Chemical weapon used on civilians in Syria + Airstrikes

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know.

I still want proof before Syria turns into a multiple-decade conflict like Iraq, which it will.

how will we ever get proof if the russians keeping blocking?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how will we ever get proof if the russians keeping blocking?

They're arriving tomorrow and Russia will be providing assistance.

Unless I'm mistaken and these are different teams we're talking about.

cnocbui

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren't Russia calling for missiles not to be fired until after that team investigates?

I want proof of anything Russia-related in the last two years. Trump Russia, nothing. Salisbury, no proof. Syria, Russia are the ones pleading for the independent investigation while the US is already sending forces and the UK is talking war.


To believe all this stuff with no proof is more conspiracy nut than not believing it.

You don't have a satisfyable threshold of proof. There isn't such a thing as proof as far as you are concerned. Your position is therefore unassailable.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

Weren't Russia calling for missiles not to be fired until after that team investigates?

Since Assad is a key ally of Moscow, and Syria is it's last toehold in the Middle East, The Kremlin repeatedly uses the same tactics to defend it's interests there. When e.g. a significant chemical attack happens, they spread disinformation so as to confuse the source of the attack, they also call for investigations but at the same time often try to stall/block investigations. It's all part of the smokescreen. They have also had to repeatedly obstruct the UN for 7 years on the issue. If they didn't it's likely that international consensus and action could possibly have forced Assad into a diff position - possibly even out of power and Russia would have had a major strategic loss in the Med/Middle East

Putin has expressed no particular sympathy or like for Assad, but it's critical they keep him in power for Russian strategic interests. So you can see it from their view. Whether his forces carry out chemical weapon attacks in contravention of just about every international law there is - is of little consequence to Russia as the populace either a) doesnt know about it or b) doesn't care c) believes the propaganda that it's all "false flags" and so on

Shurimgreat

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't bother reading it because it's full of people like you accusing people like me of defending Assad, when all we want is proof. It's as if there are still people who think the Iraq stuff, which happened in our lifetimes, is still just a conspiracy.

If he really did it, sure, bomb him into oblivion. But until there's proof, the West needs to tone down the war drum.

That's fine.
If it was a false flag operation, the Russians and Syrians would be tripping over themselves to get international experts in there. They would be flying them in, flying out bodies to be tested in international labs. They would find the casing of the delivery bomb or system. They would offer full co-operation.

They did none of that. Instead Russia vetoed an investigation that would apportion blame. They favoured an investigation by the UNSC the results of which could be vetoed. More of the same from Russia. As I said trolling the international community.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

They're arriving tomorrow and Russia will be providing assistance.

Unless I'm mistaken and these are different teams we're talking about.

the OPCW investigation on its own will do nothing. There was a previous investigation team in Syria that was killed off because the russians would not support it. you think the OPCW team will get full access?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the OPCW investigation on its own will do nothing. There was a previous investigation team in Syria that was killed off because the russians would not support it. you think the OPCW team will get full access?

I'm getting accused of having an unmeetable proof requirement, and you have an entirely unmeetable no proof requirement.

Lovely.

I guess we're all back to believing what we want to believe. Have fun, guys.

Shurimgreat

The best case scenario for Syria and Syrians is the US sends in a number of aircraft carriers and stations them in the Med.
Assad decides he's had enough and stands down. He can leave the country and go to Russia if he wants.
This would remove a major impediment to peace and peace talks in Syria and start the eventual ending of the war through relatively peaceful means.
As long as Assad remains in power this war will go on indefinitely. He's a major recruiting card for opposition forces which in turns leads the war to go on longer and longer.
The longer he stays in power the more determined the opposition are to fight him. At this stage, I'm guessing he hopes this war goes on forever. He really doesn't care how many die so long as he lives. And some of his supporters both in Syria and outside feel the same way.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm getting accused of having an unmeetable proof requirement, and you have an entirely unmeetable no proof requirement.

The weight of evidence from previous attacks points toward government forces

A quick overview e;g. in one attack the investigation showed that the type of rocket used was known only to be held by Assad's forces, likewise the type of launcher used. The trajectory of the rockets came from known pro-government positions. The chemical used matched Syrian government stockpiles and expertise in terms of weaponising. Radio chatter was recorded that pointed toward government forces launching the attacks.

These attacks happen again and again, in each case there are varying levels of evidence - however the majority point toward government involvement, in several cases overwehlmingly so

The international response is not about this one attack - it's about the repeated attacks and flagrant disregard

If you want to read about the evidence check the basics on wikipedia - reports are available from the UN and OPCW investigations

ArchXStanton

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The best case scenario for Syria and Syrians is the US sends in a number of aircraft carriers and stations them in the Med.
Assad decides he's had enough and stands down. He can leave the country and go to Russia if he wants.
This would remove a major impediment to peace and peace talks in Syria and start the eventual ending of the war through relatively peaceful means.
As long as Assad remains in power this war will go on indefinitely. He's a major recruiting card for opposition forces which in turns leads the war to go on longer and longer.
The longer he stays in power the more determined the opposition are to fight him. At this stage, I'm guessing he hopes this war goes on forever. He really doesn't care how many die so long as he lives. And some of his supporters both in Syria and outside feel the same way.

You are joking right...

Shurimgreat

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You are joking right...

Unlike you I don't joke about these things or try to wind people up. I leave that sort of thing to people like you. You are much more successful at it than I could ever be.

Assad has been a disaster for Syria, only people like you think differently.

I am aware of most of that stuff. My burden of proof is actually reachable quite easily, but an attack which suddenly has the US and UK potentially becoming majorly involved should be treated as its own incident without prejudice.

If it's an attack that can feasibly be carried out by both sides, then verification is needed.

ArchXStanton

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Unlike you I don't joke about these things or try to wind people up. I leave that sort of thing to people like you. You are much more successful at it than I could ever be.

Assad has been a disaster for Syria, only people like you think differently.

You seem to think everyone with an opposing opinion is out to wind you up...it sounds a bit childish...like calling someone a stupid-head

Yes because Iraq and Libya are such utophias now...

Maybe if they stopped pouring weapons into the place,packed up and fcuked off back to the US...just a thought

Shurimgreat

To get proof you need co-operation from both sides. So far the Syrian/Russian side have been slow to co-operate.

Something to hide maybe?

I think most sane people agree you can't allow the use of nerve agents against civilians go unanswered.

Only a small minority of vocal Assad supporters would be in favour of it going unanswered. Everyone else agrees there needs to be a very forceful response to prevent this happening again.

Dohnjoe

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You are joking right...

Nope, it's largely correct. Even Putin admitted Assad had to be replaced. The problem is ISIS arrived, and that changed everything. In a real twist it could almost be argued that Assad partially owes his continued grip on power to the rise of Islamic State, their arrival triggered the pretext for Russia to join the conflict militarily when Assad's forces were in serious **** toward the end of 2015

Shurimgreat

ArchXStanton wrote: »

You seem to think everyone with an opposing opinion is out to wind you up...it sounds a bit childish...like calling someone a stupid-head

Yes because Iraq and Libya are such utophias now...

Maybe if they stopped pouring weapons into the place,packed up and fcuked off back to the US...just a thought

How many people have died in Libya since 2011? And how many have died in the same period in Syria?

donegaLroad

From 2013:

UN accuses Syrian rebels of carrying out sarin gas attacks which had been blamed on Assad's troops.

Link here

Shurimgreat

donegaLroad wrote: »

From 2013:

UN accuses Syrian rebels of carrying out sarin gas attacks which had been blamed on Assad's troops.

Link here

Does that mean the latest chemical weapons attack shouldn't be investigated in full?
Should not every attack be investigated on a case by case basis?

Just interested in some of the hypocrisy here. You were in favour of a previous UN investigation but are opposed to a full and complete one this time?

Or do you agree that every attack should be fully investigated to find out who did it?

donegaLroad

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Does that mean the latest chemical weapons attack shouldn't be investigated in full?
Should not every attack be investigated on a case by case basis?

Just interested in some of the hypocrisy here. You were in favour of a previous UN investigation but are opposed to a full and complete one this time?

Or do you agree that every attack should be fully investigated to find out who did it?

? I dont know what you are talking about, and I am not a hypocrite.

Shurimgreat

donegaLroad wrote: »

? I dont know what you are talking about, and I am not a hypocrite.

Well the point I am making is, if the Russians for example are so certain the latest attack was carried out by Syrian rebels, you would think they'd be delighted to see a full investigation take place followed by blame apportioned to one side or the other.

Funny then how they aren't in favour of such an investigation.

This thread is becoming repetitive now.

Cheerful Spring

Russian MOD has just released a video of two Syrian medical professionals who were present during the staged chemical attack, they describe what happened. This is not fake one of the doctors can be seen on the video in the background in Douma when people were hosed down with water.

What happened
Two men reported how the footage was shot of people dousing each other with water and treating children, which was claimed to show the aftermath of the April 7 chemical weapons attack. The patients shown in the video suffered from smoke poisoning and the water was poured on them by their relatives after a false claim that chemical weapons were used, the ministry said.

The Russian Defense Ministry also has evidence that Britain had a direct involvement in arranging this provocation in Eastern Ghouta,” the general added, referring to the neighborhood of which Douma is part. “We know for certain that between April 3 and April 6 the so-called White Helmets were seriously pressured from London to speed up the provocation that they were preparing.”

According to Konashenkov, the group, which was a primary source of photos and footage of the purported chemical attack, was informed of a large-scale artillery attack on Damascus planned by the Islamist group Army of Islam, which controlled Douma at the time. The White Helmets were ordered to arrange the provocation after retaliatory strikes by the Syrian government forces, which the shelling was certain to lead to, he said.

Dohnjoe

donegaLroad wrote: »

From 2013:

UN accuses Syrian rebels of carrying out sarin gas attacks which had been blamed on Assad's troops.

Link here

Correct, there have been over 85 recorded chemical attacks of varying types, some of which where evidence points towards rebel brigades/ISIS. ISIS were also suspected to use and attempt to use chemicals in Iraq

The overwhelmingly majority and the most significant attacks have been blamed on pro-government forces. Also those attacks delivered by air obviously require an airforce

donegaLroad

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well the point I am making is, if the Russians for example are so certain the latest attack was carried out by Syrian rebels, you would think they'd be delighted to see a full investigation take place followed by blame apportioned to one side or the other.

Funny then how they aren't in favour of such an investigation.

This thread is becoming repetitive now.

I just had a quick look at Russia Today and this is from one of today's main articles:

Link here

The Russian Defense Ministry has presented what it says is proof that the reported chemical weapons attack in Syria was staged. It also accused the British government of pressuring the perpetrators to speed up the “provocatThe Russian Defense Ministry has presented what it says is proof that the reported chemical weapons attack in Syria was staged. It also accused the British government of pressuring the perpetrators to speed up the “provocation.”

Russia hoped that international monitors from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which is due to investigate the circumstances of the incident, will help establish the truth. He added Eastern Ghouta is currently trying to return to peaceful life after being liberated from militant groups by Syrian government forces.

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Russian MOD has just released a video of two Syrian medical professionals who were present during the staged chemical attack, they describe what happened. This is not fake one of the doctors can be seen on the video in the background in Douma when people were hosed down with water.

What happened
Two men reported how the footage was shot of people dousing each other with water and treating children, which was claimed to show the aftermath of the April 7 chemical weapons attack. The patients shown in the video suffered from smoke poisoning and the water was poured on them by their relatives after a false claim that chemical weapons were used, the ministry said.

The Russian Defense Ministry also has evidence that Britain had a direct involvement in arranging this provocation in Eastern Ghouta,” the general added, referring to the neighborhood of which Douma is part. “We know for certain that between April 3 and April 6 the so-called White Helmets were seriously pressured from London to speed up the provocation that they were preparing.”

According to Konashenkov, the group, which was a primary source of photos and footage of the purported chemical attack, was informed of a large-scale artillery attack on Damascus planned by the Islamist group Army of Islam, which controlled Douma at the time. The White Helmets were ordered to arrange the provocation after retaliatory strikes by the Syrian government forces, which the shelling was certain to lead to, he said.

Again, just to be clear, the Russian line is that there was no chlorine or nerve agent?

This isn't important right now but it will be important when another set of facts come out and the Russians need to change their story.

mcmoustache

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well the point I am making is, if the Russians for example are so certain the latest attack was carried out by Syrian rebels, you would think they'd be delighted to see a full investigation take place followed by blame apportioned to one side or the other.

Funny then how they aren't in favour of such an investigation.

This thread is becoming repetitive now.

Nevermind that. The current line from the kremlin is appears to be that there was no chemical attack.

cnocbui

donegaLroad wrote: »

From 2013:

UN accuses Syrian rebels of carrying out sarin gas attacks which had been blamed on Assad's troops.

Link here

Actually, the article states that the suspicion is that the rebels used sarin against government troops, not civilians or rebels. It also says there is no proof.

If they get proof the rebels did use Sarin then they deserve clobbering.

Cheerful Spring

mcmoustache wrote: »

Again, just to be clear, the Russian line is that there was no chlorine or nerve agent?

This isn't important right now but it will be important when another set of facts come out and the Russians need to change their story.

It was staged they got two medical professionals who were there talking about it on video. Russia is exposing this lie.

Cheerful Spring

One of the interviews published by the ministry showed a man who said his name was Halil Ajij, and who said he was a medical student working at Douma’s only operational hospital. This is how he described the origin of the footage:

“On April 8, a bomb hit a building. The upper floors were damaged and a fire broke at the lower floors. Victims of that bombing were brought to us. People from the upper floors had smoke poisoning. We treated them, based on their suffocation."

Ajij said that a man unknown to him came and said there was a chemical attack and panic ensued. “Relatives of the victims started dousing each other with water. Other people, who didn’t seem to have medical training, started administering anti-asthma medicine to children. We didn’t see any patient with symptoms of a chemical weapons poisoning,” he said.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

It was staged they got two medical professionals

. Russia is exposing this lie.

Claimed by someone body who Russia just found apparently .

Bs

Ardent

The US/UK are just itching to strike Assad. Arming the rebels just hasn't worked. These chemical warfare claims are laughably tenuous and transparent, as they were 3 or 4 years ago when they last tried this trick.

Putin has called their bluff, as he did last time, and we will hopefully see the US slink away with their tails between their legs for another while.

All this posturing between super powers is disgusting but hopefully it doesn't escalate into a major loss of military and civilian lives.