Dublin - BusConnects

cgcsb

Tallaght isn't portobello, it's a much more critical location on the bus network and for general traffic. For similar example have a look at all the cars sailing through college green and down the north quays 24hr bus lane.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515165#Comment_120515165

Ah come on, the volume of cars “sailing through College Green” is nowhere near what you’re implying.

I go through there every day and they are the exception to the rule.

The problem there is the sharing of road space between buses and trams, and a southbound cycle lane that very few cyclists use but which removes a lane for buses.

The bus gate at Frederick Street North works well too.

Compared to before the bus gates were in place, it’s a completely different world.

It’s not perfect, but it’s not the disaster that you imply it is.

We do need camera enforcement but the reality is that politicians need to bring the public with them on these sort of things and that’s going to require a bit of work!

Heartbreak Hank

Am I right in saying that to make a submission now it cost €50 or something? I have made submissions up to this point on a number of the corridors but if I have to put money down I'm not going to. In reality will it be the prescribed bodies and very motivated groups that will submit at this stage e.g. the commuter groups, residents association, or motorist lobbyist etc. All of which will fall into the pro; pro with changes; against groupings.

I don't know if the politicians can do much with these groups.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515232#Comment_120515232

Fair enough If that's your observation. I'd just say that if you observe from a stationary point you get a totally different impression than if you observe as someone travelling through

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515873#Comment_120515873

I spend enough time there stationary on both trams and buses due to the lack of roadspace referred to above to see it for extended periods, far longer than I’d like! ;-)

spacetweek

Have to say the last few times I walked through CG I didn't see any private cars.

Citrus_8

The problem at CG is taxis which should be banned and use alternative roads instead.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542426#Comment_120542426

I don't understand why they can't introduce a toll. Very simple.

If a taxi customer really needs to get through the city in a hurry, then pay a 20euro fee. This would also make it less economical for a group of 4, say, to get a taxi into town on a night out. Get the bus instead.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548994#Comment_120548994

Something similar to the congestion fee in London? It's on a table, just taking very long to implement, as anything in Ireland :) I'm a daily car driver. But even though, whenever I have to go town, I nearly always choose a bus. The last time I took a car to city was probably 3 years ago so I cancelled my parking app. Bus is cheaper, often quicker and I enjoy relaxed occasional rides. If we built more bus lanes, segregated cycle lanes and enforce bus lane illegal use, we could have a decent bus system.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548994#Comment_120548994

In one word - politics.

The politicians know that they need to bring people with them - that means something like a congestion charge won’t happen until, in my view, BusConnects has been rolled out.

It’s a bridge too far I suspect, along with closing the Quays to east/west traffic at O’Connell Bridge as one poster advocates on these boards.

Politics does play a major role - no party wants to be voted out for making unpopular decisions. Political realities mean measures will be introduced gradually, otherwise there will be a revolt at an election on that topic.

The bus gates in Rathmines, Kimmage, Mount Brown and Cabra are all going to have a major impact on traffic heading towards the city.

LXFlyer

Also, people have been conditioned into a “car is king” culture, and that they are a necessity, primarily down to the lack of proper investment in public transport by successive governments.

That culture is going to take time to reverse due to it being ingrained in pretty much everyone over the age of 40.

To do it we need reliable frequent public transport across the city - especially on the orbital routes.

At the moment the staff shortages are playing havoc with reliability. If that continues, people won’t have confidence to use the services.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550407#Comment_120550407

Dunno bout that one, anyone over 40 would have grown up in a time where car ownership wasn't so ubiquitous as it is today..where walking and cycling was more common..

There's a generation of kids now who are used to being driven around in cars to school/shops/social events and who've never cycled a bicycle or walked too far, now there's calls to allow those born in 2007 to be allowed to drive a car.

"reliable frequent public transport" Means Buses that have priority on the roads, 24hr bus lanes with camera enforcement, Bus only streets, traffic light priority, transport police etc.

Pete_Cavan

I was actually disappointed to see the planning application for Templeogue/Rathfarnham to City Centre CBC go in. I've said it before but I think they'd be better off focusing on getting a corridor to construction rather than lumping more applications into an already snowed under planning system. Delaying the application may not even delay delivery of the corridor as labour shortages and general practicalities will mean that some corridors will have to be completed before more can go to construction.

In the meantime, corridors which haven't gone to ABP yet should be assessed for the "low hanging fruit" which can be done through Part 8. There are easy win bottlenecks out there which don't need to spend years with ABP before they can happen. I reckon the 80/20 rule applies to the bus corridors - 80% of the benefits could be had from changing 20% of the corridor.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550543#Comment_120550543

Really?

Most older people drive rather than use public transport, and tend to be the most vociferous against any changes.

Younger people under 25 do now have half price fares which will hopefully encourage them to use PT. Younger people are generally far more concerned about the impact of climate change on their future lives.

Also, my reference above to reliable frequent public transport referred to the schedules actually operating. They’re being crippled right now because of the shortage of staff.

Yesterday evening, for example, Dublin Bus route 14, which should operate every 12 minutes, had two gaps of over 30 minutes and another of 25 minutes during the evening peak (16:45 to 18:15) south of the city centre due to cancelled or curtailed departures as a result of the ongoing staff shortages.

That translates to five departures not operating.

Bus Éireann have several pages on their website listing cancelled services every single day (and that’s doesn’t even cover all of the depots).

Last year the 458 Ballina-Sligo-Enniskillen route, supposedly every two hours, had multiple daily cancellations - no one would depend on that service with that kind of performance.

People just won’t be tempted from their cars if the service doesn’t operate every day.

There has to be delivery of the actual service that is supposed to operate.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550641#Comment_120550641

Most of the six schemes submitted prior to Templeogue/Rathfarnham are all relatively uncontroversial and easy to deliver.

The areas served by the Templeogue/Rathfarnham scheme suffer from the slowest bus speeds in the city. I think to be fair that at #7 to be submitted, it has already been pushed back somewhat. i don’t think ABP are going to look at it any sooner by it being in the queue of projects to be assessed, but at least the timeframe for public input will have passed.

There are only five others to go now to ABP:

• Swords
• Greenhills
• Kimmage
• Bray
• Ringsend

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550715#Comment_120550715

The only thing stopping younger people from driving more in this country is the cost of Insurance as well as long wait times to get a driving test, loads of 05 and 08 cars/sheds going around on the roads so cars are cheaper than ever..

Older people don't have those restraints now, but don't like the discomfort of trying to get on a Dublin Bus Cattle cart..

Not sure about staffing issues, i'd say there's a lot of trouble recruiting and retaining staff, understanable considering the stress and aggravation they face doing that job...

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550835#Comment_120550835

Regardless of the reason, younger generations are definitely turning away from the car. That's not just Ireland, but internationally too, so much so that researchers are suggesting that we've already hit "peak car".

Cars are definitely not cheaper than ever too, that'd totally ignore the fact that shortages have caused car prices to spike, including second hand cars.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120550835#Comment_120550835

The inability to deliver the schedule due to insufficient staff numbers is a massive problem for the bus companies that really does worry me in terms of their ability to deliver improvements.

Last night’s performance on the 14 was particularly bad, but there are cancellations every day across the network. It seems to be getting worse, not better. Looking at the 15 there are three peak hour cancellations already this evening.

That inability to actually operate the existing service won’t help grow confidence in public transport among the public or entice people out of their cars.

The Connecting Ireland programme of new or enhanced schedules across Ireland has also ground to a standstill, and most of the improvements due in Q1 and Q2 haven’t seen the light of day yet.

AngryLips

Hopefully news items such as this one will be noted by neighbourhood committees across the country before objecting to further traffic reduction measures

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/05/01/return-of-motorway-like-traffic-is-untenable-for-health-say-sandymount-residents/

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551092#Comment_120551092

In that case though, different groups are happy and unhappy:

The Strand Road & Beach Road residents want the current status quo maintained because their traffic levels have reduced significantly.

However the residents of Serpentine Avenue and Tritonville Road who have seen traffic volumes increase significantly do want it to revert to the way it was.

They really need a solution that removes through traffic through Sandymount as a whole.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551156#Comment_120551156

I'd like to see the figures on the increase on those roads, as I'd find it hard to believe that it's significant.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551199#Comment_120551199

I suppose different people will define “significant” different ways, and it would depend on what it was like beforehand.

But my general impression for some time (well before the recent kerfuffles) has been that there really is too much through traffic in the general Sandymount area. None of the roads are really designed for it, be it Strand Road or Tritonville Road.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551238#Comment_120551238

On that, we agree, a ridiculous amount of cars for such tiny roads.

bk

"I was actually disappointed to see the planning application for Templeogue/Rathfarnham to City Centre CBC go in. I've said it before but I think they'd be better off focusing on getting a corridor to construction rather than lumping more applications into an already snowed under planning system. Delaying the application may not even delay delivery of the corridor as labour shortages and general practicalities will mean that some corridors will have to be completed before more can go to construction."

The advantage of submitting multiple planning applications, is that if one hits a snag, court case, etc. Well at least they can proceed with the other corridors.

The other issue might be that the planners/engineers might just need to get them done and submitted so that they can move onto their next projects, maybe Luas extensions, etc.

"In the meantime, corridors which haven't gone to ABP yet should be assessed for the "low hanging fruit" which can be done through Part 8. There are easy win bottlenecks out there which don't need to spend years with ABP before they can happen. I reckon the 80/20 rule applies to the bus corridors - 80% of the benefits could be had from changing 20% of the corridor."

I do appreciate this argument, becasue I've seen the same myself. The road widening at the Cat & Cage on the Swords road was only about 100m long, but it made a massive difference to the bus service, a grea t example of what you are saying.

However there is one major issue with that. BusConnects, despite the name, isn't just supposed to improve bus service, but it is also supposed to give us a high quality cycling network and also improvements to walking and public realm. Doing this, wouldn't be possible working on small bottlenecks, you need to do the whole route to get a high quality cycle lane.

Plus there is the argument that you just end up with another half arsed Irish solution. Bus lanes that aren't complete and just disappear wher it is too hard, like how cycle lanes have been designed until now.

Anyway, the biggest bottlenecks that give you the 80/20 are often by far the most difficult and expensive parts to do. Take the Cat and Cage, it was a major job, purchasing land from the University, knocking, moving and rebuilding the wall, significantly widening the road. By comparison, the improvements to be made to the rest of the Swords road should be relatively straight forward as it is mostly a wide road with pre-existing QBC. So I'm not sure you would gain all that much by not just doing the job properly.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120551156#Comment_120551156

That's the perception but I don't think the traffic counts being done by DCC confirm that perception: https://irishcycle.com/2023/03/02/traffic-counts-show-increases-decreases-and-balancing-of-traffic-in-sandymount-area/

LXFlyer

The Tallaght/Clondalkin CBC has been lodged with ABP

https://tallaghtclondalkinscheme.ie/

cgcsb

Can't believe that they're going to leave the Christchurch/high St junction like that. An absolute disgrace. A 6 lane motorway and a few cms of footpath right through one of the country's most historic sites

cgcsb

So 4 left now:

Ringsend

Kimmage

Bray

Swords

Would be great if we could start seeing some building work and more importantly some ENFORCEMENT OF THE ACTUAL RULES

CatInABox

When is the first one meant to come out of ABP? It's really taking the piss now.

tom1ie

Will there be a dedicated bus corridor route that would bring you in the direction of Rathfarnham to Clondalkin? It’s a trip I have to do at the moment and it’s absolutely killing me being stuck in traffic in the car. Maybe it’s an orbital?