How can I build muscle without meat?

gozunda

Markgc wrote: »

There may be holes in arguments from time to time but you're blind to the facts. Slaughter houses are not humane places. End of.
Look we all have to live together so let's get on the best we can.
I may come back to this thread at a later date but time to relax now with some Larkin Poe

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLv8hDftQbc

That aimed at me? though not sure we were talking about that. \?/ But hey your opinion. But never said death was prety and what happens afterwards ain't pretty either but it's fairly irrelevant at that point.

Markgc

gozunda wrote: »

That aimed at me? though not sure we were talking about that. /o\ But hey your opinion. But never said death was prety and what happens afterwards ain't pretty either but it's fairly irrelevant at that point.

No....
but this might...
treat it as a metaphor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj4SJolBPt0

gozunda

Markgc wrote: »

No....
but this might...
treat it as a metaphor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj4SJolBPt0

Nah - no thanks. Not really my thing tbh ...

Markgc

gozunda wrote: »

Nah - no thanks. Not really my thing tbh ...

No worries.
Let's just agree to disagree.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Its a much better idea to actually go and see how a range of farms are run and to explore all the environmental and ethical issues inherent in all types of agriculture before listening to one person and jumping on your favourite bandwagon.

I know vegans are always giving out about non vegans using euphemisms to describe meat eg beef pork etc if you would stick to the good old honest term of 'meat eater' that would be much better imo.

If you believe that meat eaters or others are laughing or poking fun at you just because they have pointed out huge gaping holes in your arguments - then that's more likley to be overt paranoia than reality tbh ...

No paranoia here.

There are no ‘gaping holes’ just people signing off with lol or lmao. I know for some there is security in numbers and some people would struggle without making ‘normal’ choices.

This is what I find with most carnists anyway - A stupid comment followed by a stupid guffaw and a quick glance around looking for the nodding heads to comfort their view and to make sure they are still in the majority. Carnists, for some reason, seem to take a lot of comfort being in the majority.

I grew up in rural Ireland and was fairly close with the four farming families in our parish. The one thing I will always remember was their reliance on government subsidies. Even at a young age I remember thinking it wasn’t actually a business model that worked. Left to survive in the real marketplace, that most business survives in, would seemingly put a lot of farmers out of business.

You would be naive to think I became a vegan after one conversation but that conversation did encourage me to do my own research and make my own mind up. I’ve never been one for following the masses ignorantly and believing everything the government tells me.

Mellor

Markgc wrote: »

For sure.
But it's always good to hone one's skills.
I realise I'm talking to some brick walls here...

Not really. People are just over the whole diet propaganda thing.
Most importantly, this is the fitness forum. Not the ethics forum, not the vegetarian forum, not even the food forum (although it would probably be bumped to V&V there also).

You're opening post asked about training with a vegan diet. W

Markgc wrote: »

I haven't lifted weights in ten years and would like to restart and get big and strong but red meat from cows is pumped with antibiotics and pork is packed with cholesterol and saturated fat. But primarily not at the expense of an animal's life.

Can anyone point me to a good vegan guide or regime?

Which is on topic. But every one of you posts past that first page are ranting a veganism - which isn't on topic. You are also ignoring the posts that reply to your OP and have given you advice.
Which suggests the whole thing was a red herring to push an agenda. Been done to death tbh.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No paranoia here.

There are no ‘gaping holes’ just people signing off with lol or lmao. I know for some there is security in numbers and some people would struggle without making ‘normal’ choices.
This is what I find with most carnists anyway - A stupid comment followed by a stupid guffaw and a quick glance around looking for the nodding heads to comfort their view and to make sure they are still in the majority. Carnists, for some reason, seem to take a lot of comfort being in the majority.

Generalising much? Again context is everything. There are huge gaping holes in what has been put forward in the promotion of veganism on this thread imo. This has been already pointed out by various posters in detail and at lenght.

A lol comment at the end of an aside - is not an statement of derision. Stating that it is - is paranoia imo. Posters on this thread are individuals and not 'numbers' and the arbitration of normality is not decided by moralising.

I grew up in rural Ireland and was fairly close with the four farming families in our parish. The one thing I will always remember was their reliance on government subsidies. Even at a young age I remember thinking it wasn’t actually a business model that worked. Left to survive in the real marketplace, that most business survives in, would seemingly put a lot of farmers out of business.
You would be naive to think I became a vegan after one conversation but that conversation did encourage me to do my own research and make my own mind up. I’ve never been one for following the masses ignorantly and believing everything the government tells me.

I was going by what you stated that you went vegan after having a conversation with one concerning dairying. This ..

I learned (from a simple conversation with a vegan)how awful animals were also treated in the diary industry I became vegan 

So no niavity there. Few in my experience have any real experience of the actual reality of real farming to base such opinions on. They get sucked in to by the beliefs of others. But ya veganism is the new trendy - that much is evident.

On a general note - neither is it a good idea imo to use videos and / or other online spiel (in place of first-hand experience) or indeed applying facts or figures concerning farming in the US or elsewhere as being somehow relevant here.

Many things work with government subsidies such as the transport roads etc. Primary food production is in itself a form of essential service / resource - something at least some seem not to understand. But it is of note all types of farming - arable horticultural and animal recieve some funding across the board. It remains that all farming activities are heavily regulated in this country.

Last but not least I do not believe in government conspiracy theories tbh

What is the government conspiracy theory ?

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What is the government conspiracy theory ?

Perhaps you would tell me?

klopparama wrote:

...I’ve never been one for following the masses ignorantly and believing everything the government tells me...

Mooooo

Ye do know how animals in the wild die? They either die slowly of starvation or injury or are eaten alive quiet literally, sometimes after being chased and hunted for hours. Farmed animals if injured or old and sick are euthanized and those sent to a meat factory are killed instantly. Stock are raised and treated and fed well other wise the farm simply won't survive. Cows not designed to live on grass?? Where do you see there cousins on nature programmes,? grazing the plains of Africa America etc. Their stomachs are designed to do just that. Also on those same nature programmes what happens every spring and summer, the give birth and few months later pregnant again by the males in the herd once they aren't sick or injured, every year. Same as on a farm. They can live to 20 but what is the average age in the wild? Have had cows here to 17 years of age. With respect to subsidies they were brought in to bring the cost of food down. Some of the biggest recipients are tillage farmers. Ireland can grow most crops it's getting to the harvest stage is the issue with our damp climate therefore very little of what is grown here makes it to food grade and so is sent for animal feed. Majority of animal feed is material that is rejected for food or left over from processes that make food or products for people. Majority of soy is actually grown for oil for human use., the left over meal is sent for animal feed.
I cannot grow food grade grain and other veg on the majority of my farm. I can grow grass. Cows and cattle can use that grass. Using water figure from other countries is not relevant here as water is plentiful here and not being pulled from anywhere else. A lot of vegan products are made from imported food with chemicals added. Almonds aren't exactly environmentally friendly.

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

Perhaps you would tell me?

Is that what you took out of it ?

Conspiracy theory ?

You’re gas.

I think we are on very different levels of intellect.

I’m out.

gozunda

Update: No marks. Plagiarism. :rolleyes:

Markgc wrote: »

I liked meat. Loved it. So do most people. It’s natural to crave meat. What vegans don’t like is the needless suffering animals endure in order for me to eat that meat.We have evolved as an omnivorous species to eat all sorts of things to maximize our survival. This is in line with many other generalist traits we evolved (such as our dentition) which helped us maximize reproduction within a dangerous and often changing environment. However, we never had any biological requirement to include meat as part of our diet, and certainly less so in contemporary times with modern knowledge about nutrition.On dentition:Our teeth prove that we are opportunistic omnivores. Nothing more. In fact, there are many features of our bodies that show we evolved to eat far less meat than most other omnivores. This is in line with our nearest neighbor, the chimpanzee, which will only eat meat occasionally, despite large sharp canines.Most people would feel bad upon seeing a domestic animal like a cat or dog suffer, and would never consider harming one themselves, but they don’t stop to think twice about eating an animal. Farm animals feel pain and emotional stress the same as humans, and certainly as much as domesticated pets do. Their suffering is no less intense just because they don’t speak English or walk on their hind legs or live in our house with us. Just because we enjoy the taste of some animals doesn’t mean that we should be freely allowed to eat them whenever we please. People who believe in “animal rights” believe that all animals have worth, regardless of what need they can serve for humans. It’s the belief that every being has the right to life without suffering or pain. Animals were not “put here” for any purpose. They share the planet with us and we have no right to cause them to suffer for our pleasure.
Cows for example led a long happy life (20 years is the natural lifespan), foraging on the food they evolved for (forest leaves and bushes, not grass and grains), frolicking with other members of the herd (both male and female), mating and giving birth several times and bonding and raising their offspring through weaning. Then Farmer Brown captures one of these nearly-wild animals in a way that doesn’t scare it at all, calmly walks it alone (no scary truck rides) to a location where no other cow will hear, smell, or see the killing and butchering (it cannot be the same place each time, as the smell of blood doesn’t soon go away) and cleanly and perfectly kills it with the first shot and butchers it without any other members of the heard knowing. He then sells this tough and stringy 20 year old meat to you. Why do I find this hard to believe? Anything less than it’s natural life in it’s natural environment would be the human mistreatment of an animal for your pleasure. And unacceptable.
Human suffering and animal suffering are actually related more than one would assume. You cannot be concerned about one without concern about the other. Much worldwide human suffering is linked to humans not having access to vital resources like food, water, and shelter. The animal industry leeches these resources from humans, especially food and water. By spending so much money and resources on feeding and watering animals for human consumption (mostly in Western countries), we are stealing it from people who need it most. Also, assuming humans are of more importance than animals is speciesism, a prejudice toward one animal over another. A speciesist believes that a human’s suffering is more significant than another species’ suffering, and disregards the fact that pain is pain.
Yes, vegans are passionate about the choice we made. We feel it is truly a moral and ethical imperative that animals come to no harm through willful or negligent actions on the part of humans. Animals must never suffer for our vanity or pleasure. Period.  When another person challenges something that we believe to be a moral imperative, we stand up and say that it’s wrong. Remember, it’s the behavior we detest, not the person. We are frustrated when we see
people who choose to look the other way when they know the truth. When we see how they pamper their pet dog and would never allow any harm to come to it, yet wolf down a ham that was cut from an animal that is smarter and more sensitive than any dog. Some of us get angry about this hypocrisy and choose to raise the awareness in malzoans.Contrary to what you might think, though, most vegans are not loud about their food, and on occasion may simply try to educate meat eaters about the choices they make. This can be touching a sensitive nerve in the malzoan, most likely due to the fact that the meat eaters wishes to remain ignorant about the awful truth of their meat. As long as they can buy chunks of muscle pre-wrapped far away, and don’t have to face the truth or know how much pain was actually involved, they can continue to satisfy their addicted tastebuds. Vegans see this as selfish and immoral behavior. How can we not say anything? It’s our absolute obligation to speak out on behalf of the animals. To us, this is the same as if we saw a dog being abused by children on the sidewalk. We will not simply walk by as if it’s no concern of ours and we expect that other civilized people would intervene against such obvious cruelty as well.
All vegans want is to reduce suffering. Period. If you know of any other way to effectively reduce the suffering of animals that is more effective than boycotting the product and speaking out against exploitation, by all means lets hear it. Otherwise, your arguments are nothing more than excuses for why you want to continue eating meat. All of which we’ve heard many times before – and they’re always just excuses. Unless you show any willingness to be open to the idea of veganism, you’re just wasting your time and ours. Turn your eyes away from the pain and suffering and move on.
Philosophically, I believe it is our moral imperative to reduce suffering whenever and wherever reasonably possible. I recognize it’s not possible to totally eliminate suffering, but the important thing to me is that the effort is made.

Hahaha - Mr Markgc I have to hand it to you - and here's me giving that that was "your opinion" You really are priceless! I can now firmly conclude you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you up the rear-end...

Here's the website you've been copying and pasting from directly for your little passive aggresive tirades in this thread against everyone else and normality - word for fracking word! At the very least it's plagiarism. Vegan plagiarism if you will ...:rolleyes:

http://malzoism.org/snappy-answers-to-common-malzoan-questions/

It has the "It is natural to eat meat and to crave it." .... Don't dispute that but that's someone else opinion and not yours though

It has the "farmer Brown and his twenty year old cow" on there - ahem!

It has the "male geese gang raping female geese" there that you went on about earlier

It has the "chimpanzee, which will only eat meat occasionally" which I have already pointed out is rubbish

And on and on and on - covering practically everything word for word you put down as your "opinion"

But guess what - it is trite rubbish which you have clearly copied and pasted as your own - with little or no thought or logic or checking of actual facts. Do you really think prople are so stupid they wouldn't cop on?

Here's just one little example of that misinformation for you ....

I keep domestic geese and have done so for many many years and I can tell you this - geese mate for life and whatever they do they do not - repeat not "gang rape" female geese. Geese are in fact very respectful of their partners and other geese having a largely monogamous relationship and a rather gentle mating ritual. BUT YOU WOULDN'T KNOW THAT WOULD YOU!

Just like how you No Nothing about agriculture except what you are fed on these rubbish pro vegan websites. God forbid you should actually go out and learn for yourself and find out first-hand.

Your postings are nothing but a fraud - a bit like this thread and your "opinions" ...


Edit: I forgot you also said this after copying and pasting the pro-vegan piece of propaganda above

Markgc wrote:

...But it's always good to hone one's skills. I realise I'm talking to some brick walls here but there may be some looking in whom agree with us but unwilling to offer an opinion as it will always have to be vehemently defended. If I've put doubt and put on the road to inquiry and change, one person's mind over the last couple of days, then I've succeeded.
It's hard work but let them laugh all they like. It's the last laugh that counts.

Ya thats definitely the last laugh all right there boyo ....

Ok just I'll just leave that here for all the other posters to check out that as well for their amusement. I'm signing off with a genuine lol ....

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is that what you took out of it ? Conspiracy theory ? You’re gas.

I think we are on very different levels of intellect*.
I’m out.

Ok ....

Ah nice use of more passive aggressive comments* there I see - ...

Well perhaps you would be good enough to explain what you do mean when you said

klopparama wrote:

I’ve never been one for following the masses ignorantly and believing everything the government tells me.

Seems fairly clear cut and without other qualification or perhaps are you like your friend above don't/ can't give an explanation? Just interested ... thanks

bladespin

Markgc wrote: »

Slaughter houses are not humane places. End of.

Certainly more humane on the animals than the people who usually work there, have you ever worked in one? Are you speaking from experience or just opinion?

Anywhoo, not sure what that has to do with body building but whatever.

mathie

Markgc wrote: »

It's the last laugh that counts.

Sigh.
Really ... just .... Sigh.
That's all I can do when I read this.
It reminds me of a guy I used to know who was only ever happy when he had the last laugh. And when he didn't he did everything in his power to get it.

You don't need to have the last laugh.
You don't need the one-upmanship.
That is the root of all arguments / disputes / wars.

Why not just live and let live?

Veganism might work for you but not for others.
Catholicism might work for you but not for others.
Collecting Star Wars figures might work for you but not for others.

I say this as a vegan BTW for however much it matters.

s7ryf3925pivug

I was vegetarian for about seven years. Started eating poultry and fish in the last year because there were medical reasons for someone in my household to. Veganism is totally viable for most people but it doesn't suit everyone.

While I was vegetarian I never pushed my ideas on people. I only really discussed my views when invited. This was because I thought it would make them less likely to view vegetarianism positively or as a reasonable choice. It was also because debates about it do get a bit tiresome, and you do encounter people who just want to argue with you about it (always with the same old arguments too, and often kinda personally offended for some reason).

It's interesting that there is a recent increase in veganism, and also an increase in outspoken veganism. I think It's a good thing for people to go vegan and respect the discipline and effort required in maintaining a healthy vegan lifestyle.

Mellor

Markgc wrote: »

As with all urges and cravings humans have the intellect and capability to overcome debasing preferences.

You use your intellect to overcome a preference for paedophilia?

Markgc

Mellor wrote: »

Not really. People are just over the whole diet propaganda thing.
Most importantly, this is the fitness forum. Not the ethics forum, not the vegetarian forum, not even the food forum (although it would probably be bumped to V&V there also).

You're opening post asked about training with a vegan diet. W



Which is on topic. But every one of you posts past that first page are ranting a veganism - which isn't on topic. You are also ignoring the posts that reply to your OP and have given you advice.
Which suggests the whole thing was a red herring to push an agenda. Been done to death tbh.

As I said, it was a genuine post appealing to like minded people[vegans] ,many whom agree with the wording of the OP. It was appealing to the health aspect rather than the needless killing aspect.
Which people are just over the whole diet propaganda thing? Those with closed minds? Yes. There is still plenty out who need to be informed and want to be informed.

In most of my posts I was ranting AGAINST the ASSUALT on my way of thinking.
The title explained all. You did not need to get involved yet you couldn't help yourselves! You guys started SOAPBOXING FIRST. You guys brought it off topic. Period. Well done.

gozunda

Markgc wrote: »

As I said, it was a genuine post appealing to like minded people[vegans] ,many whom agree with the wording of the OP. It was appealing to the health aspect rather than the needless killing aspect.
Which people are just over the whole diet propaganda thing? Those with closed minds? Yes. There is still plenty out who need to be informed and want to be informed.

In most of my posts I was ranting AGAINST the ASSUALT on my way of thinking.
The title explained all. You did not need to get involved yet you couldn't help yourselves! You guys started SOAPBOXING FIRST. You guys brought it off topic. Period. Well done.

:rolleyes: ^^^^ :pac:

Mellor

Markgc wrote: »

As I said, it was a genuine post appealing to like minded people[vegans] ,many whom agree with the wording of the OP. It was appealing to the health aspect rather than the needless killing aspect.
Which people are just over the whole diet propaganda thing? Those with closed minds? Yes. There is still plenty out who need to be informed and want to be informed.

In most of my posts I was ranting AGAINST the ASSUALT on my way of thinking.
The title explained all. You did not need to get involved yet you couldn't help yourselves! You guys started SOAPBOXING FIRST. You guys brought it off topic. Period. Well done.

The fact you admit it's propaganda and don't see anything wrong with that is a big part of the issue. Your attitude is the kind that gives vegans a bad name.
If you question was genuine, you didn't act like it. As you basically ignored lots of genuine advice to engage is arguments.

Based on that I'm out. Good look getting stronger.

Grateful Dread

s7ryf3925pivug

Actually I think I was misinformed about the diabetes thing. There's evidence veganism has a strong protective effect against it. My previous statement was based on the advice of a dietician consulted about gestational diabetes. So yes you might be advised to eat meat to reduce risk, but it appears to be bad advice.

gozunda

Crosby Early Performer wrote: »

Actually I think I was misinformed about the diabetes thing. There's evidence veganism has a strong protective effect against it. My previous statement was based on the advice of a dietician consulted about gestational diabetes. So yes you might be advised to eat meat to reduce risk, but it appears to be bad advice.

Blergh- this is a general post and not specific to your post ok

It's one thing that gets on my wick is the claims of various things that supposedly 'cure' or help 'prevent diabetes

There are in fact different types of diabetes

Type 1
Type 2
Gestational

Any one making universal declarations about a cure or indeed 'prevention need to know how potential irresponsible and life threatening such inaccurate claims really are especially where the type of diabetes is rarely detailed imo.

Type 1 is not 'curable' / 'preventable' by any change in diet or lifestyle - it effects young people as a result of their body failing to produce insulin and is a life threatening condition if not properly managed - with a need to administrator insulin on a daily basis

Type 2 is caused by a process of insulin resistance and may be helped with diet management and / or medication

Gestational relates to diabetes developed during pregnancy

To make any claims of cures / prevention is as reckless as claiming cancer can be cured by quackery :mad:

Joey Carbstrong is a frequent bs about diabetes in my experience ...

The facts are:

From diabetes.ie

The "body automatically (keeps) your blood sugar exactly at the right level. Here is how that works. After a meal containing carbohydrates, sugar is absorbed into the blood stream very quickly. The amount of sugar in your blood must not get too high or too low. Two hormones – insulin and glucagon – were produced in the pancreas – to ensure that the blood sugar was always well controlled no matter how much you had to eat and how much you exercise"

https://www.diabetes.ie/about-us/what-is-diabetes/

Insulin is used by the body to control levels of glucose derived from ingested carbohydrate.
And that has shag all got to do with "meat" ...

However eating 'processed' meats such as hot dogs etc which contain large amounts of cereal, fillers, soya (carbs) plus additives may very well have an negetive effect on people's blood sugar levels on those diagnosed with one of the 3 types of diabetes listed above

https://blog.bulletproof.com/the-truth-about-red-meat-and-diabetes/

s7ryf3925pivug

I thought it was implicit that type 2 diabetes was being discussed. You can reduce the risk by diet and lifestyle. Being fat increases insulin resistance for example. Exercise increases insulin sensitivity.

70% of people who develop gestational diabetes go on to develop type 2 diabetes. The dietician I mentioned was advising both how to manage GD and reduce the risk of type 2. She advised eating meat for both. However there are credible studies that indicate that vegetarians and vegans have less chance of developing type 2 diabetes after adjusting for other factors.

I've no doubt Joey carbstrong talks total rubbish, and assume he exaggerates this sort of stuff.

gozunda

Crosby Early Performer wrote: »

I thought it was implicit that type 2 diabetes was being discussed. You can reduce the risk by diet and lifestyle. Being fat increases insulin resistance for example. Exercise increases insulin sensitivity.

70% of people who develop gestational diabetes go on to develop type 2 diabetes. The dietician I mentioned was advising both how to manage GD and reduce the risk of type 2. She advised eating meat for both. However there are credible studies that indicate that vegetarians and vegans have less chance of developing type 2 diabetes after adjusting for other factors.

I've no doubt Joey carbstrong talks total rubbish, and assume he exaggerates this sort of stuff.

As stated above it wasn't directed specifically towards your post - rather at the non specific claims about curing / preventing 'diabetes' and the dispensing of "advice" and the frequent failure to distinguish specific diabetic conditions (btw I know you refered to 'gestational diabetes' in your last post)

As diabetic complications are potentially life threatening for even type 2 diabetics I strongly believe this condition should not be put up for general discussion. Such medical advice is best provided by medical professionals only.

Markgc

'In the Nurses' Health Study II cohort, among 4502 women with a history of gestational diabetes, there was a 36% increased risk of diabetes among women with the highest overall low-carbohydrate diet score, and a 40% increased risk when the low-carbohydrate diet favored animal products.[105] '


5.3. Carbohydrates
It is a common perception that carbohydrate-rich foods should be avoided in people who have, or are at risk for, type 2 diabetes. As with protein and fat, it is essential to distinguish between the types and sources of carbohydrates. Meta-analyses of cohort studies demonstrated that carbohydrates from whole grains and cereal fibers reduce the risk of developing diabetes while refined,[20],[101] low-fiber carbohydrates can increase the risk of diabetes.[29] Metabolic studies also confirm benefits of carbohydrates in comparison to animal protein. Sargrad, et al.,[102] compared high-protein versus high-carbohydrate diets, while keeping fat intake constant at 30%, for a period of eight weeks in patients with type 2 diabetes. The high-carbohydrate group was instructed to eat more bread, cereal, pasta, and starchy vegetables while the high-protein group was instructed to have more fish, chicken, eggs, low fat milk, cheese, and nuts. Although weight loss was equivalent in both groups, the high-carbohydrate group had a decrease in hemoglobin A1c (from 8.2% to 6.9%, P < 0.03) and fasting plasma glucose (from 8.8 to 7.2 mmol/L, P < 0.02), and an increase in insulin sensitivity (from 12.8 to 17.2 mmol/kg per minute, P < 0.03). No significant changes in these parameters occurred in the high-protein group.

Moreover, low-carbohydrate diets have been found in several studies to actually increase the risk of type 2 diabetes. Among more than 40,000 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study, the highest quintile of a low-carbohydrate eating pattern, when based on animal sources, conferred a 37% increased risk of diabetes; interestingly, when the low-carbohydrate diet was based on vegetable sources, it was protective, decreasing risk by 22%.[103] Halton, et al.,[104] found a similar protective effect of plant-based low-carbohydrate diets among women in the Nurses' Health Study, although, in this population, the overall low-carbohydrate score did not increase risk. In the Nurses' Health Study II cohort, among 4502 women with a history of gestational diabetes, there was a 36% increased risk of diabetes among women with the highest overall low-carbohydrate diet score, and a 40% increased risk when the low-carbohydrate diet favored animal products.[105] In the EPIC-Potsdam cohort, Schulze et al.,[106] noted that a higher carbohydrate intake at the expense of protein might decrease diabetes risk. In the general and geriatric populations, low-carbohydrate diets have been associated with increased all-cause, cardiovascular, and cancer mortality.[107]–[110]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

Avatar MIA

Markgc wrote: »

'In the Nurses' Health Study II cohort, among 4502 women with a history of gestational diabetes, there was a 36% increased risk of diabetes among women with the highest overall low-carbohydrate diet score, and a 40% increased risk when the low-carbohydrate diet favored animal products.[105] '


5.3. Carbohydrates

Ah, Mr Copy and Paste - "I hate all domesticated animals' is back...

Markgc

mathie wrote: »

Sigh.
Really ... just .... Sigh.
That's all I can do when I read this.
It reminds me of a guy I used to know who was only ever happy when he had the last laugh. And when he didn't he did everything in his power to get it.

You don't need to have the last laugh.
You don't need the one-upmanship.
That is the root of all arguments / disputes / wars.

Why not just live and let live?

Veganism might work for you but not for others.
Catholicism might work for you but not for others.
Collecting Star Wars figures might work for you but not for others.

I say this as a vegan BTW for however much it matters.

'Originally Posted by Markgc View Post
It's the last laugh that counts.'

Yes the laugh of joy to see harm to animals drastically reduced. It won't be iradicated any time soon.

"Just live and let live...." you say this as a vegan.

Forget about the environment, the economy and health. Veganism is not about what you eat. It's about what you do not eat.
I sigh when I hear vegans say that they are happy to be quiet.
There is no victim in collecting Star Wars' figures.

Avatar MIA

Markgc wrote: »

I sigh when I hear vegans say that they are happy to be quiet.

A quiet sigh?

Good man.

Alf Veedersane

Markgc wrote: »

'Originally Posted by Markgc View Post
It's the last laugh that counts.'

Yes the laugh of joy to see harm to animals drastically reduced. It won't be iradicated any time soon.

"Just live and let live...." you say this as a vegan.

Forget about the environment, the economy and health. Veganism is not about what you eat. It's about what you do not eat.
I sigh when I hear vegans say that they are happy to be quiet.
There is no victim in collecting Star Wars' figures.

Do you engage in self flagellation for the time you spent eating animals given how much vigorously you wish to make your point?