The Sub 4 Support Thread

Swashbuckler

seanin4711 wrote:

do what was intended in berlin - sub 4hr. training was interrupted mid cycle 5 weeks out of 16 forced mileage to be increased more than prescribed in the LSR. rest was squeezed a tad. knocked out a 1:46 half two weeks before it and went for 8km day after berlin,felt ok.

You ran a 1.46 half during the taper period for a sub 4hr marathon attempt?

Lazare

Lazare wrote: »

Oh of course, a paceband holds no magic powers. I suppose what it represents though is a good pacing strategy, which is vitally important. Particularly for DCM which is set up for a negative.

I had an excellent advice driven pacing strategy last year that I would not have been able to follow without that band.

Been meaning to follow this up and share the advice I got. For anyone chasing sub 4 in Dublin it's sage advice.

Particularly anyone who plans to track the 4 hour pacers, or use an even splits pace band. It's not a good idea at all.

This advice was from a friend of mine, a Dublin black belt, a 2:32 marathoner who knows the course like it's his back garden. He used to post here a lot under the handle 'tunguska'.

The mistake a lot of people make when it comes to DCM is they fail to run the course as it unfolds before them. Instead they run according to a pace plan that doesnt really take account of the actual terrain theyre running. Which means blow up city........my advice dude is to aim to be at halfway in 2:01/2:02.
And in between the start and halfway run the course as it comes to you. Meaning if you get to hill( and theres plenty in the first half) slow right down and jog up it. Forget what it says on your pace band for that mile, just slow down, tap up the hill gently.
Dont try to compensate for lost time, let it go because in the 2nd half theres lots of declines and fast stretches. And when you get to the 2nd half start to wind up the pace and be more aggressive.
You'll get your 3:58 that way, trust me. But you need to be very careful in the first half.
Also the very first mile is crucial. Most go tearing off like its the kentucky derby......take off like its a sunday afternoon jog. Let everyone else go. Which they will. Madness can grip you in the marathon. Your job is to keep your head while all around are losing theirs. Take off slowly and run the course. Then at halfway start to be aggressive. If you do that you'll win the day my friend.

I had the 4:10 pacers pass me at Kevin St, I started to question things, but I calmed down and trusted my plan. I didn't catch them until the Phoenix monument, almost 5 miles in. The 4 hour pacers were way ahead in the distance. I didn't catch them until Milltown. 19 miles in. Came home in 3:58:08.

Don't track the 4 hour pacers, you need to let them away in the first half, stay with them up Chapelizod hill and you will end your race. You just won't know about it until two hours later.

bucketybuck

I got to say, it doesn't reflect well on the 4hr pacers if people are saying not to go with them when trying for 4 hrs...

Surely the pacers know all that as much as we do and are taking the terrain into account?

Lazare

bucketybuck wrote: »

I got to say, it doesn't reflect well on the 4hr pacers if people are saying not to go with them when trying for 4 hrs...

Surely the pacers know all that as much as we do and are taking the terrain into account?

Their job is to run even splits. You definitely utilise them, you just don't run with them the whole way.

I caught them at mile 19 then used them. They got me there.

bucketybuck

Lazare wrote: »

Their job is to run even splits. You definitely utilise them, you just don't run with them the whole way.

I caught them at mile 19 then used them. They got me there.

I'll happily admit if I misunderstand the role of pacers, and certainly don't want to denigrate people giving up their time and effort to help out.

But I thought their job was to pace out a 4hr marathon, not simply to run at a constant pace for 4 hours?

Kellygirl

I agree with you in one way but it’s standard in most races that pacers run even splits so best to be aware of it.

Lazare

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'll happily admit if I misunderstand the role of pacers, and certainly don't want to denigrate people giving up their time and effort to help out.

But I thought their job was to pace out a 4hr marathon, not simply to run at a constant pace for 4 hours?

They're there as a guide.

For instance, today at the half, I was aiming for sub 1:42.

I utilised the 1:40 pacers throughout. I would spot them ahead at a particular landmark, check the time on my watch and check it again when I reached that same landmark to see how I was fairing.

It's up to you to survey the course and utilise them as suits it, in the case of DCM that's, in my opinion, and experience, letting them away and catching them later.

ISOP

good pacers will not be running the entire race at exactly the same pace. Going up big hills, they will pull back a bit and get bring it back on the downhills and flat sections, it would be madness to attack hills

seanin4711

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You ran a 1.46 half during the taper period for a sub 4hr marathon attempt?

taper for two weeks after it.
it was a stress test and felt confident after it.

RayCun

The pacers don't run at the exact same pace, but they do run fairly even splits.
They really don't have the opportunity to explain a more complicated pacing plan to everyone who might be following them.

I always tell people to use pacers as a brake rather than an accelerator. They stop you from going too fast, but if you feel they are going to fast for you, you should let them go. In particular, let them go ahead on uphills and catch them on downhills.

Planning for a negative split is good, especially in Dublin. You have to bear in mind that most people running the marathon haven't put much thought into a pace plan, and many are barely aware of how fast they need to run for a given time goal. Loads and loads of people run a big positive split because they simply don't know any better. For all of those people, the even splits the pacers will run is a massive improvement, and makes them much more likely to run their goal time.

Lazare

If you hit your target by tracking the 4 hour pacers great. I would argue though, with a negative split plan, your target should be 3:55.

Murph_D

seanin4711 wrote: »

taper for two weeks after it.
it was a stress test and felt confident after it.

Do you still think it was a good idea? After several attempts at the target, what might you do differently next time?

ewc78

1:56 for me in the half marathon yesterday but honestly time wasn't really the most important thing I got or wanted from yesterday. Felt great the whole run and finished feeling fresh and could have kept running.

It was the first proper race I've done since DCM 16 so I really wanted to practice a few things before DCM 18. Certain things like taking gels I haven't done since DCM 16 and even though I probably didn't need them yesterday I took one at mile 5 and one at mile 10 just to make sure they agreed with me. Also practiced putting a high 5 zero tab into a bottle while running as I plan on doing that in the Marathon.

I followed the 2hr Pacer and took on board the advice given here about using them as a guide rather than being stuck to them . I let them off a bit on the hills and caught up with them on the down hills,even stopped for a pee at one stage but didn't panic as the pacers moved a good bit ahead of me,so it was really good to practice that running at Marathon Pace before the Marathon itself, so thanks to everyone who gave that advice as it worked really well for me.

At around mile 8 at the top of that hill that brings you out of the Park(sorry don't know the name of the road) I decided to pass out the Pacers and push the pace on a bit.

Could I have went with say the 1:50 pacers and kept with them? Yeah probably. Like I said I finished feeling very fresh. But I honestly think I've got a bigger boost of confidence doing what I did than if I had of gone with faster pacers. Could I still have practiced all the things I did even if I had of gone with a faster pace group? Maybe, maybe not but I'm glad I got to do it while running at Marathon Pace.

I really felt very strong and was delighted I had plenty left to push on the pace in the last 5 miles and still felt good at the finish. I enjoyed every minute of the run and even that final hill(upper Glen road?) didn't beat me as it has done on many a previous run.Now roll on DCM 18. I'll give it my best shot of going sub 4.

I know my approach to yesterday is different to others who feel you need to set a good Half Marathon time to use as a predictor for the full but honestly yesterday has given me such a boost in confidence that I feel I did the right thing for me.

bucketybuck

ewc78 wrote: »

Also practiced putting a high 5 zero tab into a bottle while running as I plan on doing that in the Marathon.

Was it a full zero tab into the small bottles on the course? What was that like, does it taste like a strong concentration?

ewc78

bucketybuck wrote: »

Was it a full zero tab into the small bottles on the course? What was that like, does it taste like a strong concentration?

No I had them broken in half before the race and wrapped them in cling film so only used one half. A full one in those small bottles would be very strong alright. Was good to practice it even if I probably didn't even need one but at least I won't be trying it for the first time during the Marathon.

bucketybuck

ewc78 wrote: »

No I had them broken in half before the race and wrapped them in cling film so only used one half. A full one in those small bottles would be very strong alright. Was good to practice it even if I probably didn't even need one but at least I won't be trying it for the first time during the Marathon.

I have been practising with tailwind and gels etc but I actually hadn't given much thought to zero tabs on the day, for the sake of a few tablets in a pocket I must give it a try!

PCX

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have been practising with tailwind and gels etc but I actually hadn't given much thought to zero tabs on the day, for the sake of a few tablets in a pocket I must give it a try!

I would have thought if you are using tailwind you won't need zero tablets as well. Tailwind has plenty of electrolytes.

bucketybuck

PCX wrote: »

I would have thought if you are using tailwind you won't need zero tablets as well. Tailwind has plenty of electrolytes.

I wouldn't need both, but I'm still deliberating about exactly how I'll be using tailwind on the day, and so it might do no harm to hide a few zero tablets in a pocket just in case.

Pink11

ewc78 wrote: »

I know my approach to yesterday is different to others who feel you need to set a good Half Marathon time to use as a predictor for the full but honestly yesterday has given me such a boost in confidence that I feel I did the right thing for me.

Well done. You were wise to take that approach. Getting a confidence boost at this stage is important. I was terrified I'd come away from the half seriously worried and fooling myself for this sub 4.

I went with the intention of doing the same. I haven't been feeling 100% so decided on the morning I was 'definitely' taking it easy. :rolleyes:

The buzz of the day sucked me right in and I tore off like a rocket. Got a PB 10 mile time (!!). Could not believe it. My injury had ruined my running confidence over the last 2 years.

I quickly copped onto myself and realised what I was doing here was very risky so close to the marathon and pulled back for the last 3.1. I was chuffed with the 10 mile PB and that gave me enough of the boost I so desperately needed. I thought I was going to still come in at a 1.48/49 (1.49 is my PB) so I hung right back thinking I was great because I really wanted to power on .... I miscalculated and come over the line just a few seconds over 1.50. Gah!

Like you, I felt comfortable the whole time and could have kept running.

I can work on my half times after DCM.

I hope everyone else enjoyed yesterday and got what you were looking for.

ewc78

Pink11 wrote: »

Like you, I felt comfortable the whole time and could have kept running.

I can work on my half times after DCM.

I hope everyone else enjoyed yesterday and got what you were looking for.

That's my thinking also, I can work on Half times after the Marathon.
As it was ,because I haven't done a Half Marathon race for a few years, that was actually a 5 min PB for me yesterday,so happy with that even if I wasn't going for any particular time.

Griff75

Yevon wrote: »

I started yesterday with the aim of 1.50. Got a bit confused with the position of the pacers at the start and ended up a long way behind the 1.50 pacers. I rather stick to them and not go past them, it just works for me mentally. If they're well ahead of me I always fear I'm losing them.

Anyway I spent the first few kilometers reigning them in, I knew it was risky but I was more afraid of not having them in sight and letting my pace go to ****. So I had a few sub 5 minute kilometers at the start. Once I got up with the 1.50 group I enjoyed the pace. Lost some time down that tiny road behind Farmleigh but I was still feeling great at 11k and knew unless I had a serious problem I'd get in under the time.

I hit a rough patch about 15k or so, my lower back and hips were tightening up, it's an ongoing problem. Think it's a muscle imbalance but it usually hits hard for about 10 minutes and then relieves itself. I rode it out and managed not to let the pace drop and as I hit 18k I was moving well again. Passed out the pacers at this point and pushed across the line for a 1.47. I was spent but there was probably enough in the tank that I could have shaved off another few minutes if I had been braver earlier on.

As it is, that's an 8 minute PB and I'm delighted. Need to work hard on the strength work to try sort the muscle imbalance between now and the big day but feeling confident that I can push for a sub 4 on the day.

Pretty much an identical experience for me. Got confused at the start and ended up starting a good bit behind the 1.50 pacers. Caught them and passed them at km 19 and finished in 1.47 as well. Like you I feel I could have gone faster by pushing earlier but nice experience to finish with something left in the tank too!

Dev1234

I've avoided reading this thread for the last couple of weeks as I've been burned by trying to chase breaking 4 hours in the past. Im just home from charleville having ducked under 1.45 for the first time hence why I'm posting.

Marathon training has gone well. I've followed Jack Daniels Plan A with 50 miles as my peak weekly mileage and I've enjoyed every bit of it.

I was planning on going out with the 4.20 pacers on the day and just enjoying it high fiving kids but today got me thinking.

I ran a 5 minute negative split - out in 55 home in 50 with my 13th mile being my quickest (7.24 min/mile) and averaged 6.26 min/mile to finish up passing the 1.45 pacers on the last turn in to the finish.

The more I type the more I'm thinking that I've put in the effort for the last couple of months and i would be doing myself a disservice if i didn't try break 4 this go around.

One thing at the back of my mind is that I remember reading a couple of years ago that the 1.45 - 1.50 half time as an indicator of breaking 4 hours was only appropriate if you were at that pace at the start of a marathon training cycle, not a coupe of weeks out.

Have I got that wrong?

Lazare

Dev1234 wrote: »

I've avoided reading this thread for the last couple of weeks as I've been burned by trying to chase breaking 4 hours in the past. Im just home from charleville having ducked under 1.45 for the first time hence why I'm posting.

Marathon training has gone well. I've followed Jack Daniels Plan A with 50 miles as my peak weekly mileage and I've enjoyed every bit of it.

I was planning on going out with the 4.20 pacers on the day and just enjoying it high fiving kids but today got me thinking.

I ran a 5 minute negative split - out in 55 home in 50 with my 13th mile being my quickest (7.24 min/mile) and averaged 6.26 min/mile to finish up passing the 1.45 pacers on the last turn in to the finish.

The more I type the more I'm thinking that I've put in the effort for the last couple of months and i would be doing myself a disservice if i didn't try break 4 this go around.

One thing at the back of my mind is that I remember reading a couple of years ago that the 1.45 - 1.50 half time as an indicator of breaking 4 hours was only appropriate if you were at that pace at the start of a marathon training cycle, not a coupe of weeks out.

Have I got that wrong?

I'm assuming you're talking about DCM.

You're over a minute quicker than me from this time last year. I ran 1:46:14 then and went on to sub 4. Go for it.

Was nowhere near that pace at the start of the plan.

Dev1234

Thanks Yevon. I knew 4.20 would be conservative but having run 9 or 10 marathons at this point and walked at some stage in all of them bar last year my goal for this year was to run the whole thing quicker than last year, whatever time that might be.

My time last year was over 30 minutes slower than my pb but I was happier at the end than all my other marathons.

Thanks Lazare. Yep, running dublin. Im doing the 3/4 marathon near Enfield in 2 wks and the Daniels Plan calls for 2 miles easy, 15 miles at planned marathon pace finishing with 2 miles easy so I will go out at 9 min/ miles or so and see how I feel.

Thanks folks

tHE vAGGABOND

Stuck with my change mind of last week and turned day into a 20-mile run [ish!] - ran a slow 4 miles to the start [where slow for me is LSR kinda pace, 10 min to 10.30 min miles]. After the race, got back & changed the top and ran a very slow trundle home [11 min miles] - to make it 20 miles for the day.

During the half, itself followed MartaStew and the 2-hour gang. I was super comfortable for the first 7 miles, really had to hold back [body and legs wanted to run on and see what happened!!]. My legs were a bit sore for the rest and had to dig a bit deep for a few miles. I pushed on for a bit for last 2 or 3 miles. The sore legs clearly due to fact that I have not been doing huge miles, and done very few really hard speed sessions and very few marathon pace miles...

I guess I could have done around 1.55 or so if I went for it, but really don't think I could have stuck with 1.50 folk. I am thinking since I am running for fun & physical/mental health -I will see if the 4.10 or 4.20 group looks more fun at Amsterdam and go with them

Murph_D

Knocking out 13 miles at MP at this stage is a good indicator that you can hold for the duration of the marathon, especially considering how you felt over the first 7 miles. You’ve every right to go for sub-4 in Amsterdam (especially as this is the sub-4 support thread).

Amsterdam is flat too, unlike the Dublin HM.

Pink11

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have been practising with tailwind and gels etc but I actually hadn't given much thought to zero tabs on the day, for the sake of a few tablets in a pocket I must give it a try!

I've figured out how to use tailwind the whole way through. Had some on me for the half and I also did it for the 3/4 in Kilkenny last week. Worked really well.

Key is this bottle - I have two of them:

https://www.tailwindnutrition.co.uk/TWFLSK.html

One with pre mixed tailwind & water in hand.

Second bottle completely flattened with tailwind powder in it. Fits in my flipbelt. Once bottle 1 was gone, I folded it up into the belt.

I was then able to quickly grab the second bottle (with just the powder in it) and fill with water without slowing down too much at the water station. Was very quick.

I also had a stick of tailwind in the belt should I need it. I didn't need a 3rd portion for the 3/4 but guessing I will for the marathon. Because the bottle opening on those are quite wide, it's easy to pour the sticks of powder in (I practiced this on a training run and will do it a few more times for DCM).

coogy

Pink11 wrote: »

I've figured out how to use tailwind the whole way through. Had some on me for the half and I also did it for the 3/4 in Kilkenny last week. Worked really well.

Key is this bottle - I have two of them:

https://www.tailwindnutrition.co.uk/TWFLSK.html

One with pre mixed tailwind & water in hand.

Second bottle completely flattened with tailwind powder in it. Fits in my flipbelt. Once bottle 1 was gone, I folded it up into the belt.

I was then able to quickly grab the second bottle (with just the powder in it) and fill with water without slowing down too much at the water station. Was very quick.

I also had a stick of tailwind in the belt should I need it. I didn't need a 3rd portion for the 3/4 but guessing I will for the marathon. Because the bottle opening on those are quite wide, it's easy to pour the sticks of powder in (I practiced this on a training run and will do it a few more times for DCM).

What's the recommended intake? I used in on Saturday for my 18 mile lsr. Mixed one sachet with 600ml of water before I left the house and filled a 250 ml water bottle (drank the rest before I left the house) to take with me on the run. Took small sips throughout the run (2:45-ish).
Not sure if that's the way to do it but I'm kind of new to this. Plan on doing some reading up on the recommended intake later on.

Pink11

coogy wrote: »

What's the recommended intake? I used in on Saturday for my 18 mile lsr. Mixed one sachet with 600ml of water before I left the house and filled a 250 ml water bottle (drank the rest before I left the house) to take with me on the run. Took small sips throughout the run (2:45-ish).
Not sure if that's the way to do it but I'm kind of new to this. Plan on doing some reading up on the recommended intake later on.

I take 1 scoop in 500ml flask per hour of running. I'm 5ft 1 female. But you can take 2-3 scoops, it says it on the back of the serving bag. I'm guessing you have the sticks/satchets? That = 2 scoops.

I read you should start sipping it around 2 miles in, I could be wrong but I think I remember reading somewhere that there isn't much value having it BEFORE the run. I'll try and find that piece of info again.

This is from the website:

What’s important to understand is that even though you may be burning 500+ calories/hour, your body physiologically can only process 200-300 calories per hour. So, in general, we recommend starting off with 200-300 calories/24oz of water/hour for 2+ hour workouts, and 100-200 calories/24oz of water/hour for activities less than 2 hours. Listen to your body. If you are feeling hungry dial up the amount of calories, if feeling overly satiated/full, dial it back. The right amount may also vary based on the conditions (think temperature and humidity) and length and your intensity (how long, how hard, how far). When it’s hotter than your usual training temperature, keep the same calorie rate per hour, but increase water to thirst.

smashiner

Hi all,
I am ticking along nicely (I think) with the DCM training and did my first 20 miler on Sunday (5:57 per KM)and felt the best that I have ever felt after doing a 20 miler (includes DCM 14&15 training). RayCun's extra homework homework a few weeks ago is paying off I think

I plan to do another two 20 milers next weekend and then on the 07th and then it's into taper mode, so I think that I should be in good shape endurance wise anyway for having a 'bash' at sub 4, although I am not certain that I will last at the Sub 4 pace for the last 6 miles of the full DCM, fingers crossed.

I was wondering what other people are doing on their midweek runs, I am doing a few 10K's (6:00 per km slowish) but I have also started to lengthen my faster run up to a HM in the middle of the week at 5:40 per KM (race pace) with a plan to hitting somewhere around a 1:50-1:52 HM in the next few weeks in training (HM PB is 1:49:30 last year).

Is anyone else doing this, or should I be doing something else in order to inject a bit of pace into the auld legs, as I feel that I need to have a few faster HM training runs under the belt before the big day?
Also should I leave the 20 mile LSR's at the same pace to avoid injury, or should I try to shave a few minutes off them too, my gut (and ankles) are telling me stay at that pace?

Any advice would be helpful.