Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143221#Comment_122143221

The problem is that the journeys that I’m referring to are not long trips distance wise.

But in practice, anyone travelling from points all over the city such as Sallynoggin, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Tallaght, Lucan, Blanchardstown, Swords etc. are faced with journey times of one hour or more because of the poor infrastructure and lack of priority.

Expecting them to stand on a bus for that length of time is not in my view an improvement. Double decks afford these people a seat for most of the journey leaving standees for the shorter trips.

As I said, once the journey times reduce when the infrastructure is in place and priority measures are actually enforced then perhaps your idea could be more palatable.

But right now a large number of journeys that should be far faster are taking over an hour because of the lack of priority, and I don’t resile from my view that double deck buses offer those people a significant improvement in comfort for that extended journey time until such time as journey times can be improved on.

dublinman1990

Having many types of buses on offer to provide bus services to people who both live and work in Dublin does sound like a reasonably good idea in theory. However the problem is that the NTA and the bus operators like Dublin Bus & Go Ahead Ireland have to be smart in how they use their fleet for their routes in a proper way. They can't just allocate a bus to passengers when the local infrastructure offers them a lot of obstacles in their path when the bus is trying to provide that useful and efficient service.

One example that I can provide here (which maybe an outlier in fact) is in Blackrock Village & the Dart Station.

If you were driving the bus routes down to Blackrock Dart Station; the only bus that would be suitable for that location would be a mini-bus & a standard twin axle single deck/double deck bus. You wouldn't be able to fit a bendy bus or a tri-axle single deck bus or a coach down there at all as the bus terminus at the Dart Station is plonked in the middle of the access road that heads down into the car park of the station.

Since Covid came to us in 2020; the new cycle lane that was built in Blackrock Village is actually the main reason in restricting what type of bus can go down to either pick up or drop off bus passengers at the Dart Station.

If you are driving down to the Dart Station down along Rock Hill; which is the road going down to Blackrock Village near the traffic lights at Frascati Centre & Blackrock Village Centre; the car/bus traffic lane is located on the left hand side of that road with the bike lane being down on the right hand side.

When the bus gets to the traffic lights down to the station; it does not have a lot space to do a proper left turn. It is largely done in a very tight and very narrow fashion.

If the council in Dún Laoghaire had an proposal to switch the regular traffic lane and the bike lane from Rock Hill down to Central Cafe to having the bike lane on the left hand side and the general traffic lane on the right hand side of the road; I am not sure if that would make more sense. It would have helped the bus a lot of room to breathe to do a proper left turn to head down to the station.

I am not sure if there are any other examples from other posters here in where the local infrastructure currently provides obstacles to bus services offering efficient services in their own part of Dublin.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143322#Comment_122143322

With all due respect, you can’t compare standing on a train or tram with standing on the bus. The two are not the same - buses change their rate and direction of speed far more often than trains or trams and they take corners with sharper angles. This is far more uncomfortable to stand the same length trip on a train.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143906#Comment_122143906

properly designed BRT should be more akin to a tram.

gjim

The alternative to the double decker bus in Dublin is not everyone standing for an hour. This is a not a genuine argument.

The average trip time on a bus in Dublin is around 22min (according to google), suggesting that less than 10% of Dublin bus trips last an hour or more. There are far more 10 minute trips than 1 hour ones. We should not be designing a system for 10% case or else, like I suggest, for long journeys/infrequent stops, double deckers are probably fine. They are not fine in the role of providing high capacity high frequency, "spines" for the system.

It's particularly disingenuous to suggest that everyone stands on single deckers - typical European artic bus has around 50 seats, less than 70+ on a double decker but they have FAR more accessible seating than a double decker. In Dublin, most of the seats (upstairs) are effectively reserved for the young, able-bodied and those NOT with of shopping, kids, etc.

You won't see a double decker bus anywhere in Europe used in the role that we're trying to use them in Dublin - many had fleets of double deckers in the past (until the 1950s they were a urban bus dominant format) but abandoned them in droves once better options appeared. Trying to use double deckers to service a high capacity, frequent stopping service makes about as much sense as using steam locos for a metro-system - the world has moved on.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143906#Comment_122143906

And yet people stand on double deckers every day!

Also as loyatemu says above, good quality BRT's tend to be much more stable, not far off a Luas. Specially as these days they would be EV BRT's and have lots of batteries, which adds a lot of weight and stability.

Also no one is saying replace every double decker with a BRT! The Swiftway plan identified three core routes that were going to be converted to BRT operation, like Swords to the city. These routes were going to be completely upgraded to handle BRT's, with extensive upgrades to the road infrastructure, bus stops, Luas style off bus ticketing, etc. This would have greatly reduced sharp angles, etc.

Lets be honest, a Swords road BRT would have feck all sharp corners, it is basically a straight shot down the M1 and Swords Road. The only sharp turn would be the one onto Gardiner Street.

To be honest, I suspect Swiftway got cancelled, was because they were worried the Swords Road one would be too successful and might impact Metrolink.

Now, I'd say we will be Luasifiying these routes in future rather then BRT.

Pete_Cavan

Part of the reason for the long journey times is the dwell times associated with doubledeckers and driver interactions. Move to multi-door artics and remove ticket purchase from driver and the issue of people standing for long periods gets largely resolved.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144197#Comment_122144197

Properly designed BRT should be a tram. Belfast's Glider is a case in point. Gets stuck in traffic, uncomfortable to stand or get up in while moving. Nowhere near the capacity of a tram either. It looks a bit trammy though and that was the important thing..

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152172#Comment_122152172

Glider is only 18m long, which is pretty short and light (it is Diesel) for a BRT.

While it would require a change in the law in Ireland (current limit is 18m), many countries use 24m BRT's, which when combined with batteries make them much more stable.

Then you have the new 30m long laser guided battery BRT's (they call them ART) that are starting appearing in Asia. You should watch a video of people riding in them, it is remarkably smooth and Luas like.

As for "getting stuck in traffic" that is down to the design of the infrastructure and enforcement. You can just as easily have cars all over a tram line blocking trams without appropriate measures.

Don't get me wrong I suspect we will end up getting Luas on most of these routes, but I wouldn't rule out BRT completely, specially this new ART thing and I still think it was a a massive mistake not going ahead with Swiftway.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143488#Comment_122143488

Cherrywood or Saggart to the cc is a similar distance and journey time to all the trips you've outlined yet I never hear of this being an issue on the Luas.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144255#Comment_122144255

I would say the main reason we are using double deckers in Ireland is not because they offer better passenger comfort but because they are easier/cheaper for operators to allocate.

Most European countries have a mix of buses. Bendy buses for the high frequency core routes, regular 12m single deckers for the regular routes and smaller shorter wheelbase midibuses for the local community routes that serve residential areas where roads are tighter the kind of routes that would have imp buses in the past in Dublin.

The VTs for example I believe were considered unsuitable for certain routes. In the last 20 years or so Dublin Bus in particular have moved to a more streamlined fleet. This I would imagine is because it's cheaper and easier to maintain a common fleet. Same reason Ryanair buy Boeing 737s DB prefer to only buy Volvo/Wright double deckers.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158950#Comment_122158950

No they aren’t - they are well under an hour.

And as another poster pointed out, there is a massive difference between standing on a tram and on a bus. They aren’t remotely comparable.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159252#Comment_122159252

I'd call nonsense on that, modern BRT's in particular EV ones can be made just as stable as trams.

BTW Brides Glen to O'Connell Street is 54 minutes, I wouldn't call that well under an hour! And it is over an hour to Broombrdige, though obviously not many make that journey.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122158991#Comment_122158991

I'd say it is more of a case of we traditionally just follow what the British do. Double Decker for the most part are only used in Britain and some former colonies. There are some exceptions to that, like a relatively small number in Berlin, etc. but really mostly British colonies.

The whole right hand drive thing plays into that and tends to limit choice of vehicles. BRT's would need to be a special order from a company like VanHool, rather then an off the shelf product, thus extra expense.

We also largely copied the British way of ticketing and service operations. The whole enter via the front door thing and pay the driver is very British. While I'm generalising mainland Europe tended to use the Luas model of multiple doors, enter/exit through any door, etc.

I would point out that prior to Network Direct, the DB fleet was much more varied, with over 100 single deckers in the fleet, the VT class and even midi buses. Network Direct and the recession forced cost cutting measures and while shrinking the fleet (and thus driver numbers) they wisely focused the remaining fleet on the Double Deckers to try and maintain capacity while having less drivers.

With the O route we will be heading back to this more varied fleet with more single deckers (yes I know there are 2 or 3 already).

The BE fleet is VERY varied, with for example both single and double deckers operating in Cork.

BTW Ryanairs fleet is more varied these days, while the Max are strictly speaking 737's they are lots of differences with the NG including being bigger and more seats. But also the Ryanair group now includes other airlines that have Airbus aircraft.

Again though, I'm not suggesting that we just randomly replace double deckers with BRT, like when DB tried bendi-buses with zero infrastructure change. I'm talking like the Swiftway plan, that was a major plan to completely rebuild three corridors to BRT. Use Luas style off bus ticketing, etc.

Such a service might not even be operated by DB, it could be GAI or could even have come under Luas and it's operator, so fleet commonality wouldn't really come into it.

KrisW1001

Germany operates buses as pay at the front too, but it's very rare now to see someone paying this way. Most passengers use prepaid tickets that they validate on board.

Along with double deckers, we also inherited the British prejudice about the honesty of the average person: all German bus services run on an honour system (like the Luas), but we insist on having payment on entry, which slows down the service.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159252#Comment_122159252

Just to add that no one is likely to be standing on the tram from the extremes of either route, but rather from points half way along, but the buses do fill up far quicker.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160456#Comment_122160456

You are just as likely to get a seat on a bus double decker or BRT at the extreme ends of the route too.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160109#Comment_122160109

It’s not prejudice, it’s informed by long experience. Anything more than a few percent evasion rate and it spreads by contagion.

KrisW1001

But the same dishonest bus users reform when they take the Luas?