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EU261 compensation discussion

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  • 10-04-2018 2:28pm
    #1
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭


    I made a claim to them for compensation for a cancelled flight from Stansted to Shannon on 30 March. They say they don't have to pay it because the cancelation wasn't their fault as it was due to a fire at the Airport.
    Anyone know if this is the case with these compensation claims?
    They did refund the cost of the flight alright. But I had to spend a good bit on another flight the next day with Aer Lingus from Heathrow, as all Ryanair flights were full.


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    #2
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    compensation doesn't arise as
    the cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances that could not have been avoided by any reasonable measure.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Compensation_Regulation_261/2004


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    #3
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    finbarrk wrote: »
    I made a claim to them for compensation for a cancelled flight from Stansted to Shannon on 30 March. They say they don't have to pay it because the cancelation wasn't their fault as it was due to a fire at the Airport.
    Anyone know if this is the case with these compensation claims?
    They did refund the cost of the flight alright. But I had to spend a good bit on another flight the next day with Aer Lingus from Heathrow, as all Ryanair flights were full.
    getting alternative travel reimbursed (and hotels, and any ground travel, and possibly a little for meals) for actual expenses incurred is different from "compensation"

    "Compensation" has nothing to do with whatever knock-on costs you incurred, its an extra flat rate payment beyond those costs to compensate you for the inconvenience (and a deterrent to airlines to be cancelling flights willy nilly)

    if Ryanair offered you an equivalent flight departing within a "reasonable" time, and you declined this offer, then they could be within their rights to not pay you.


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    #4
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Whilst you have no case for compensation here (just a refund, a phonecall and food), the best of luck getting anything out of Ryanair.

    My snow claim for cancelled flights was rejected outright. They did refund me but refused anything for phonecall and food. No EU261 either.


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    #5
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    moloner4 wrote: »
    I've a complaint similar about Ryanair and Eu261 rights after a 7 hour delay, which they refused to pay out.

    Made a complaint about it a couple months ago and still waiting to hear back. I'll leave details below if you want to make an external complaint but not a legal one.

    Air Passenger Rights Team
    Commission for Aviation Regulation
    Alexandra House, Earlsfort Terrace, Dublin 2, D02 W773
    T: +3531-6611700
    www.aviationreg.ie www.flightrights.ie

    What caused the delay? Had a 5 hour delay only a few days ago, put an EU261 claim in on the day after the flight, and had a positive response within 3 days, though the money's not actually in the bank yet.

    From reading the rules in close detail, and they are seriously complex, there would seem to be quite a few reasons for delays that disbar compensation from the airline, so fog or snow or ATC restrictions will result in no compensation, a broken aircraft is a different and liable situation.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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    #6
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    FR pay out faster (10 day) now because they set up a team to process them.


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    #7
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Ok, thanks for the explanations. I'm going to try and get a few €'s off my travel Insurance instead now instead. Whether that will work or not.


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    #8
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    Travel Insurance won't pay for the replacement flights either. They emailed me yesterday saying all I am entitled to is €50 each compensation for a delay that was over 12 hours. So much for having Travel Insurance, I thought it was for situations like this.


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    #9
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    finbarrk wrote: »
    Travel Insurance won't pay for the replacement flights either. They emailed me yesterday saying all I am entitled to is €50 each compensation for a delay that was over 12 hours. So much for having Travel Insurance, I thought it was for situations like this.
    but did they or Ryanair pay you for your out of pocket expenses.

    For most people thats what insurance is there for.


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    #10
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Whilst you have no case for compensation here (just a refund, a phonecall and food), the best of luck getting anything out of Ryanair.

    My snow claim for cancelled flights was rejected outright. They did refund me but refused anything for phonecall and food. No EU261 either.

    In short, EU261 apply when it's airline fault. Main reasons would be:
    - there was a problem with the aircraft
    - there was a problem with Ryanair staff - strike, someone called in sick last second etc.

    All other reasons - exp. airport closure due to weather, strike at ATC or the airport (of non-Ryanair personel and their contractors, such as luggage handling) etc. - don't entitle one to make EU261 claim.


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    #11
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #12
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    but did they or Ryanair pay you for your out of pocket expenses.

    For most people thats what insurance is there for.

    No. No compensation for the replacement flights I had to purchase, or nothing for the Hotel for the night, and I have receipts for both. Travel Insurance say Ryanair should compensate me, and Ryanair say they should not, because it wasn't their fault that there was a fire in Stansted that evening, and the airport closed down.
    I have emailed travel insurance customer service asking what's the point in having it.


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    #13
    EntryDenied12
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭EntryDenied12


    Paying for travel insurance is a waste of money if you’re delayed for less than 12 hours and if that circumstance is outside the airlines control


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    #14
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    For food and phonecalls in my case, yes. But you try getting that out of Ryanair. They say no and the fact that it was weather related means you are entitled to a flight refund ONLY. Its just not worth fighting it for the amount of money involved.

    I'm about €150 out of pocket after the Stansted weather cancellations in December. Ryanair won't pay anything (fair enough) but neither will my travel insurance as the back and forth means it happened a lot longer than 90 days ago, and they won't entertain any claim after that period regardless of whether I was covered at that time or not.


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    #15
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #16
    adam88
    Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭adam88


    Can you not go to the regulator. I heard her on the radio and reading between the lines I got the impression tat they love putting it up to them (Ryanair)


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    #17
    finbarrk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,411 ✭✭✭finbarrk


    I might try the regulator so, thanks.


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    #18
    ahbell
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭ahbell


    finbarrk wrote: »
    I might try the regulator so, thanks.

    In previous cases I have found the UK regulator a lot more efficient than the Irish regulator. You can use their website here https://www.aviationadr.org.uk


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    #19
    lc180
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭lc180


    My flight from Birmingham last night was delayed by 4 hours and 12 minutes. Ryanair are saying it was caused by the lightning strike in Stansted yesterday morning. I'm guessing this will mean no compensation as it's weather related. What does everyone think?

    I got an email from them with a pdf confirmation of the delay for use in a claim with travel insurance.
    We sincerely apologise for the delay of your flight FR667, from Birmingham to Dublin on the 27-05-2018.
    Be assured that we have made all reasonable efforts to prevent and reduce the flight delay, and understand the inconvenience it may have caused.
    If you have travel insurance and would like to make a claim with your insurance company, we have attached a PDF document as proof of delay.
    For more information on delays visit our Frequently Asked Questions
    We again apologise for the delay of your flight.
    Sincerely
    Ryanair Customer Services.


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    #20
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    lc180 wrote: »
    My flight from Birmingham last night was delayed by 4 hours and 12 minutes. Ryanair are saying it was caused by the lightning strike in Stansted yesterday morning. I'm guessing this will mean no compensation as it's weather related. What does everyone think?

    I got an email from them with a pdf confirmation of the delay for use in a claim with travel insurance.

    Was your flight delayed directly because of the storm (and all other departing flights at the same time were delayed), or the delay was simply caused by the delay on a previous flights of said plane?

    If the first, no compensation is due. If the second - fight for it, they should pay.


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    #21
    lc180
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭lc180


    grogi wrote: »
    Was your flight delayed directly because of the storm (and all other departing flights at the same time were delayed), or the delay was simply caused by the delay on a previous flights of said plane?

    If the first, no compensation is due. If the second - fight for it, they should pay.

    It seems like it was a delay caused by a knock on effect. From what we were told, prior to our flight (Birmingham - Dublin) the aircraft was being used for the Standsted - Dublin flight, this flight was delayed because of the lightning strike, which in turn caused the Dublin to Birmingham flight to be delayed substantially and then my flight.


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    #22
    JCX BXC
    Registered Users Posts: 18,109 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    lc180 wrote: »
    It seems like it was a delay caused by a knock on effect. From what we were told, prior to our flight (Birmingham - Dublin) the aircraft was being used for the Standsted - Dublin flight, this flight was delayed because of the lightning strike, which in turn caused the Dublin to Birmingham flight to be delayed substantially and then my flight.

    That's not extraordinary circumstances then from my understanding, chase it.


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    #23
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #24
    lc180
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭lc180


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    The knock on effect is covered by EU261. They tried this with me before. I persisted and the paid out.

    Good to hear. Out of interest how much did you get? Refund of your flight or much more?


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    #25
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #26
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    They'll claim it was Extraordinary due to weather. Fight it.


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    #27
    lc180
    Registered Users Posts: 2,000 ✭✭✭lc180


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    They'll claim it was Extraordinary due to weather. Fight it.

    I submitted my compensation form so let's see what they say.

    If they do try to reject it how should I fight it? Is there an argument I can make which Ryanair can't really argue with?


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    #28
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #29
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    The knock on effect is covered by EU261. They tried this with me before. I persisted and the paid out.
    I thought so too. I have a similar situation. Inbound flight apparently struck by lightning (this contradicted what we were told by ground staff, so not sure it's even true) and the aircraft apparently had to be checked, making the outbound flight about six hours delayed. This should definitely be covered by EU261, shouldn't it? Even IF the lightning strike thing is true, this would be considered a knock-on effect? 
     I just don't get what the passenger is supposed to do here if the airline lies that a technical issue was a lightning strike, for example. Isn't the onus on the airline to prove it? Yet it seems they can just say 'no sorry, not paying' and get away with it.


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    #30
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    irishrebe wrote: »
     I just don't get what the passenger is supposed to do here if the airline lies that a technical issue was a lightning strike, for example. Isn't the onus on the airline to prove it? Yet it seems they can just say 'no sorry, not paying' and get away with it.

    q.1) contact airline via their online for
    a.1) 'We don't have your jacket. And it was storm BTW'

    q.2) Respond that "it wasn't caused by storm - yadayadayada - knock on delay - yadayadayada"
    a.2) 'We have storms, best storms!'

    q.3) reply that it wasn't storm - yadayadayada - knock on delay - yadayadayada - me not happy, legal actions

    Typically the airline will pass at a.2. But if a.3 is still a firm NO, the easiest way to proceed is to file the claim through solicitors that specialise with it. They will take their part, but you will not have to deal with the airline anymore... Simple google search will give you the answer...


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    #31
    irishrebe
    Registered Users Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    grogi wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
     I just don't get what the passenger is supposed to do here if the airline lies that a technical issue was a lightning strike, for example. Isn't the onus on the airline to prove it? Yet it seems they can just say 'no sorry, not paying' and get away with it.

    q.1) contact airline via their online for
    a.1) 'We don't have your jacket. And it was storm BTW'

    q.2) Respond that "it wasn't caused by storm - yadayadayada - knock on delay - yadayadayada"
    a.2) 'We have storms, best storms!'

    q.3) reply that it wasn't storm - yadayadayada - knock on delay - yadayadayada - me not happy, legal actions

    Typically the airline will pass at a.2. But if a.3 is still a firm NO, the easiest way to proceed is to file the claim through solicitors that specialise with it. They will take their part, but you will not have to deal with the airline anymore... Simple google search will give you the answer...
    Yeah, I know about those companies, but they take a fair whack as compensation if they win. Just seems ludicrous that the airlines are not obliged to provide proof to the customer that it was indeed a lightning strike, and that compensation is not applicable. The onus should be on them to prove it. This was Ryanair, and they just stopped answering me. Pretty unbelievable, but I guess that's their strategy because they know they haven't a leg to stand on. I guess I'll have to go through one of those companies - better something than nothing!


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