New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

CatInABox

tom1ie wrote: »

I know we need to get that tbm in the ground before anyone starts piping up about metro sw, but, will the transport strategy be used as a stick to beat the people calling for metro sw as it’s not in the plans?
That’s my concern.

I think there's a few things going in here tom1ie, and they're not related to wanting to "beat people down" or anything. Most here would support a SW Metro as soon as the Metrolink is finished, but people are a little defensive in here right now.

Some people are using the idea of the SW metro to campaign against the Metrolink (see the reports of Rethink Metrolink telling people that there's already a SW Metro plan, and that it'll cause no delay), and there's also a poster here who seems to be doing his level best to wreck all our heads with thousands of objections and misrepresentations.

Despite my best efforts, I've gotten annoyed. Sorry if that's come across.

marno21

tom1ie wrote: »

Agreed, but I suppose the whole thing that made me post on this thread again was the transport strategy that specifically mentioned the reasons a metro would not be built in the sw, which was the fact there was no developmental potential out that direction. I think this approach is fundamentally flawed as I believe pt should be provided to the areas most in need of it. I believe these areas are the sw, and the green line upgrade (due to the low cost of upgrade but high output).
I know we need to get that tbm in the ground before anyone starts piping up about metro sw, but, will the transport strategy be used as a stick to beat the people calling for metro sw as it’s not in the plans?
That’s my concern.

I quote the policy quite often, not as a stick to beat people with, but as a flash of reality.

The NTA are going to struggle to deliver the plan to 2035 which will include BusConnects in full, DART Expansion, DART Interconnector, Metrolink, Luas to Bray/Finglas/Poolbeg/Lucan. If they can't deliver what they actually want then there's no hope of them delivering stuff beyond this.

I have no issues and respect the need for a SW Metro, but the NTA have specified what they want in the next 20 years, which will cost in excess of €10bn, and if they think this is what Dublin needs above all else, it's what we need to get behind.

AlmightyCushion

tom1ie wrote: »

[/I][/B][/I]

Why is this a bad thing? If I’m going from rathfarnham to the airport, my current choice is car.
With a sw spur it would be metro via one change at ssg or wherever. Why is that a bad thing?

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. When I say 'this wouldn't happen' in the part you bolded I mean the splitting of capacity for the green line wouldn't happen. I think we need metros all over the city, I don't particularly care where the next one goes right now as long at its not somewhere stupid so I have no problem with a sw line, although I wouldn't terminate it in the city centre. I'd continue it on North somewhere just so that more areas of the city have metro nearby.

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

I think there's a few things going in here tom1ie, and they're not related to wanting to "beat people down" or anything. Most here would support a SW Metro as soon as the Metrolink is finished, but people are a little defensive in here right now.

Some people are using the idea of the SW metro to campaign against the Metrolink (see the reports of Rethink Metrolink telling people that there's already a SW Metro plan, and that it'll cause no delay), and there's also a poster here who seems to be doing his level best to wreck all our heads with thousands of objections and misrepresentations.

Despite my best efforts, I've gotten annoyed. Sorry if that's come across.

Sorry cat I didn’t mean posters in here were using the transport policy as a stick to beat people I just ment, in my view I think the transport policy is flawed in that it prioritizes rail in areas with high developmental areas as opposed to servicing areas where residents are already stuck in gridlock, and as I’ve stated I don’t think bc will alleviate this.
I certainly don’t agree with re think metro. In fact I’m on record on one of these threads questioning their “facts” and figures.
Also the certain too-ing and fro-ing with a certain poster can be quite entertaining at times, allbeit a little repetitive at this stage!
Sorry if I’ve come across as negative towards metrolink, I’d love the bloody thing to be built tomorrow if I’m honest!

tom1ie

marno21 wrote: »

I quote the policy quite often, not as a stick to beat people with, but as a flash of reality.

The NTA are going to struggle to deliver the plan to 2035 which will include BusConnects in full, DART Expansion, DART Interconnector, Metrolink, Luas to Bray/Finglas/Poolbeg/Lucan. If they can't deliver what they actually want then there's no hope of them delivering stuff beyond this.

I have no issues and respect the need for a SW Metro, but the NTA have specified what they want in the next 20 years, which will cost in excess of €10bn, and if they think this is what Dublin needs above all else, it's what we need to get behind.

Fair enough but my point of view is that the nta have left a big gaping hole in the sw that won’t be serviced by rail, and that area is gridlocked as it stands today.
As I’ve said I really don’t think bc will make any difference in this area.
Mods that’ll be the last time I mention bc in this forum I swear!

tom1ie

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. When I say 'this wouldn't happen' in the part you bolded I mean the splitting of capacity for the green line wouldn't happen. I think we need metros all over the city, I don't particularly care where the next one goes right now as long at its not somewhere stupid so I have no problem with a sw line, although I wouldn't terminate it in the city centre. I'd continue it on North somewhere just so that more areas of the city have metro nearby.

Gotcha. Yeah the splitting of capacity on the green line would make no sense, I just ment terminating it in the cc until funds are available to continue on to the ne.

antoinolachtnai

Well, in general, an improvement in one area will filter through to other areas because it will remove traffic from the streets.

There is nothing wrong with having lines divide with grade separated junctions. This works perfectly well in other cities (London, Frankfurt, many others). The capacity of a single tunnel is immense in comparison to the population of Dublin.

tom1ie

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, in general, an improvement in one area will filter through to other areas because it will remove traffic from the streets.

There is nothing wrong with having lines divide with grade separated junctions. This works perfectly well in other cities (London, Frankfurt, many others). The capacity of a single tunnel is immense in comparison to the population of Dublin.

I’m not gonna be happy until we get something like this network:
https://youtu.be/1pMX7EkAhoA

Qrt

In the event the BusConnects CRCs were to be constructed fully as planned, what would people's opinions be on some of these routes being replaced by Luas? It'd be a bit messy having the rails on the outside lanes, but surely it's a possibility?

D.L.R.

tom1ie wrote: »

Gotcha. Yeah the splitting of capacity on the green line would make no sense, I just ment terminating it in the cc until funds are available to continue on to the ne.

Dumping an entire line of passengers onto another line would create a huge bottleneck. Better to continue at least through the city. And what about the NE section? Do they deserve a metro less than Rathfarnham?

And so the argument goes on and on and on...

salmocab

Qrt wrote: »

In the event the BusConnects CRCs were to be constructed fully as planned, what would people's opinions be on some of these routes being replaced by Luas? It'd be a bit messy having the rails on the outside lanes, but surely it's a possibility?

I suppose the issues are that luas can’t take certain turns that busses can do some routes would never be runners. The point of BC is to get routes to mainline for central sections and branch in suburbs so luas wouldn’t really be able to do this effectively

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

It would have to do more than just dump its passengers onto the existing metro. That's not really good enough.

It would be better to cross the city and terminate at a useful node, say Drumcondra.

I agree to a certain extent. On the other hand the cc is a destination in itself and the fact you would be providing swords/ airport and sandyford along with the cc as destinations for sw commuters would be massive. Of course a further destination on the north east such as Drumcondra where metro2 would interconnect with heavy rail would be great, but that could be completed after a sw spur.

strassenwo!f

CatInABox wrote: »

I think there's a few things going in here tom1ie, and they're not related to wanting to "beat people down" or anything. Most here would support a SW Metro as soon as the Metrolink is finished, but people are a little defensive in here right now.

Some people are using the idea of the SW metro to campaign against the Metrolink (see the reports of Rethink Metrolink telling people that there's already a SW Metro plan, and that it'll cause no delay), and there's also a poster here who seems to be doing his level best to wreck all our heads with thousands of objections and misrepresentations.

Despite my best efforts, I've gotten annoyed. Sorry if that's come across.

I think I may be the poster you are talking about.

If I am, could you please point out any situation where I have misrepresented anything?

You are a poster who has spoken about some whole new area of south Dublin - not Cherrywood, but seemingly on a par with Cherrywood - which is to be developed and have the metro eventually extended to it.

Yet, despite my questions, you seem reluctant to tell the board anything about this place.

Kellyconor1982

We are failing in our commitments to the environment and this will be very costly in the future, both socially and financially for the country.

The Dublin region already needs several metro lines. Just think what the need will be by 2050 when the population will be even greater. The m50 is a car park. The luas is great but should be the icing on the cake in a city like dublin rather than the cake itself.

The Sw section is glaringly in need of a metro. It has populated areas like Knocklyon, Ballycullen and Rathfarnham. I would start this line in tallaght, which may have a Luas already, but could do with an extra line, as it is essentially a city. I would also resurrect the original metro west, but have it starting in dundrum. It would be a huge cost but would be a great alternative to commuters compared to the daily horrors of the m50.

Having said that I would like metro 1 to go ahead as planned and be operational in 2027. My hope would be that this will be a major success and plans will be made asap for more metro lines, as it will be a great success in every way. I would love to have a world class rail network in 20 years that gives the people of this city what they deserve.

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

Dumping an entire line of passengers onto another line would create a huge bottleneck. Better to continue at least through the city. And what about the NE section? Do they deserve a metro less than Rathfarnham?

And so the argument goes on and on and on...

Yes! The sw has NO access to rail and the longest bus journey times in the city, ergo the country. Should we fix that at the expense of metrolink? NO.
Should we fix it after metrolink at the expense of the transport strategy plan? YES!

Also, what exactly do you think I’m arguing against, or as you put it going on and on about?

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I think I may be the poster you are talking about.

If I am, could you please point out any situation where I have misrepresented anything?

You are a poster who has spoken about some whole new area of south Dublin - not Cherrywood, but seemingly on a par with Cherrywood - which is to be developed and have the metro eventually extended to it.

Yet, despite my questions, you seem reluctant to tell the board anything about this place.

I owe you an apology Strassenwo!f, I don't think that you've ever misrepresented anything. I think that you've ignored points that have been put to you, taken data that suits your points while ignoring others, but I don't think that you've ever misrepresented something, so I'm sorry for saying that.

The Christmas stress has gotten to me, and I took it out on the internet, which is something that I've always tried not to do.

As to the points about new developments, I honestly don't know. All I've heard is that there's to be no large scale developments out there. I don't know what size they could be, where they could be put, anything like that. I personally would have thought that the Dart would be enough with the ten minute/five minute (once it's done right) schedule, but as I said, that's all I've heard.

roadmaster

Is metro west dead and buried for good at this stage or might we see it happen?

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

Is metro west dead and buried for good at this stage or might we see it happen?

If you live for another 60 years, then maybe. It's not in the Ireland 2040 plan. I don't think that they're going to look at it again until 2035 or so.

cgcsb

roadmaster wrote: »

Is metro west dead and buried for good at this stage or might we see it happen?

Post 2040 this and DART underground will be considered.

Personally I always found it strange that the state committed to metro west despite the complete and utter lack of a parallel bus service. Where as new urban traditionally is put in along corridors where existing road based PT is heavily over subscribed.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

Post 2040 this and DART underground will be considered.

Personally I always found it strange that the state committed to metro west despite the complete and utter lack of a parallel bus service. Where as new urban traditionally is put in along corridors where existing road based PT is heavily over subscribed.

That's exactly why it was binned. The NTA see a bus corridor able to handle expected demand for the foreseeable future

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

That's exactly why it was binned. The NTA see a bus corridor able to handle expected demand for the foreseeable future

Don't get me wrong I'm not opposed to metro west I just think a new public transport only bridge and link road from the Liffey Valley junction to the Carpenters town road to carry the W4 bus would be a better place to start improving orbital journeys.

Lord Glentoran

CatInABox wrote: »

That's exactly why it was binned. The NTA see a bus corridor able to handle expected demand for the foreseeable future

They must be using the “pulled it out of my arsh” modelling system then.

strassenwo!f

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

They must be using the “pulled it out of my arsh” modelling system then.

No, it seems to be the pattern, in most cities (in Europe, anyway), that the first problem to be solved is getting people into and out of the city centre. This is the most popular destination in every city.

The second one is getting people across the city, which will often be solved as a by-product of dealing with the first problem.

A lower priority is getting people around the city.

Binning the metrowest made enormous sense, given the priorities which Dublin has, and is going to have, for the next several decades.

Idbatterim

imagine the cost if could have been done for during the recession if they had the balls to actually build it, rather than waste billions propping up outrageous welfare rates etc...

Zebra3

Idbatterim wrote: »

imagine the cost if could have been done for during the recession if they had the balls to actually build it, rather than waste billions propping up outrageous welfare rates etc...

Or giving away money needlessly to wealthy bond holders like happened this week. :rolleyes:

Bray Head

Zebra3 wrote: »

Or giving away money needlessly to wealthy bond holders like happened this week. :rolleyes:

Actually the good news is that the taxpayer will see €600m (it's also a creditor of IBRC) that no one anticipated when it was wound up in 2013.

It all gives a little more fiscal space for useful spending long term.

Lord Glentoran

Idbatterim wrote: »

imagine the cost if could have been done for during the recession if they had the balls to actually build it, rather than waste billions propping up outrageous welfare rates etc...

I wonder do senior civil servants clap each other on the back for slowing up or cancelling mass transport projects? It certainly feels like the buggers do.

Sam Russell

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I wonder do senior civil servants clap each other on the back for slowing up or cancelling mass transport projects? It certainly feels like the buggers do.

I think there are a few economists that dance with glee in Donehy and Nesbits each time a major project hits the dust.

Bray Head

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I wonder do senior civil servants clap each other on the back for slowing up or cancelling mass transport projects? It certainly feels like the buggers do.

You don't know any senior civil servants.

They are generally more sympathetic to tangible projects than welfare, for example.

handlemaster

The luas to continue from broombridge passed blanchardstown hospital then to blanchardstown centre.