The Sub 4 Support Thread

Pink11

Sub 4 goers - what is your plan for the half on Saturday?

Murph_D

Lazare wrote: »

Oh of course, a paceband holds no magic powers. I suppose what it represents though is a good pacing strategy, which is vitally important. Particularly for DCM which is set up for a negative.

I had an excellent advice driven pacing strategy last year that I would not have been able to follow without that band.

Ah fair enough - there’s certainly a place for a pace band and it can help, especially later in race when arithmetic is more difficult.

As this is the sub-4 thread though, I’d argue that worrying about positive/negative splits is a bit of a distraction. You can certainly go sub-4 with a positive, and I’d wager that most of us did on the first (and later) efforts. That’s my experience anyway - I’ve yet to run a negative split at marathon distance, and have very rarely do it at any distance above 5 miles.

No harm in trying though, especially if it helps you start at the correct pace.

ewc78

I think people get too caught up in race predictors and pace bands and what not. I want to run a sub 4 Marathon. To do that I need to hold around a 9min/mile pace for 26.2 miles.

I've been constantly doing 9min/mile pace runs in my training and have got comfortable enough at that pace. I've done this by doing a long midweek run at that pace and by doing them at the end of my long run every 2nd week. For example last week I did 19miles,10miles easy and last 9 miles at Marathon Pace.
Rather than worrying about what your half marathon time is or what a race predictor says based off times from other distances,is it not better to prepare yourself for running 26.2 miles at 9min/mile pace(or whatever your goal pace is) by training to have the endurance to do that.

I have no idea how fast I can run a half but I'm really not bothered as I know I can hold 9min/mile pace for a good distance and I'm hoping I can hold it for the full Marathon come the day.

ewc78

Pink11 wrote: »

Sub 4 goers - what is your plan for the half on Saturday?

I'm just gonna use it as a Marathon Pace run.

Pink11

ewc78 wrote: »

I'm just gonna use it as a Marathon Pace run.

I'm tempted to race it but PMP is probably wiser. Keep the half racing till after DCM. Have gingerbread half in November.

Rossi7

Would racing the half not give you a better indication of where your at regards your sub 4 goal

RayCun

ewc78 wrote: »

Rather than worrying about what your half marathon time is or what a race predictor says based off times from other distances,is it not better to prepare yourself for running 26.2 miles at 9min/mile pace(or whatever your goal pace is) by training to have the endurance to do that.

They're not exclusive. You train, you race, you train some more. The races are good in themselves and they give you useful feedback on your fitness. If you can run a good distance at marathon pace, that's good. If you can race a shorter distance faster than marathon pace, that's also good.

EC1000

Rossi7 wrote: »

Would racing the half not give you a better indication of where your at regards your sub 4 goal

Yes, but not at the expense of a week's training this close to the marathon. It will work for some (who can recover quickly from hard efforts) but some people could take a week to recover from a half marathon at race pace.

RayCun

The downside to going solely on training is that in training we are never sure how much harder we can go. After your 19 miler, you may have felt wrecked, you may have felt that you could have gone one for a couple of miles at MP, you may have felt that you could have switched from easy to MP earlier... but it's all kind of guesswork. You think you could do more, but you're not sure how much more.

In a race situation, if you race it properly, then at the end of the race you think that was it, you emptied the tank, that was absolutely as fast as you could have gone for the distance. So that's a fixed point, while your training run is a bit of a mystery, you know you can go further/faster but don't know by how much.

After you've run a marathon, you can compare your training for one marathon to your training for the next, and estimate how much you've improved between one and the other, how much faster you can go. But the first is more of a step into the unknown, so the more information you have to work out a realistic finishing time, the better.

Rossi7

EC1000 wrote: »

Rossi7 wrote: »

Would racing the half not give you a better indication of where your at regards your sub 4 goal

Yes, but not at the expense of a week's training this close to the marathon. It will work for some (who can recover quickly from hard efforts) but some people could take a week to recover from a half marathon at race pace.

The majority of peolple doing DCM will have the half as part of their training plan ( boards novices and HH have it penciled in with a 20miler the next week)

ewc78

RayCun wrote: »

The downside to going solely on training is that in training we are never sure how much harder we can go. After your 19 miler, you may have felt wrecked, you may have felt that you could have gone one for a couple of miles at MP, you may have felt that you could have switched from easy to MP earlier... but it's all kind of guesswork. You think you could do more, but you're not sure how much more.

In a race situation, if you race it properly, then at the end of the race you think that was it, you emptied the tank, that was absolutely as fast as you could have gone for the distance. So that's a fixed point, while your training run is a bit of a mystery, you know you can go further/faster but don't know by how much.

After you've run a marathon, you can compare your training for one marathon to your training for the next, and estimate how much you've improved between one and the other, how much faster you can go. But the first is more of a step into the unknown, so the more information you have to work out a realistic finishing time, the better.

Fair enough. But this is my 3rd Marathon not my first.

EC1000

Rossi7 wrote: »

The majority of peolple doing DCM will have the half as part of their training plan ( boards novices and HH have it penciled in with a 20miler the next week)

Yep, and that is fine. However, if you have any sort of a niggle take care not to race it at the cost of the following week's training as the next three to four weeks from now are vital for 20mile+ efforts (in my opinion!). If you need a week to recover from the half, there are very few weeks left for long runs when you take taper into consideration. It completely depends on the person though.

Rossi7

EC1000 wrote: »

Rossi7 wrote: »

The majority of peolple doing DCM will have the half as part of their training plan ( boards novices and HH have it penciled in with a 20miler the next week)

Yep, and that is fine. However, if you have any sort of a niggle take care not to race it at the cost of the following week's training as the next three to four weeks from now are vital for 20mile+ efforts (in my opinion!). If you need a week to recover from the half, there are very few weeks left for long runs when you take taper into consideration. It completely depends on the person though.

Well the Novices Plan has worked for a number of years so who am I to judge the training plan

Murph_D

ewc78 wrote: »

Fair enough. But this is my 3rd Marathon not my first.

But a recent race is the best indicator of your current fitness.

ewc78

Pink11 wrote: »

I'm tempted to race it but PMP is probably wiser. Keep the half racing till after DCM. Have gingerbread half in November.

Yeah I think anyway doing it at PMP is a better approach for me anyway.

EC1000

Rossi7 wrote: »

Well the Novices Plan has worked for a number of years so who am I to judge the training plan

Just make sure you think about it. Many people automatically assume that racing (as opposed to running) the Dublin half is a good idea prior to the Dublin full. However, depending on when Halloween falls, the gap between the two can vary. For instance, in 2016, you would have had 6 weeks between the half and full. This year there are only 5 weeks between the half and the full. That's one less weekend (i.e. one less 20 miler).

RayCun

ewc78 wrote: »

Fair enough. But this is my 3rd Marathon not my first.

ah, didn't realise

you've more information to go on then, sure

I'd still be a fan of racing to learn things that you don't learn from training, but not so important when you have more experience

Pomplamousse

Pink11 wrote: »

Sub 4 goers - what is your plan for the half on Saturday?

I was debating what to do for a while but after getting advice on my log from much more experienced runners than myself, I've decided to race it. Current PB is 1:48:23 so I'm hoping to get anything below that. I'll probably start off with the 1:50 pacers and try to push on past them early enough.
If I'm just not feeling it on the day, or if the weather is sh1te or something, I might just stick with the 1:50 pacers for the whole thing. But I think I'll need to be getting at least sub 1:50 to be confident about targeting a sub-4 marathon.

Hedgehoggy

Pomplamousse wrote: »

I was debating what to do for a while but after getting advice on my log from much more experienced runners than myself, I've decided to race it. Current PB is 1:48:23 so I'm hoping to get anything below that. I'll probably start off with the 1:50 pacers and try to push on past them early enough.
If I'm just not feeling it on the day, or if the weather is sh1te or something, I might just stick with the 1:50 pacers for the whole thing. But I think I'll need to be getting at least sub 1:50 to be confident about targeting a sub-4 marathon.

Good luck with the race! What are you hoping for??

ariana`

Pomplamousse wrote: »

I was debating what to do for a while but after getting advice on my log from much more experienced runners than myself, I've decided to race it. Current PB is 1:48:23 so I'm hoping to get anything below that. I'll probably start off with the 1:50 pacers and try to push on past them early enough.
If I'm just not feeling it on the day, or if the weather is sh1te or something, I might just stick with the 1:50 pacers for the whole thing. But I think I'll need to be getting at least sub 1:50 to be confident about targeting a sub-4 marathon.

Best of luck Pomplamousse!

ewc78

Hope the weather is a bit better tomorrow morning than it is this morning!

tHE vAGGABOND

EWC78 got me thinking - maybe of doing it with 2-hour pacers [rather than going with 1.50 folk and not really believing in heart of hearts that I can stick with them - be that right or wrong].

So I think I might run to the park & run home after. So with the half, it would be a 21 odd mile running day - with 2 hours at marathon pace in middle [...but with a break before and after dropping bags etc etc, not a "real" 21-mile run].

Since I'm now doing Amsterdam [week before DCM], and doing for fun & have a bit of work travel coming up - doing this way and not race seems to make more sense to me [...and just pray that I can hang onto 4 hours pacers in Amsterdam - hoping my stamina and leg strength brings me thru]

OOnegative

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

EWC78 got me thinking - maybe of doing it with 2-hour pacers [rather than going with 1.50 folk and not really believing in heart of hearts that I can stick with them - be that right or wrong].

So I think I might run to the park & run home after. So with the half, it would be a 21 odd mile running day - with 2 hours at marathon pace in middle [...but with a break before and after dropping bags etc etc, not a "real" 21-mile run].

Since I'm now doing Amsterdam [week before DCM], and doing for fun & have a bit of work travel coming up - doing this way and not race seems to make more sense to me [...and just pray that I can hang onto 4 hours pacers in Amsterdam - hoping my stamina and leg strength brings me thru]

Marthastew pacing 2hrs.

Pink11

Pomplamousse wrote: »

I was debating what to do for a while but after getting advice on my log from much more experienced runners than myself, I've decided to race it. Current PB is 1:48:23 so I'm hoping to get anything below that. I'll probably start off with the 1:50 pacers and try to push on past them early enough.
If I'm just not feeling it on the day, or if the weather is sh1te or something, I might just stick with the 1:50 pacers for the whole thing. But I think I'll need to be getting at least sub 1:50 to be confident about targeting a sub-4 marathon.

I'll be doing something very similair. My PB is only 1.49.xx so ideally I'd like to get a 1.48 or under if I'm feeling ok.

But I still have this cold and sore throat & generally feeling quite miserable so have no idea how I'll fair tomorrow. But I feel the same, for my confidence going into DCM I want a sub 1.50 tomorrow.

I actually feel more nervous about this marathon than the last two! I even had an nightmare about it last night. I need to get a life :P

In my first I didn't care about the time, I just took it all in. Last time I was injured so finishing was the most I wanted.

Pomplamousse

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Good luck with the race! What are you hoping for??

Thanks!Dream time would be 1:44:59 but I'm not sure I'm quite there yet fitness wise. To be honest if I get a PB I'll be delighted.

ariana` wrote: »

Best of luck Pomplamousse!

Thank you

Pink11 wrote: »

I'll be doing something very similair. My PB is only 1.49.xx so ideally I'd like to get a 1.48 or under if I'm feeling ok.

But I still have this cold and sore throat & generally feeling quite miserable so have no idea how I'll fair tomorrow. But I feel the same, for my confidence going into DCM I want a sub 1.50 tomorrow.

I actually feel more nervous about this marathon than the last two! I even had an nightmare about it last night. I need to get a life :P

In my first I didn't care about the time, I just took it all in. Last time I was injured so finishing was the most I wanted.

Oh no, hope your cold and sore throat have much improved by tomorrow. I've been convinced all day today that I can feel the beginning of a sinus infection coming on, fingers crossed I'm wrong and it's just pre-race madness:(
I also need to get a life cos I had the first of my 2018 marathon dreams a couple of weeks ago Best of luck tomorrow, hope you get your 1:48 or under!

seanin4711

failed sub 4hr in berlin.
injurys forced compression of training cycle which in hind sight forced serious cramping( overtraining/lack of resting) @35kms = 4:11:(:(:(
looking to address in Dublin anyone any advice for doing two within 6 weeks?
thanks
J

Murph_D

seanin4711 wrote: »

failed sub 4hr in berlin.
injurys forced compression of training cycle which in hind sight forced serious cramping( overtraining/lack of resting) @35kms = 4:11:(:(:(
looking to address in Dublin anyone any advice for doing two within 6 weeks?
thanks
J

Too bad. Hasn’t this happened before, a couple of times now? What kind of traning have you been doing? Doesn’t sound like youre really in shape for a back to back. P&D has a 4-8 week rollover schedule if you insist, though! I’d be erring on the recovery side.

RayCun

If the last training cycle was cut short by injury, what do you hope to gain in a six week cycle?

duffer247

Pink11 wrote: »

Sub 4 goers - what is your plan for the half on Saturday?

I'll be racing it. For 2 reasons really, 1 I don't have the discipline not to and I think for me it will work as a good indicator.
Training has been going really well but last 2 weeks I've been very tired.
Speaking of which... I should be asleep

seanin4711

RayCun wrote: »

If the last training cycle was cut short by injury, what do you hope to gain in a six week cycle?

do what was intended in berlin - sub 4hr.
training was interrupted mid cycle 5 weeks out of 16 forced mileage to be increased more than prescribed in the LSR. rest was squeezed a tad.
knocked out a 1:46 half two weeks before it and went for 8km day after berlin,felt ok.