempo" instead of a regular long run.

Now the training paces from the calculator that goes with the plan have tempo pace for me coming in at the same as predicted marathon pace (8:30 - 8:17 for tempo, 8:28 for MP). I don't plan to run anywhere remotely near this in the marathon (more like 9:00 or something in that region). So at this stage in the plan, do you reckon it's more beneficial to use the tempo pace as planned anyway, or is the idea behind this one to get a good stretch at PMP and get the body used to that pace (in which case I would run it slower)?

Not sure if I'm explaining this in a way that makes any sense at all, but would be curious to know what other people are planning or would recommend!

It's up to you but the idea of the tempo at that pace isn't to get marathon pace work in, it's to get some steady high end aerobic training in around a pace(2 hour race pace) that has some psysiological importance which I won't go that much detail into as it's a science book unto itself. It's up to you which you want to try, you won't be far off the mark with whichever you do.

Testosterscone

Safiri summed it up in one.

This is a session that can be tailored for physical or mental strength. Some people will get more confidence in running at race pace and that is fine. Others are looking to get the full physical boost.

Neither would be wrong but either choice could be the best option depending on the person

Pink11

I've been doing all PMP last few weeks except for a slower pace on the longer runs (few PMP miles in middle and end of LSR).

skyblue46

Pink11 wrote: »

I've been doing all PMP last few weeks except for a slower pace on the longer runs (few PMP miles in middle and end of LSR).

So have you not being doing any easy/gentle runs? All yours have been MP or long runs with MP?

eyrie

Testosterscone wrote: »

Safiri summed it up in one.

This is a session that can be tailored for physical or mental strength. Some people will get more confidence in running at race pace and that is fine. Others are looking to get the full physical boost.

Neither would be wrong but either choice could be the best option depending on the person

Ok cool, thanks for responding.
I think the fact that I would much rather go for the race pace option means I'd benefit more from the other one

Pink11

skyblue46 wrote: »

So have you not being doing any easy/gentle runs? All yours have been MP or long runs with MP?

I'ts only in the last 3 weeks I've increased to more PMP.

I also run home from work twice a week which ends up being a VERY easy no pressure 3 miles (stopping at traffic lights and I also have a backpack). I haven't been counting them as training though.

bucketybuck

Yevon wrote: »

Anyone else having a bit of motivational exhaustion this week after the half? Felt I needed a bit more rest and I've only got out for one slow run. Need to get back on track, 3/4 Marathon on next weekend.

I have to admit to feeling it in the legs a bit this week. Its a bit of a slog and not much enjoyment to be had, even if I am getting out and doing the runs.

Nearly there though, once I get this weekends 20 miles over me its all downhill from there!

Pink11

Yes to exhaustion here too guys. Ended up doing nothing since Saturday until tonight.

It led me to break a golden rule this evening: 'never make up missed mileage'. I panicked and did 10 miles PMP tonight, going to rest tomorrow and 21 miles on Saturday... eekk.

Singer

Pink11 wrote: »

Yes to exhaustion here too guys. Ended up doing nothing since Saturday until tonight.

It led me to break a golden rule this evening: 'never make up missed mileage'. I panicked and did 10 miles PMP tonight, going to rest tomorrow and 21 miles on Saturday... eekk.

Any chance of moving out the long run to Sunday and doing some easy miles in between? That looks a bit too intense.

The Black Oil

My motivation's fine. But, I did 14 miles yesterday, 10 at MP. Found it quite tough going - messed with my head a bit. Third loop of the hill...nope. Rest of the week is easy. Today's recovery was good.

RayCun

Pink11 wrote: »

I've been doing all PMP last few weeks except for a slower pace on the longer runs (few PMP miles in middle and end of LSR).

But you are also feeling very tired? Why not cut down on the PMP?

Pink11

RayCun wrote: »

But you are also feeling very tired? Why not cut down on the PMP?

I actually have been slacking the last 10 days or so & I guess I'm starting to panic/feel guilty now that I'm starting to feel back to normal again. I've had a lingering cold/sore throat that has zapped my energy. I think it's just been down to that more than anything.

Would you think there would be any harm in me slowing down the pace on some of my runs? I'm actually really nervous about this bloody marathon. Had another 'dream' about it last night. I'm cracking up!

Thanks singer, I'm going to try and move the long run to Sunday but moving a family commitment is proving to be difficult. So I'll probably need to get it done tomorrow ;\

RayCun

Pink11 wrote: »

Would you think there would be any harm in me slowing down the pace on some of my runs?

Easy runs should be easy. There is no real benefit to running at 10 minutes a mile instead of 10.30 a mile on an easy run, just get the miles in and leave the work to the sessions.

Pink11

RayCun wrote: »

Easy runs should be easy. There is no real benefit to running at 10 minutes a mile instead of 10.30 a mile on an easy run, just get the miles in and leave the work to the sessions.

Thanks. It's reassuring to read that!

I've pretty much stopped doing speed sessions now though and I'm concerned.

But planning on fitting a parkrun into my 21m LSR tomorrow and doing the 3 speed miles there.

My real issue is that I'm terrified my injury will come back to say hello :eek:

DubOnHoliday

The vast majority of my plan has been easy runs. I was beginning to doubt my training but running 1:38 in the half last weekend has given me good confidence. Now I’m deciding what pace to go for on the big day. It’s my first marathon, I’m a bit worried ( if I try maintain 5:10 pace for the whole lot)... what will happen after 30k. I would be happy with anything under 4 to be honest.

duffer247

Update from me.
Training continues to go well although I found this week a real slog. A few late night runs I guess will do that.
Like Dubrunner experience of half marathon last weekend has given me a great confidence boost, leaving the 1.40 pacers behind at mile 11 and coming in at 1.38
What pace group to go with on the big day remains a question but not one I'm losing sleep over. Focus now is sticking to plan and getting the miles in.
Last 20m this weekend, best of luck to all on their LSR this weekend

seanin4711

as Anne O'Dwyer would sing long ago.

Confidence dented after Berlin. Body cramped up like never before @35kms and a struggle to finish.had camelpak on and drinking regular.

listened to matt dixons podcast on cramping and he maintained it could have been as a result of chronic training load and not enough rest.(rings true as training interrupted by 5+ weeks within a 16 week cycle, forced compression of plan.

https://purplepatchfitness.com/education/podcasts

Following HH multiple marathons for Dublin.
https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/multiple-marathons/

6 week gap between

week one was easy intensity,managed 80% of it
week 2 12mile LSR today to finish off -100% complete

weeks 3/4 can increase intensity with weeks 5/6 tapering again.
hope next one goes better!

ewc78

Did a 15 mile Marathon Paced run today. Went really well. Looking forward to the big day.

Pink11

Survived the 22 miler on Saturday. Avg pace of 9.29.

Longwood on Sunday!

Think I'm going to try running DCM on empty. I ran Saturday again with no breakfast and find I feel much better with just tailwind.

Bare in mind I have a super sensitive stomach though!

smashiner

Advice time please...;)

I did my second 20 Miler yesterday (6:00 per KM pace) and it went well overall, felt a little bit stronger at the finish than last weeks, so hopefully that is a good sign. I did 95K in the past 8 days (32,21,10,32), so I am feeling a little jaded at the moment and plan to take a few days off to recover a little as I don't want to burn myself out (getting a bit sensible at long last).

My question is should I be happy with having two 20 milers in the bag (plus a few other LSRs of 30,27,27 in the build up) and bank the LSR's 'now complete' and aim for this week to look something like:

Monday & Tuesday Rest/ Swim days, Wednesday 10/12K, Friday 10K, Sunday fast (ish) HM (1:53/1:52) and then taper.

Or
Monday & Tuesday Rest/ Swim days, Wednesday 10/12K, Friday 10K, Sunday another 20 mile LSR and then taper.

Or
Put the feet up and go on the beer for 4 weeks:eek:

P.S. Murph_D I did genuinely try to go slower than 6:00 per Km as per your advice but my MP3 player died after only 8K and I didn't have Meatloaf on my shoulder to slow me down and I ran a tad faster that I planned.....:rolleyes:

My trusty Philips MP3 player is now toast (frozen screen) and I am not sure if I have backed up my music elsewhere.....d'oh. Have to scan the laptop later!!

Pink11

Do you go to any strength classes smashiner?

smashiner

Pink11 wrote: »

Do you go to any strength classes smashiner?

Not really,
I would go swimming 2-3 times a week, which I feel is a good all round work out without the impact training of running, I find that it definitely helps me to unwind after an LSR and helps a bit with the core too. I would also do sit ups in the morning for about 5-10 minutes along with stretching and foam rollering.

Do you or would you recommend any particular S&C classes or exercises that work for you?

I am in the shape of my life.....round is a shape ....right?? :eek:

Pink11

smashiner wrote: »

Not really,
I would go swimming 2-3 times a week, which I feel is a good all round work out without the impact training of running, I find that it definitely helps me to unwind after an LSR and helps a bit with the core too. I would also do sit ups in the morning for about 5-10 minutes along with stretching and foam rollering.

Do you or would you recommend any particular S&C classes or exercises that work for you?

I am in the shape of my life.....round is a shape ....right?? :eek:

Swimming is fab, I should try and fit that into my week too.

Got injured straight after DCM '15. Even with fantastic physio and a good after care plan I had been hobbling around until I started these classes in Jan '18.

What I actually do is barre (cross between Pilates & body strength weight work) which is all over body strengthening. My flexibility has improved so much also! It has completely changed everything for me.

Besides keeping my injury at bay (fingers crossed), the biggest thing is that I now recover quickly - pre injury even though I ran well (by my standards) I would be drained, exhausted and had sore muscles for days after a LSR or race. I ran 22 miles on Saturday. I felt absolutely fine Sunday morning and did a class. No way in hell could I have done that before.

Might not be your cup of tea but I rekon a mix of weights and body weight type classes like pilates would have the same effect. Not sure where you're located but few people in work were raving about this crowd: https://underdogboxing.ie/strength-and-conditioning-in-dublin-2/#1510167628737-f362cc82-878a


I'm always harping on about my bloody injury :pac: sorry.

smashiner

Pink11 wrote: »

Swimming is fab, I should try and fit that into my week too.


I'm always harping on about my bloody injury :pac: sorry.

No worries, your S&C approach looks to be really working out for you, fair play

I am 'Mr Bump' when it comes to injuries. I broke my ankle years ago (now arthritic but ok once I keep running ironically), broke my arm (ulna bone in half), had a steel plate and six screws fitted for a year, dislocated a shoulder, cracked a few ribs (all Football related) , then IT Band issues, burst blood vessels in my knee, Achilles problems (running related) and a host of scars (11)from other aliments too long to mention! Other than that I am ok.........:)

I am held together with lollipop sticks and sellotape these days.

High strength cod liver oil tablets and Rubex and an orange foam roller are my friends these days.......I am afraid to stop running and swimming as I will seize up like the Tin Man out of the Wizard of Oz and never get going again :eek: