EU261 compensation discussion

cython

JCX BXC wrote: »

I'm getting very confused by what you're saying, however what I do know is that the Friday flight from Amsterdam to Cork was cancelled due to Storm Hannah, hence no compensation is owed.

It sounds like the poster was never involved with the Friday flight though, rather they were supposed to fly on Sat AM all along, but they were bumped from the Saturday flight in favour of pax who were impacted by the Friday cancellation?

paddy19

Assuming this was an EU carrier and the reservation is on one ticket.
If you had a valid reservation and were available to board then this is a denial of boarding plain and simple.
The airline should have asked for volunteers per the regulation so they are not in a great position to argue.

In my view you are entitled to €600 based on the overall distance of the trip is greater than 3,500km and the delay was greater than 3 hours. The airline seems to be using the distance from Ams to Cork to calculate the compensation.

This is not correct based on the the regulation definition of final destination in Article 2. H "In the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight".

Let us know how you get on.

The applicable case which looks close to the posters is at:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:62011CJ0321&from=GA

JCX BXC

cython wrote: »

It sounds like the poster was never involved with the Friday flight though, rather they were supposed to fly on Sat AM all along, but they were bumped from the Saturday flight in favour of pax who were impacted by the Friday cancellation?

Ah okay, I'm not going to re-read the OP as it's far too hard on a Sunday evening, but I will say in that case yes, you should be entitled to compensation.

goingnowhere

Poster had a overnight flight and had confirmed reservation on the flight on Saturday and even a boarding card

Airline or ground agent did a bit of over booking to clear stranded passengers from Friday

Confirmed reservation => Denial of boarding => Full EC261 applies as both KLM and EI are EU airlines

Harika

Adding my question here.
We booked a package holiday with a local travel agency to Mallorca. We arrived for the return flight at the airport, checked in and waited six hours until TUI told us that the plane needs more repair and we will be brought to a hotel and fly back Sunday morning. We were handed out leaflets with the EU regulations and returned Sunday morning, 24 hours delayed.
Are we entitled to cash compensation?
Whom would we contact first? The travel agency, TUI or the airline operator?

FKYouPayMe

Was delayed coming home from Pisa to Dublin yesterday. In the airport were just told operational reasons, ended up being a near 6 hour delay before we took off. Had no contact from Ryanair in airport got a mail apologizing for delay and explaining rights hours after I got home.
Some of the cabin crew said they had been brought over from Manchester and had got the call 3 hours before our flight had even been due to depart (think the plane also had to be flown over)
Put in my claim yest and just got a reply saying delay was caused due to safety reasons in PISA and so I am not due compensation per EU 261
I’ve asked for proof that this was due to safety reasons as judging from previous posts on this issue their first play is always to try and fob you off
What’s next play here?

Credit Checker Moose

You can either give it to the ambulance chasers who will take a cut or go yourself to the small claims court.

paddy19

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

You can either give it to the ambulance chasers who will take a cut or go yourself to the small claims court.

I found small claims court excellent. It's €25 and all online. The airlines don't like it because if they contest it, they would have to use a solicitor and you don't.

Make sure you get the exact company name and address right.

billy few mates

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

You can either give it to the ambulance chasers who will take a cut or go yourself to the small claims court.

You should probably also go to the Commission for Aviation Regulations (CAR), they're the enforcement body for consumer rights in these matters...
https://www.aviationreg.ie/Air_Passenger_Rights/Default.83.html

If you don't get anywhere with that you could always then go to the small claims court. As the poster above said, large organisations hate having to deal with the SCC because it usually costs them more to have to deal with the case than it would to pay out and if they don't show up in court you'll get judgment by default...

I currently have an outstanding EU261claim being handled by AirHelp (I know, I know they're going to take 25% commission before anyone chips in!).
I originally downloaded the claim form and filled it in myself (it's very simple), I then spent a bit of time Googling to find the address of the airline to send it, the more I Googled the more I read about this particular airline and their unwillingness to reply or deal with these cases etc, I just thought I don't really have time for this at the moment for numerous reasons so decided to outsource it.
On the day my flight was cancelled the airline were fobbing off passengers with long winded alternative routings, they didn't have any signs up about EU261 and weren't able to provide me with a copy (you can download it off the internet they told me!) until I pointed out to them the bit on their own website where they were required to display the information and provide me with a copy, which they then did.
I ended up with an eight hour delay when I pointed out an alternative routing that was closer to my original schedule with a direct flight, some of the others I spoke to on my flight got a twelve hour delay with two and three connections.

The AirHelp application took five minutes through the app, they've already been in touch with me with an update, I'll let you know how it goes...

FKYouPayMe

What are the airlines legitimately allowed not to pay out on.
Have 2 mails from people in group.
In one the day due to safety reasons in Pisa .As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Other mail says delay due to unexpected technical fault at Pisa with the aircraft due to operate your flight.as this delay was unexpected no compensation due...

Would have thought that if issue was with their own plane they are on the hook?

grogi

FKYouPayMe wrote: »

What are the airlines legitimately allowed not to pay out on.
Have 2 mails from people in group.
In one the day due to safety reasons in Pisa .As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Other mail says delay due to unexpected technical fault at Pisa with the aircraft due to operate your flight.as this delay was unexpected no compensation due...

Would have thought that if issue was with their own plane they are on the hook?

I guess no airline operates with 'expected' delays - all of them will rather be unexpected, won't they? But some are directly caused by the airline - its crew, hardware or operational models - and the compensation should be paid in those conditions.


Security issue at the airport - no pay.
ATC or other outside of airline stuff strike - no pay.
Weather at the departure or destination airport preventing the ATC to give go ahead - no pay

Technical issue with the plane - pay.
Airline or airline contractor staff strike - pay.
Weather event (at unrelated airport or even earlier at the departure airport) causing plane you're travelling to arrive late - pay.

Northern lassie

FKYouPayMe wrote: »

What are the airlines legitimately allowed not to pay out on.
Have 2 mails from people in group.
In one the day due to safety reasons in Pisa .As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Other mail says delay due to unexpected technical fault at Pisa with the aircraft due to operate your flight.as this delay was unexpected no compensation due...

Would have thought that if issue was with their own plane they are on the hook?

I had a delay on a Ryanair Flight from Pisa too. Mine was on Tuesday 25th June (was that the same date as yours?) and this was the reply I received:

We regret the delay of your flight FR9907 from Pisa to Dublin on the 2019-06-25, which was caused due to an unexpected fault resulting from a damage caused by foreign object, with the aircraft due to operate your flight.

As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Following a review of your receipted expenses, our accounts department will forward you a bank transfer to the value of 25 EUR, in full and final settlement of your claim.

Please allow 10 working days to receive this payment.

We hope the above clarifies the matter.

So they're saying damage by a foreign object... does any knowledgeable person think I can contest it and get compensation??

FKYouPayMe

Northern lassie wrote: »

I had a delay on a Ryanair Flight from Pisa too. Mine was on Tuesday 25th June (was that the same date as yours?) and this was the reply I received:

We regret the delay of your flight FR9907 from Pisa to Dublin on the 2019-06-25, which was caused due to an unexpected fault resulting from a damage caused by foreign object, with the aircraft due to operate your flight.

As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Following a review of your receipted expenses, our accounts department will forward you a bank transfer to the value of 25 EUR, in full and final settlement of your claim.

Please allow 10 working days to receive this payment.

We hope the above clarifies the matter.

So they're saying damage by a foreign object... does any knowledgeable person think I can contest it and get compensation??

Yep same flight, that’s safety reasons , technical fault with airplane and damage from foreign object leading to technical fault they have given in the mails I’ve heard about now, if it was foreign object due to their own crew they should have to pay I would think?
Flight was due to depart at 7.30 am and we were informed of cancellation at around 7am. Cabin crew and plane had to fly over and were contacted by Ryanair at around 3am so they knew this was being cancelled we’ll in advance

grogi

Northern lassie wrote: »

I had a delay on a Ryanair Flight from Pisa too. Mine was on Tuesday 25th June (was that the same date as yours?) and this was the reply I received:

We regret the delay of your flight FR9907 from Pisa to Dublin on the 2019-06-25, which was caused due to an unexpected fault resulting from a damage caused by foreign object, with the aircraft due to operate your flight.

As this delay was unexpected, no compensation is due under EU261/2004 as this was caused due to circumstances beyond Ryanair's control.

Following a review of your receipted expenses, our accounts department will forward you a bank transfer to the value of 25 EUR, in full and final settlement of your claim.

Please allow 10 working days to receive this payment.

We hope the above clarifies the matter.

So they're saying damage by a foreign object... does any knowledgeable person think I can contest it and get compensation??

If they are already paying €25, they know they have nothing to stand on and try to settle cheap.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airlines-compensation-bird-strikes-delay-european-court-of-justice-400-a7716846.html

Recent court decisions have extended the range of issues for which airlines must pay out. The “extraordinary circumstances” defence now excludes incidents in which a plane is damaged by ground equipment. or a flight returns to the airport of departure – as a British Airways jet did last week after a pressurisation issue on a Heathrow-Delhi flight.

Northern lassie

Thanks guys. Appreciate your replies.

Any suggestions what to do next? Reply to Ryanair and say I disagree that it was circumstances beyond their control?? Or just go directly to CAR?

FYyoupayme - how to you know this? Is there anywhere I can find out the exact reason for delay?

Flight was due to depart at 7.30 am and we were informed of cancellation at around 7am. Cabin crew and plane had to fly over and were contacted by Ryanair at around 3am so they knew this was being cancelled we’ll in advance

Credit Checker Moose

Replying to Ryanair will do nothing. They will just dig in and restate their position.

You need to ask the Italian authorities for the actual reason for delay.

Once you have the actual reason, you can then decide what to do.

billy few mates

Northern lassie wrote: »

Thanks guys. Appreciate your replies.

Any suggestions what to do next? Reply to Ryanair and say I disagree that it was circumstances beyond their control?? Or just go directly to CAR?

FYyoupayme - how to you know this? Is there anywhere I can find out the exact reason for delay?

Flight was due to depart at 7.30 am and we were informed of cancellation at around 7am. Cabin crew and plane had to fly over and were contacted by Ryanair at around 3am so they knew this was being cancelled we’ll in advance

Return the cheque, tell them you don't accept their decision.
Write to the CAR and tell them you feel you're being fobbed off and let them look into it for you.
Or apply again via one of the "ambulance chasers", they'll take their 25% but they'll pursue it to the end as they'll be wanting their commission.

If all else fails you can still try the SCC, request a copy of the technical log so you can see for yourself what the original problem was and how it was dealt with. While some FOD incidents might be unavoidable they don't all automatically incur a delay so while the incident might be unavoidable the delay might not necessarily have been.
You've got nothing to lose by trying.

Northern lassie

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Replying to Ryanair will do nothing.
You need to ask the Italian authorities for the actual reason for delay.

Once you have the actual reason, you can then decide what to do.

Ok thanks again ... can anyone tell me where I will find the Italian airline authorities that can give me the log of the flight?

billy few mates

Northern lassie wrote: »

Ok thanks again ... can anyone tell me where I will find the Italian airline authorities that can give me the log of the flight?

This has always been the problem, you shouldn't have to go running around trying to track down unknown agencies to prove your case, you should be able to make your claim directly to the CAR who would then claim it from the airline on your behalf or provide proof to them why they shouldn't have to pay.
Under the current arrangement an operator has nothing to lose by refusing your claim and hoping you'll go away because you won't know how to take it any further or decide it's not worth the effort ...

Dododo

Northern lassie wrote: »

Ok thanks again ... can anyone tell me where I will find the Italian airline authorities that can give me the log of the flight?

Www.eu.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/2004_261_national_enforcement_bodies.pdf

paddy19

You could ask the the European Consumer Centre in Dublin to help you get the information.
https://www.eccireland.ie

I'd go straight to the small claims court. Airlines are reluctant to lie to courts. Its €25 well spent and all online and you don't have to attend.

Let us know how you get on.

Northern lassie

God but Ryanair are feckers! When I submitted my claim on line I included €25 receipt for the lounge when I was delayed. They replied by email on Friday 28th June saying I wouldn't be compensated but they would pay the €25 which would be full and final settlement of my claim. Just noticed it this morning so immediately replied saying I was not happy to accept it in full and final payment and wished to return it to them. And they basically replied saying too late it has already been issued!

Anyway I have sent off a few emails this morning to see if I can find out the exact cause of the delay.

Thanks for help.

Dododo

Northern lassie wrote: »

God but Ryanair are feckers! When I submitted my claim on line I included €25 receipt for the lounge when I was delayed. They replied by email on Friday 28th June saying I wouldn't be compensated but they would pay the €25 which would be full and final settlement of my claim. Just noticed it this morning so immediately replied saying I was not happy to accept it in full and final payment and wished to return it to them. And they basically replied saying too late it has already been issued!

Anyway I have sent off a few emails this morning to see if I can find out the exact cause of the delay.

Thanks for help.

Have you lodged complaint with Italian aviation Enac?
On the flight home didn’t pilot say delay was caused by staffing issues?

billy few mates

Northern lassie wrote: »

they would pay the €25 which would be full and final settlement of my claim. Just noticed it this morning so immediately replied saying I was not happy to accept it in full and final payment and wished to return it to them. And they basically replied saying too late it has already been issued....

They can't unilaterally decide the outcome of a dispute like this and think by issuing a cheque (for an amount of their deciding) the matter is closed...!
Send it straight back, you don't have to accept this...

ednwireland

Northern lassie wrote: »

God but Ryanair are feckers! When I submitted my claim on line I included €25 receipt for the lounge when I was delayed. They replied by email on Friday 28th June saying I wouldn't be compensated but they would pay the €25 which would be full and final settlement of my claim. Just noticed it this morning so immediately replied saying I was not happy to accept it in full and final payment and wished to return it to them. And they basically replied saying too late it has already been issued!

Anyway I have sent off a few emails this morning to see if I can find out the exact cause of the delay.

Thanks for help.

we got EU 261 compensation and didn't get hotel or food costs. other half kept chasing and we got the hotel and food (flight was 27 hours late eventually ) but they had accepted the eu261 so maybe ths a difference.

Northern lassie

Dododo wrote: »

Have you lodged complaint with Italian aviation Enac?
On the flight home didn’t pilot say delay was caused by staffing issues?

No I haven't contacted Enac ... first time I heard of them! So is lodging a complaint with Enac another option .... so I could decide to go down the road of Enac, CAR or Small Claims Court? is that right? Just trying to get it sorted in my head.

Didn't hear the comment re staffing issues but he/she may have said that.

They can't unilaterally decide the outcome of a dispute like this and think by issuing a cheque (for an amount of their deciding) the matter is closed...!
Send it straight back, you don't have to accept this...

I gave them my bank details so no cheque involved .... but they are a law unto themselves seemingly!!

Dododo

Northern lassie wrote: »

No I haven't contacted Enac ... first time I heard of them! So is lodging a complaint with Enac another option .... so I could decide to go down the road of Enac, CAR or Small Claims Court? is that right? Just trying to get it sorted in my head.

Didn't hear the comment re staffing issues but he/she may have said that.

They can't unilaterally decide the outcome of a dispute like this and think by issuing a cheque (for an amount of their deciding) the matter is closed...!
Send it straight back, you don't have to accept this...

I gave them my bank details so no cheque involved .... but they are a law unto themselves seemingly!!

ENAC will give you the reason why the flight was delayed. When you get that then you have choices of where to go. It will also strengthen your hand in small claims court if it gets that far. ENAC have a pretty easy form that you fill out.

notuslimited

Can you use the small claims court for an EI flight originating from FRA? My flight on 24 June was cancelled and it would appear that early morning fog in Dublin had knock on effects during the day.

Credit Checker Moose

Yes as EI are based in Dublin.

zell12

Bos-Snn EI flight departed late, landed over 3h late, arrived 3h36m later than scheduled arrival at Snn gate.
Reason given was the plane was in another city and had to be sent to Bos. Over 4500km

What level of compensation expected? and will it be straightforward to claim EU261?