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So does hell exist or what

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    #122
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

    Yet instead you came on making false claims about Christianity and what Christians believe, which you then failed to back up when asked to ?


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    #123
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    are we seeing the same words??

    I don't know what you're seeing that's why I asked :

    If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?


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    #124
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    this is the interpretation Im seeing:

    God sent Jesus to Earth not primarily as a punisher, but as a redeemer. Those who believe in him as their savior shall be rewarded, those who dont believe shall be punished.


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    #125
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    St.Faustina's Vision of Hell

    "I, Sister Faustina Kowalska, by the order of God, have visited the Abysses of Hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence...the devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God, What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: That most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell." (Diary of St. Faustina, paragraph 741)


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    #126
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

    The Greeks came seeking wisdom, the Jews sought truth.
    They were both baying for His blood in the end.


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    #127
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Can a really really good person get into heaven if they don't believe in Jesus?

    Well, it would seem the answer depends.

    According to Catholic.com, the answer is a 'no', as they are culpable. A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission if they were really really good. Atheists, however, will not be received into the beatific vision and will presumably become mods on boards.ie instead (even if they are really really good).

    Focus on the Family is a conservative Christian evangelical group based in the US, and they ask a similar question on their website. Again, the answer seems to be 'no'. One can read their article here.

    And of course there is the Gospel verse quoted above, which also seems to say that nope, you can't get into Heaven except through the Lord (this would presumably include really really good people).

    Is there a case to be made for presenting examples of Christian doctrines that teach one can enter Heaven if one is really really good but not a believer?


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    #128
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    this is the interpretation Im seeing:

    God sent Jesus to Earth not primarily as a punisher, but as a redeemer. Those who believe in him as their savior shall be rewarded, those who dont believe shall be punished.

    So if he was standing in front of you, would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe in him and why / why not ?


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    #129
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I don't know what you're seeing that's why I asked :

    If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?

    Jesus on earth, or in heaven?

    on earth I would need to evaluate if Im in the presence of a mentally ill person, or someone with real supernatural powers. Id expect him to have dark hair and dark skin, probably short in stature. if it was heaven Id need to know if it was a dream.

    would I want to believe in him? I dont know, If I did believe in him Id have alot of difficult questions. I feel like the primary reason that most believe in him is that they are afraid of death & the unknown. it offers them a peacefulness, a way of removing existential anxiety from their minds


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    #130
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    pauldla wrote: »
    Can a really really good person get into heaven if they don't believe in Jesus?

    Well, it would seem the answer depends.

    According to Catholic.com, the answer is a 'no', as they are culpable. A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission if they were really really good. Atheists, however, will not be received into the beatific vision and will presumably become mods on boards.ie instead (even if they are really really good).

    Why did you leave out this bit from the link you posted ?
    If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable.


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    #131
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."


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    #132
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Why did you leave out this bit from the link you posted ?

    In my extremely short synopsis I mentioned culpability, did I not?

    Are you ready to present your context for the verses mentioned above? I am keen to learn your perspective.


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    #133
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    pauldla wrote: »
    In my extremely short synopsis I mentioned culpability, did I not?

    Yet , you claimed the answer was not and they were culpable.
    pauldla wrote: »
    Are you ready to present your context for the verses mentioned above? I am keen to learn your perspective.

    Well a Christian I believe in Christ that's my perspective regarding the verse quoted.

    From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?


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    #134
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    John 20:29 ►
    "Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


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    #135
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    Jesus on earth, or in heaven?

    on earth I would need to evaluate if Im in the presence of a mentally ill person, or someone with real supernatural powers. Id expect him to have dark hair and dark skin, probably short in stature. if it was heaven Id need to know if it was a dream.

    would I want to believe in him? I dont know, If I did believe in him Id have alot of difficult questions.

    Fair enough.
    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    I feel like the primary reason that most believe in him is that they are afraid of death & the unknown. it offers them a peacefulness, a way of removing existential anxiety from their minds

    That's the problem with assumptions about what people believe and why. I'm not afraid of death at all, and if there's no life after death who's going to care ?


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    #136
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Yet , you claimed the answer was not and they were culpable.

    If I may quote myself:
    A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission.

    I await your comments.

    Well a Christian I believe in Christ that's my perspective regarding the verse quoted.

    From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?

    You stated that the verse quoted was out of context. Please provide the correct context, from your perspective.


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    #137
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    It's not my primary reason. I'm not afraid of death at all, and if there's no life after death who's going to care ?[/quote]

    Matthew 10.28
    "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    Your eternity is at stake if not caring for the life after death!


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    #138
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    pauldla wrote: »
    If I may quote myself:

    "A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable and would therefore be given admission."

    I await your comments.

    Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

    "If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

    pauldla wrote: »
    You stated that the verse quoted was out of context. Please provide the correct context, from your perspective.

    Originally, the poster claimed to the effect that Christianity believes 'really really good' people who don't believe in God cannot ever go to heaven.

    Even the link you posted make clear this is not true.

    Perhaps you would answer the other questions you have been asked ?

    If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?


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    #139
    mosii
    Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭mosii


    I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
    And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.


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    #140
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

    "If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

    The ignorant not being culpable is exactly what I said, is it not?

    , the poster claimed to the effect that Christianity believes 'really really good' people who don't believe in God cannot ever go to heaven.

    Even the link you posted make clear this is not true.

    Perhaps you would answer the other questions you have been asked ?

    If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?

    Well, the links I gave (as you'd asked for links), make it clear that 'it depends', but overall it does seem that if you don't believe, you ain't getting in. That said, there is a wide range of Christian doctrines, as I'm sure you know. Are there churches that teach one can get into Heaven if one does not believe in god?

    As you still have not given the correct context for the verses you challenged, I am under no obligation to entertain further distracting hypotheticals until you have provided that context.


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    #141
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    is this not a forum for discussion on peoples beliefs? I would like to know what people believe

    The Greeks came seeking wisdom, the Jews sought truth.
    They were both baying for His blood in the end.


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    #142
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    mosii wrote: »
    I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
    And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.

    Nor did they deserve the penal laws, but despite the horrendous economic and social pressure not to remain Catholic and pass on the faith to successive generations they risked life and limb and everything to ensure they did. Famine and such laws are caused by the greed of men.


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    #143
    mosii
    Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭mosii


    And why were they allowed to suffer and die ,by a loving God?Belief or no Belief,what was the point to their horrible existence?


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    #144
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    mosii wrote: »
    And why were they allowed to suffer and die ,by a loving God?Belief or no Belief,what was the point to their horrible existence?

    If someone choose to hurt others why do you think that is God's fault and no theirs ?

    Why do you think people who are treated horribly by others have no point to their existence ?


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    #145
    mosii
    Registered Users Posts: 328 ✭✭mosii


    I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.


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    #146
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    pauldla wrote: »
    The ignorant not being culpable is exactly what I said, is it not?

    There was two instances of culpability, ignorance, and also inability. You left out one of them.
    pauldla wrote: »
    Well, the links I gave (as you'd asked for links), make it clear that 'it depends', but overall it does seem that if you don't believe, you ain't getting in.

    Which contradicts the links you posted about culpability.
    pauldla wrote: »
    That said, there is a wide range of Christian doctrines, as I'm sure you know. Are there churches that teach one can get into Heaven if one does not believe in god?

    You posted a link from one that does, based on the culpability factors.
    pauldla wrote: »
    As you still have not given the correct context for the verses you challenged, I am under no obligation to entertain further distracting hypotheticals until you have provided that context.

    I've given the actual context as has your very own link, so

    From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?


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    #147
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    mosii wrote: »
    I often wondered ,what did the millions of poor Irish who lived and died horrible deaths, in the great famine 1845, do, to deserve such hardship, from a loving God.? Did many of these poor creatures go to Hell,? or delivered from HELL?.Did they have free will?when there existence and death, was probably predetermined by the fact they were born into a particular part of this planet,at a certain time in History.
    And even today in many parts of the world, needless famines and suffering are taking place. I would concentrate on having enough food and water, and money, for my family before worrying about the existence of a hell.

    I thought the famine was the result of the greed of the ruling British then ? & Not a loving God to blame. Only God in Heaven can know their hearts and judge them.


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    #148
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    mosii wrote: »
    I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.

    Because everyone has been given free will to do whatever they want.

    Should God not allow such free will ?


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    #149
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    Yes, it's also known as the bog.


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    #150
    peaceboi
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭peaceboi


    mosii wrote: »
    I cant understand ,how a loving God ,allows these things to happen.

    "Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."
    James 1: 16-17


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    #151
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    There was two instances of culpability, ignorance, and also inability. You left out one of them.

    Bob_Marley wrote:
    Apart from ignorance of Christ, you also left out the bit that was also critical to the discussion . .

    "If, however, because of circumstances a sincere person is prevented from coming to belief in God, then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and such a person would not be considered culpable."

    Then his lack of faith is called invincible ignorance, and is not culpable. I rendered it as 'A person ignorant of Christ would not be culpable' (#127). How have I misrepresented it?


    Which contradicts the links you posted about culpability.

    Catholic.com mentions culpability. Does the evangelical website mention it? It is a common Christian doctrine? Is it widely held in the same regard? I doubt it, but please feel free to share what you know.


    You posted a link from one that does, based on the culpability factors.

    So that's the only Church that teaches culpability? Are there others?
    I've given the actual context as has your very own link, so

    I don't see how my very own link has given the correct context for the verses of John 3 you disputed. If you have given your context, I cannot find it; could I ask you to direct me to the post, please? No need for a link, just the post number will do (I know how these things can be a hassle, especially on a mobile device).
    From your perspective of the verse, If you were standing in front of Jesus would you believe in him or not ?

    Would you want to believe him, and why ?

    Well, I said I wouldn't address this until you'd provided your context, and I don't see that you have, but I'll engage your question. In what context am I standing in front of Him?


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