So does hell exist or what

iamtony

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Limbo was never a place, nor was it ever a Catholic doctrine. It was a speculative theology term used by speculative theologians to mean "we don't know".

The media are the least truthful and least reliable source of actual Catholic doctrine / news.

Then shouldn’t hell, heaven and ‘limbo’ all be called limbo - because we don’t know.. Personally however I find it impossible to believe in something which has absolutely zero evidence.

dar100

kelly1 wrote: »

Hell is not a theory. Jesus mentioned it several times, more than heaven in fact.

You fail to understand the cinceot of a theory then

Squall Leonhart

iamtony wrote:

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does. Questions I have for believers in the fairytale. 1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway. 2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

Before I respond to your questions, please note I am a resolute atheist. No belief in any kind of life after this and the notion of hell has always struck me as absurd, the same as the description of heaven being an eternity of worshipping and praising God to be one I'd happily avoid

1) That all works well in theory I guess, but we don't all get a moment of reflection to repent for our sins before we die. Could be a sudden heart attack, or car crash etc.

2) You're assuming all practicing religious person is only practicing because it's the environment they were raised in. There are many many converts, or people half ass raised in a faith who did their own soul searching and then committed themselves to a belief system.

Delirium

iamtony wrote: »

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

MOD NOTE

Please be aware that referring to Christian beliefs as 'fairytales' or 'crazy ness' is not acceptable.

Please refrain from insulting Christian beliefs.

Thanks for your attention.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

I've never bothered to get into it with you lot but just stumbled across this thread so excuse me if it's off topic.

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.

iamtony wrote: »

Hell doesn't exist, no more than heaven does.
Questions I have for believers in the fairytale.
1. Why do you follow the religious and go to church weekly when you can just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed and go to heaven anyway.
2. Why can intelligent human being be sucked into this whole crazy Ness. Seriously Im not attacking your sanity but like I know the whole existence of life is hard tó comprehend and Consioncenness is unexplainable but why do you blindly believe in the faith you were thought because you were born in a certain country. Would you blindly follow the protestant religion if you were born into a protestant family of a Muslim family without question.

1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Then shouldn’t hell, heaven and ‘limbo’ all be called limbo - because we don’t know.. Personally however I find it impossible to believe in something which has absolutely zero evidence.

Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

As for never believing in something that has no evidence, what type of evidence would convince you and why ?

I also happen to believe that alien life exists somewhere in vastness of our universe as it probably has the conditions necessary to sustain life not just on earth but elsewhere, yet to date, zero evidence has been found of any alien life - does that mean no one should believe there is alien life out there and that NASA has wasted billions and is doing so seeking any evidence for alien life ?

iamtony

Squall Leonhart wrote: »

Before I respond to your questions, please note I am a resolute atheist. No belief in any kind of life after this and the notion of hell has always struck me as absurd, the same as the description of heaven being an eternity of worshipping and praising God to be one I'd happily avoid

1) That all works well in theory I guess, but we don't all get a moment of reflection to repent for our sins before we die. Could be a sudden heart attack, or car crash etc.

2) You're assuming all practicing religious person is only practicing because it's the environment they were raised in. There are many many converts, or people half ass raised in a faith who did their own soul searching and then committed themselves to a belief system.

As an atheist I guess I'm not really asking you, not being smart but I'm just trying to get into the heads of believers.
In response to number 1) what God would be so cruel to exclude you from heaven for not worshipping him of you were just about to start worshipping him before he decided to take you, or give you Satan.
2)converts probably account for 0.0000000001 percent of members of religions.whatever about having a belief system but thinking the creator of the world would want everyone to go worship him every Sunday since the year zero. So for the coupe of million years before that did every just go to hell then?

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.



1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.



Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

You just literally dodged my second question. Do you think if you were born Muslim you would of seen the light and became a Christian?

VW 1

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

You just literally dodged my second question. Do you think if you were born Muslim you would of seen the light and became a Christian?

I haven't dodged anything so please be truthful.

I left the Church many years ago and believe in nothing. Only after studying many religions for myself, did I return to Christianity.

Also there are quite a few former atheists on this forum that are now Christians, so that also nullifies your claim, as do the conversions from other religions to Christianity.

iamtony

VW 1 wrote: »

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Yep. Be a good person. No need to follow false gods to get into the afterlife if there is one. No god could make such rules of he would be as evil as the people committing the crimes.

Bob_Marley

VW 1 wrote: »

My take on it, as someone who is undecided but more likely an atheist, and definitely anti - church, is that nobody has come back to speak of heaven or hell.

To me the bible sets out, by using a narrative, archetypal stories and passages that can be reduced down to a basic set of principals and morals which one can use as a guide to live ones life by.

These basic principles are those which, at their most pure, all people should strive to follow.

Well if you rule out near death experiences, then no one has come back to tell if heaven or hell exits or not, but that does not mean they do or do not exist.

As for morality it's totally subjective, not objective. The Nazi's and Stalinists for example, considered what they did perfectly moral, justifiable and rational.
What may be moral to one person may not be moral to another, so you cannot claim that everyone is going to come up with what you consider moral.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I haven't dodged anything so please be truthful.

I left the Church many years ago and believe in nothing. Only after studying many religions for myself, did I return to Christianity.

Also there are quite a few former atheists on this forum that are now Christians, so that also nullifies your claim, as do the conversions from other religions to Christianity.

I couldn't be more truthful, sorry if I came across that way but can you directly answer my question please. If you were born in a Muslim, or Jewish or whatever family you wouldn't believe in what was thought to you from an early age? I know people convert. Did you out of interest?

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well firstly we are not a "your lot", Christians are a diverse group of people like anyone else.



1. Unless it's a genuine change of heart (which can happen), I don't think trying the first stunt is going to fool God. Also why would/should a genuinely believing person not try to practice what they believe in, why would they wait until their deathbed to practice what they believe ?

2. Again Christians are a diverse group from former atheists to reverts. From PhD's to Carpenters. No adult blindly practices anything, Adults come and go from Christianity all the time.



Christians believe heaven and hell exists, because Christ believes they exist and often spoke of them. There's no speculation. In contrast Limbo was never a Catholic doctrine and is not a place.

As for never believing in something that has no evidence, what type of evidence would convince you and why ?

I also happen to believe that alien life exists somewhere in vastness of our universe as it probably has the conditions necessary to sustain life not just on earth but elsewhere, yet to date, zero evidence has been found of any alien life - does that mean no one should believe there is alien life out there and that NASA has wasted billions and is doing so seeking any evidence for alien life ?

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

iamtony

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

The chances we are the only planet in the universe with life are zero. Its not even questionable. There is life out their. Finding if is another matter. Any rational human being would be very nieve to be able to ignore that fact.

Johnnyhpipe

iamtony wrote: »

The chances we are the only planet in the universe with life are zero. Its not even questionable. There is life out their. Finding if is another matter. Any rational human being would be very nieve to be able to ignore that fact.

I agree completely. I’m comparing belief vs evidence vs time..

Bob_Marley

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

Surely the suggestion that Christ said anything at all is speculative.

Well all credible professional historians agree on two things, Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified by the Romans in first century Judea.

The accounts of what Jesus said are contained in the new testament. Of course you are free to believe that Jesus was mad / bad / lying, or his followers who wrote the new testament were mad / bad / lying, and Christians are free to believe Jesus and his followers were telling the truth.

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

As for alien life, I don’t know at this stage. But if you were to ask me after another 2000 years of space exploration, if we’ve found nothing at all, not even a shred of evidence or anything even close to it by then, I would probably conclude that alien life is unlikely.

Well given the utter vastness and age of the universe, and the extreme short time span that humans have existed compared to the age of the universe, that is very likely indeed. It still would not be evidence that alien life does not exist.

Johnnyhpipe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well all credible professional historians agree on two things, Jesus of Nazareth existed, and was crucified by the Romans in the first century.

The accounts of what Jesus said are contained in the new testament. Of course you are free to believe that Jesus was mad / bad / lying, or his followers who wrote the new testament were mad / bad / lying, and Christians are free to believe Jesus and his followers were telling the truth.



Well given the utter vastness and age of the universe, and the extreme short time span that humans have existed compared to the age of the universe, that is very likely indeed. It still would not be evidence that alien life does not exist.

Agreed

kumate_champ07

the idea of a hell where satan punishes those who are evil seems silly, it would make more sense for satan to welcome all the sinners who did his work for him. unless satan is being tortured in heaven too, but who would be torturing him? or is satan experiencing extreme pleasure in hell by having an endless supply of victims in which he can do as he pleases to them?

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

I couldn't be more truthful, sorry if I came across that way but can you directly answer my question please. If you were born in a Muslim, or Jewish or whatever family you wouldn't believe in what was thought to you from an early age? I know people convert. Did you out of interest?

I've already answered it twice now, I left my birth religion and believed in nothing, as do many people, so that rules out your claim that all adults who are brought up in certain faith are just 'blind' followers of that religion.

Years later, as I came to release there was more to life than mere physicality, I explored all religions in great detail, including Islam, but I found nothing and no one comparable to Jesus Christ.

kumate_champ07

where was god and satan 5,000,000 years before Jesus was born? did heaven and hell exist back then? what happened to humans when they died? if the concept of sin didnt exist, where are all their souls now?

iamtony

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

the idea of a hell where satan punishes those who are evil seems silly, it would make more sense for satan to welcome all the sinners who did his work for him. unless satan is being tortured in heaven too, but who would be torturing him? or is satan experiencing extreme pleasure in hell by having an endless supply of victims in which he can do as he pleases to them?

Sure isn't he a fallen angle himself. He must be doing God's work in punishing those of us non believers by burning us until the end of time just as an all forgiving God would want of us mear mortals he created for making mistakes he already knew we were going to do. Get a grip.

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already answered it twice now, I left my birth religion and believed in nothing, as do many people, so that rules out your claim that all adults who are brought up in certain faith are just 'blind' followers of that religion.

Years later, as I came to release there was more to life than mere physicality, I explored all religions in great detail, including Islam, but I found nothing and no one comparable to Jesus Christ.

I understand that with age we start realise how none of it makes sense and the thoughts of a mystical afterlife are the only way some can conprehend existence but organised religion isnt the answer. Be a good person if there's a higher being that takes applications to the happy afrerlife you'll get on by being a good human. Not by going to a church build by a greedy organisation which like all other religious groups take your money every síngle time you need there services.

kumate_champ07

I feel like original sin was created so that people would have to pay their way into heaven, it just seems too cruel for a soul to enter this realm as an entity guilty of a crime. it seems more of a cruel crime for it to enter this world in the first place, perhaps this is hell.

Bob_Marley

iamtony wrote: »

Sure isn't he a fallen angle himself. He must be doing God's work in punishing those of us non believers by burning us until the end of time just as an all forgiving God would want of us mear mortals he created for making mistakes he already knew we were going to do. Get a grip.

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.

iamtony wrote: »

I understand that with age we start realise how none of it makes sense and the thoughts of a mystical afterlife are the only way some can conprehend existence but organised religion isnt the answer. Be a good person if there's a higher being that takes applications to the happy afrerlife you'll get on by being a good human. Not by going to a church build by a greedy organisation which like all other religious groups take your money every síngle time you need there services.

Again, you're making false assumptions/claims about what Christians actually believe and why they believe it, of course you are free to do so, but you're only kidding yourself.

iamtony

Can any Christian answer why would God want us to worship him? What is that all about? Does he get an ego boost from the people he created worshipping him? What about the other species he created on this planet that don't have to go to church like the dogs and the whales and the birds and other innocent creatures that don't happen to speak English. Do they automatically go to hell?

kumate_champ07

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.

I dont think its exclusively those who reject god that end up in hell, some people are never introduced to Christianity, and they go to hell. unbaptized children who die dont go to heaven, or has that changed recently, and if it has changed will all the babies who died before it changed be allowed enter heaven now?

*edited , I didnt make my point clear, im tired

Bob_Marley

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I dont think that is true, some people are never introduced to Christianity, and they go to hell. unbaptized children who die dont go to heaven, or has that changed recently, and if it has changed will all the babies who died before it changed be allowed enter heaven now?

What are you basing these claims on ? Proper original source please, and not some badly written journalism / false info.
I take it you are also referring to term 'Limbo', which was never a Catholic doctrine, so nothing has changed.

kumate_champ07

iamtony wrote: »

Can any Christian answer why would God want us to worship him? What is that all about? Does he get an ego boost from the people he created worshipping him? What about the other species he created on this planet that don't have to go to church like the dogs and the whales and the birds and other innocent creatures that don't happen to speak English. Do they automatically go to hell?

I think your tone of questioning might be too abrasive, I understand where youre coming from but its that kind of attitude that gets any type of discussion shut down

iamtony

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Why are you making up what Christians actually believe ? Hell from a Christian point of view is the choice of those who voluntarily reject God and choose eternal separation from God and all that is good for eternity.



Again, you're making false assumptions/claims about what Christians actually believe and why they believe it, of course you are free to do so, but you're only kidding yourself.

So let me get this straight. God created us humans, to be who we are on this planet. But if we reject him we go to hell? Why would he create humans who reject him just so he could send them to hell? Are we bad people because we dont believe in a god? He made us this way did he not? I Consider myself a really really good human being. I do a lot of good things but it doesn't matter if my mear mortal brain god created can't follow Christianity.