New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

Not quite:

The Green Line area is clearly much more 'active' in terms of residential density, available jobs, and student areas than the southwest (not including Tallaght because that's already served by Red Line and wouldn't be served by a Rathfarnham Metro anyway).

Thank you for providing the map. It is very informative.

There isn't any one area - even Sandyford - on the southside which can match the requirements of a combination of big places like Swords, the Airport and Ballymun on the northside for this metro project, if it is to be (effectively) mirrored on the southside.

But it is pretty much the norm for there to be a split in metro lines, out in the suburbs, to take account of reductions in density as you go further out. In Dublin, for example, there are splits on the DART line, the Red LUAS and even currently on the Green line to reflect this.

I am in favour of an initial metro to Harold's Cross, but with a plan for an eventual split for a line towards Rathmines, etc., to serve those suburbs directly along that branch.

But from Harold's Cross there is a pretty obvious route towards Walkinstown Cross, which offers frankly majestic opportunities for the metro to hoover up bus passengers from most of southwest Dublin on their journey into and out of town, and reduce journey times massively.

Upgrading the Green LUAS to a metro at this stage, and thus cutting a couple of minutes off the Sandyford - City journey, doesn't seem to offer as much extra to the overall city, as lines to the southwest could, if planned right.

antoinolachtnai

Are you being vexatious here?

(It does seem like every time you are asked to say something definitive about what you propose, you drag the discussion off in another direction. )

The purpose of upgrading the green line is not to knock a few minutes off the journey from Sandyford (though it would do that and a ten minute saving on the journey to O’Connell St is significant).

The purpose is to meet the demand that is already on the line and which will increase when there is metro interchange.

Dats me

Again, Luas Adelaide road will cost more than the Green Line upgrade so it's not really a better solution. The point of green line upgrade isn't to save journey time it's to make sure the line isn't 3,000 people per hour over capacity.

If you want metro in Dublin get this built. Once shovels are in the ground draw out a nice SW - NE metro line and.start emailing TDs.

strassenwo!f

Qrt wrote: »

90% sure the 150m figure is for the station upgrades and other upgrades needed on the green line excl tunnel.

So 150m euro for the upgrade, excluding the tunnel.

And the tunnel?

antoinolachtnai

I would worry more about the cost of the underground stations.

The question is really whether you want to build one enormous station (if you terminate at St Stephen's Green or Charlemont per your plan), or three small stations (as Metrolink is emerging, with stations at St Stephen's Green, Charlemont and Beechwood).

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I will try to get back to the other points soon, but I am initially very curious about this one.

I certainly wasn't aware that there was such a development planned. I'm aware of the welcome development of Cherrywood, but you're saying this is something else entirely. The metrolink documentation makes no mention of it.

Where can I find details about this development, and what is it going to be called?

Is it really possible that I could have missed a proposal for another south-east Dublin development similar to Cherrywood, to which the currently proposed metrolink is going to go?

Read what I said Strassenwo!f, there's no developments planned for the area until after the Luas goes in.

The current plan is for Metrolink to go to Sandyford, with the Luas continuing from there to Bride's Glen, with a planned Luas extension to Bray.

It is then envisaged that the Metro would be extended out to Bride's Glen, with the possibility of some Metro services running all the way to Bray as well (I'll admit that I'm unsure as to how this would work, why not just Metrofy the whole route to Bray then?)

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How much do you think it will cost?

I'm not sure I understand your question. How much do I think what will cost?

To build a metro line to Walkinstown, and a metro line to Rathfarnham, as part of the eventual metrolink project? Certainly at least a couple of billion, maybe three, but that would be over the twenty-five years or so before the Green Line needs to be upgraded, but with huge benefits for the city. 200-300 million euro or so, per year?

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How much would your Baggot Street Special cost?

This question is much easier than the last one. It seems to be around 100m per kilometre for a LUAS, so I'd guess around 150-200m euro for a LUAS link to Baggot Street Bridge.

It probably seems expensive, but it would give whole new areas of the city direct access to the LUAS. The current metrolink does not do that on the Southside.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Under your plan, would the Luas not need to be extended to Charlemont to meet with the BSS and high frequency luas section in any case? Would there also need to be a very large station there to cope with the thousands of people per hour switching between Luas and Metro? How much would this cost?

What is the BSS?

I envisage that people in, say, Sandyford, who wish to get to the centre of town, or somewhere on the Green line route on the northside, would take an appropriate tram. Those who wish to go directly to Baggot Street (or perhaps eventually Grand Canal Dock) woud get on a tram which would go directly there.

I really can't see what is new here. If you live in Malahide you (broadly) don't get on a Howth DART.

strassenwo!f

CatInABox wrote: »

Read what I said Strassenwo!f, there's no developments planned for the area until after the Luas goes in.

The current plan is for Metrolink to go to Sandyford, with the Luas continuing from there to Bride's Glen, with a planned Luas extension to Bray.

It is then envisaged that the Metro would be extended out to Bride's Glen, with the possibility of some Metro services running all the way to Bray as well (I'll admit that I'm unsure as to how this would work, why not just Metrofy the whole route to Bray then?)

But this whole new place that you were talking about, apparently on a par in south Dublin with Cherrywood, which is where the metrolink will, you say, eventually go.

You're not giving us very many details about the location or the name, and I am struggling to find it in the metrolink documentation, or elsewhere.

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But this whole new place that you were talking about, apparently on a par in south Dublin with Cherrywood, which is where the metrolink will, you say, eventually go.

You're not giving us very many details about the location or the name, and I am struggling to find it in the metrolink documentation, or elsewhere.

You won't find it in the Metrolink documentation, because the Metrolink only runs to Sandyford.

Here's a link for the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016 - 2035. In it, you'll see the various plans that the NTA have for the Dublin region, including the extension to Bray, via Shankill and the former Golf Club lands. The final alignment hasn't been set, and won't be until after Metrolink has started construction. The NTA has only got so many staff.

It's also got the reasoning behind not running the Metro through Terenure: There's no expected growth there, while there's massive growth expected along the Green Line

MJohnston

Reading this thread just gives me a migraine - one poster just constantly ignoring facts put to them and then waffling on about something completely newly bonkers they've thought of.

A Metro to Harold's Cross now! What a project that would be! Such vision.

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

You won't find it in the Metrolink documentation, because the Metrolink only runs to Sandyford.

Here's a link for the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016 - 2035. In it, you'll see the various plans that the NTA have for the Dublin region, including the extension to Bray, via Shankill and the former Golf Club lands. The final alignment hasn't been set, and won't be until after Metrolink has started construction. The NTA has only got so many staff.

It's also got the reasoning behind not running the Metro through Terenure: There's no expected growth there, while there's massive growth expected along the Green Line

I have to say this is one part of the strategy I’m not happy with at all. Transport improvements should be to service all areas regardless of the potential growth of that area.
What if that area is completely gridlocked but shows only a small potential for growth (the sw area) are we saying that area should be ignored when we are talking about future projects?
The transport strategy seems to think so.
And before anyone mentions bus connects, that’s just gonna be a non runner in the sw.
I agree the green line upgrade should be part of metrolink, but to start talking about Luas lines out to finglas, bray and Lucan before a metro to the sw (and in the future ne) is a scandal to be honest.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

[/B]

I have to say this is one part of the strategy I’m not happy with at all. Transport improvements should be to service all areas regardless of the potential growth of that area.
What if that area is completely gridlocked but shows only a small potential for growth (the sw area) are we saying that area should be ignored when we are talking about future projects?
The transport strategy seems to think so.
And before anyone mentions bus connects, that’s just gonna be a non runner in the sw.
I agree the green line upgrade should be part of metrolink, but to start talking about Luas lines out to finglas, bray and Lucan before a metro to the sw (and in the future ne) is a scandal to be honest.

I think the problem is that most places in Dublin can claim a similar amount of transport under-investment, and that we sadly are in a political environment which devotes limited resources to more transport.

While that is the case, I think you have to prioritise somehow, and potential growth is a good option. It becomes inescapably more important a factor when you're in the middle of a housing crisis too.

There are areas around the Green Line that have much potential for expansion, but the same is true of areas out near Lucan, parts of Finglas (especially if they can rezone some of the commercial lands, and especially if this Luas extension was to go beyond the M50 and out towards big expansion areas like Hollywoodrath), and even Bray (this is the one that is most dubious to me, but I suppose it's also a very short extension that would be relatively cheap too).

D.L.R.

tom1ie wrote: »

[/B]

I have to say this is one part of the strategy I’m not happy with at all. Transport improvements should be to service all areas regardless of the potential growth of that area.
What if that area is completely gridlocked but shows only a small potential for growth (the sw area) are we saying that area should be ignored when we are talking about future projects?
The transport strategy seems to think so.
And before anyone mentions bus connects, that’s just gonna be a non runner in the sw.
I agree the green line upgrade should be part of metrolink, but to start talking about Luas lines out to finglas, bray and Lucan before a metro to the sw (and in the future ne) is a scandal to be honest.

One metro line at a time. Luas expansion has always been wishy washy.

CatInABox

tom1ie wrote: »

I have to say this is one part of the strategy I’m not happy with at all. Transport improvements should be to service all areas regardless of the potential growth of that area.
What if that area is completely gridlocked but shows only a small potential for growth (the sw area) are we saying that area should be ignored when we are talking about future projects?
The transport strategy seems to think so.
And before anyone mentions bus connects, that’s just gonna be a non runner in the sw.
I agree the green line upgrade should be part of metrolink, but to start talking about Luas lines out to finglas, bray and Lucan before a metro to the sw (and in the future ne) is a scandal to be honest.

Honestly, I'm a massive supporter of upgrading the green line, it just makes more sense than any other plan out there, but the "no expected increase in demand" excuse is a bit off even for me.

The only reason that there's going to be increased demand along the Green Line is because they created the Green Line in the first place. If, years ago, they decide to create a Metro out to Terenure and beyond instead of the Green Line, then they'd be talking about massive expected increase in demand along the Metro, and no expected increase along where the Green Line is.

It all operates on the Field of Dreams principle: If you build it, they will come.

antoinolachtnai

Well, the way we decide whether to go ahead with projects is on the basis of economic benefit.

The Green Line upgrade and interconnection easily passes a test of economic benefit.

A line to Terenure in place of the Green Line upgrade and interconnection would almost certainly would not pass such a test (basically because it would be so expensive, and the number of people who would benefit would be fairly small). It would certainly have a much weaker economic case than the Green Line upgrade.

I think the most inexpensive and realistic way to bring a Metro to southwest Dublin would be a spur from the Metrolink.

Sam Russell

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, the way we decide whether to go ahead with projects is on the basis of economic benefit.

The Green Line upgrade and interconnection easily passes a test of economic benefit.

A line to Terenure in place of the Green Line upgrade and interconnection would almost certainly would not pass such a test (basically because it would be so expensive, and the number of people who would benefit would be fairly small). It would certainly have a much weaker economic case than the Green Line upgrade.

I think the most inexpensive and realistic way to bring a Metro to southwest Dublin would be a spur from the Metrolink.

The idea of a spur to Metrolink would compromise the capacity of the GL south of the spur. The better solution is to build a second Metrolink line that goes from SW to NE, with perhaps an interchange to allow the two interchange - so there would be Sandyford to Swords, Sandyford to Clongriffin (say), Tallaght (say) to Swords, and Tallaght to Clongriffin. As well as those connections, there would be many possible connections with existing rail PT and future planned lines such as Dart Underground, and Dart expansion.

With this level of investment, Dublin would have a fantastic rail based network.

antoinolachtnai

How would a grade separated junction with a spur compromise capacity?

AlmightyCushion

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How would a grade separated junction with a spur compromise capacity?

If the SW spur connects to the metro and continues north then half the metro trains would go down the green line, the other half would use the SW spur which would half capacity. If the SW spur just terminates at a station somewhere on the metrolink then those people have to transfer to metrolink then this wouldn't happen.

antoinolachtnai

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If the SW spur connects to the metro and continues north then half the metro trains would go down the green line, the other half would use the SW spur which would half capacity. If the SW spur just terminates at a station somewhere on the metrolink then those people have to transfer to metrolink then this wouldn't happen.

90 meter or longer trains every three minutes on each of the routes would provide immense capacity. For the densities we have, it would do for a long time.

AlmightyCushion

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

90 meter or longer trains every three minutes on each of the routes would provide immense capacity. For the densities we have, it would do for a long time.

It's still reducing capacity. We do too much short term thinking when it comes to transport. A second metro line would be a much better long term solution than just a spur that halfs the capacity of the green line section of the metro.

salmocab

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

90 meter or longer trains every three minutes on each of the routes would provide immense capacity. For the densities we have, it would do for a long time.

We need to avoid the phrase ‘would do’ we need a robust system from the start a Y shaped line means not getting the second line we need a great big X as the next step.

AlmightyCushion

salmocab wrote: »

We need to avoid the phrase ‘would do’ we need a robust system from the start a Y shaped line means not getting the second line we need a great big X as the next step.

Not to mention crossing the liffey is probably the biggest bottleneck for traffic. A second metro line crossing it would help alleviate that somewhat.

tom1ie

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If the SW spur connects to the metro and continues north then half the metro trains would go down the green line, the other half would use the SW spur which would half capacity. If the SW spur just terminates at a station somewhere on the metrolink then those people have to transfer to metrolink then this wouldn't happen.

As I’ve said before, a sw spur would grade separate terminate at whatever metrolink station, be it ssg or o Connell street north. The sw metro would not share the metrolink tunnel. Therefore if a commuter is going from sw and wanted to go to swords or sandyford, you would get off and change at a different platform for metrolink. The sw spur could eventually be extended to the ne.
Sw spur would have NO effect on the timetabling of metrolink trains. It would just funnel more commuters onto metrolink if they wanted to go swords or sandyford.
In other words this would be modal shift for the sw.

tom1ie

D.L.R. wrote: »

One metro line at a time. Luas expansion has always been wishy washy.

I’ve always stated one metro at a time and if you read what I posted I said I’m in favour of current metrolink plans.

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

As I’ve said before, a sw spur would grade separate terminate at whatever metrolink station, be it ssg or o Connell street north. The sw metro would not share the metrolink tunnel. Therefore if a commuter is going from sw and wanted to go to swords or sandyford, you would get off and change at a different platform for metrolink. The sw spur could eventually be extended to the ne.
Sw spur would have NO effect on the timetabling of metrolink trains. It would just funnel more commuters onto metrolink if they wanted to go swords or sandyford.
In other words this would be modal shift for the sw.

That’s not a spur Tom it’s a metro line.
I think everyone agrees we need a second line but until we have one I doubt we will have the political will to look at a second.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

I think the problem is that most places in Dublin can claim a similar amount of transport under-investment, and that we sadly are in a political environment which devotes limited resources to more transport.

While that is the case, I think you have to prioritise somehow, and potential growth is a good option. It becomes inescapably more important a factor when you're in the middle of a housing crisis too.

There are areas around the Green Line that have much potential for expansion, but the same is true of areas out near Lucan, parts of Finglas (especially if they can rezone some of the commercial lands, and especially if this Luas extension was to go beyond the M50 and out towards big expansion areas like Hollywoodrath), and even Bray (this is the one that is most dubious to me, but I suppose it's also a very short extension that would be relatively cheap too).

Well that’s fine to be coming at it from that point of view.
My point of view is that just because I am living in an area that doesn’t have massive building potential, I should have to put up with very poor public transport infrastructure.
I firmly believe the green line has to be upgraded and should be done now as part of metrolink, however our attention should then be switching to the areas of the city with the WORST public transport times and services. That area without a doubt is the sw.
The ONLY way to improve pt in that area is a metro.
Building other Luas or metros BEFORE addressing this, because of the better potential growth rating of other areas, is a flawed concept.

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

That’s not a spur Tom it’s a metro line.
I think everyone agrees we need a second line but until we have one I doubt we will have the political will to look at a second.

Fair enough, call it what ya want it’s badly needed, but I have never said it should be built ahead of metrolink.

tom1ie

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If the SW spur connects to the metro and continues north then half the metro trains would go down the green line, the other half would use the SW spur which would half capacity. If the SW spur just terminates at a station somewhere on the metrolink then those people have to transfer to metrolink then this wouldn't happen.

Why is this a bad thing? If I’m going from rathfarnham to the airport, my current choice is car.
With a sw spur it would be metro via one change at ssg or wherever. Why is that a bad thing?

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

Fair enough, call it what ya want it’s badly needed, but I have never said it should be built ahead of metrolink.

I never said you did and I’m in full agreement it’s badly needed as, if I remember correctly I live close to you. There unfortunately isn’t a chance of this happening until MetroLink is well underway and probably finished when people will see the benefits and start crying out for them. At that stage expect politicians to be using crayons to route them through their constituencies instead of the current game of drawing around their voters.

tom1ie

salmocab wrote: »

I never said you did and I’m in full agreement it’s badly needed as, if I remember correctly I live close to you. There unfortunately isn’t a chance of this happening until MetroLink is well underway and probably finished when people will see the benefits and start crying out for them. At that stage expect politicians to be using crayons to route them through their constituencies instead of the current game of drawing around their voters.

Agreed, but I suppose the whole thing that made me post on this thread again was the transport strategy that specifically mentioned the reasons a metro would not be built in the sw, which was the fact there was no developmental potential out that direction. I think this approach is fundamentally flawed as I believe pt should be provided to the areas most in need of it. I believe these areas are the sw, and the green line upgrade (due to the low cost of upgrade but high output).
I know we need to get that tbm in the ground before anyone starts piping up about metro sw, but, will the transport strategy be used as a stick to beat the people calling for metro sw as it’s not in the plans?
That’s my concern.