Should we stop bullying the United Kingdom?

indioblack

Nomis21 wrote: »

I was born in Finchley. I lived there 30 years. 10 years ago I moved to Ireland.

I would never go back to living in Finchley or anywhere else in UK because it is a society where people don't care about each other. By voting for Brexit the British have shown they don't care about anyone except themselves. In all the arguments prior to the vote did you ever hear Ireland mentioned at all?

The Turkey's have voted for Christmas and I am so grateful I live in this country and not the UK.

Come on. Did the ROI join the EEC for the benefit of Europe?
Did they take all that money from 1973 because of their innate altruism? [You only began to pay in more than you received in 2014].
You live in a country where everyone genuinely cares for everyone else?
And you've left a country where nobody cares about anybody?
With an attitude like yours, I'm sure there are plenty of your former hosts who are glad you reside where you are now.

Galwayguy35

There's no need for a UI, the loyalists would never go for it and we don't need the extra expense of trying to pay for the 6 counties.

Nationalists have the choice to be Irish citizens so I think most people are happy to leave well enough alone

Actually I like the fact that the Brits have to pump £11 billion a year into NI to keep it going even though it's about as useful to the rest of the UK as a third ball and they would throw it back to us in the morning if they could.

As for the loan that the UK gave us, it's being paid back with interest so that little bollix Andrew Pierce needs to shut up talking sh1te.

You would swear if was a gift they gave us,actually it should have been a gift considering they cut down all the forests to make the ships for their empire which would be worth billions today.

steddyeddy

indioblack wrote: »

Come on. Did the ROI join the EEC for the benefit of Europe?
Did they take all that money from 1973 because of their innate altruism? [You only began to pay in more than you received in 2014].
You live in a country where everyone genuinely cares for everyone else?
And you've left a country where nobody cares about anybody?
With an attitude like yours, I'm sure there are plenty of your former hosts who are glad you reside where you are now.

The poster is using hyperbole. People in the UK do care for each other, but once again Brexit has highlighted the fact that British nationalism is toxic for Ireland.

indioblack

steddyeddy wrote: »

The poster is using hyperbole. People in the UK do care for each other, but once again Brexit has highlighted the fact that British nationalism is toxic for Ireland.

I'll await the poster's reply to confirm that. Hyperbole needs to be crafted carefully - else it becomes hyperbolic!
Much easier to say what you mean.

EdgeCase

timthumbni wrote: »

Good post actually. I would suggest however that in the end the transition from being in the eu to the outside of it will be a lot easier than the scaremongers would have you believe. It has to be remembered that a bit over 100 years ago Europe had real tangible problems,

I suspect it will cause about a decade of recession. There’s a hell of a bumpy ride ahead of this is a hard Brexit without ageeement.

It won’t be “mad max” but it could well be 2008 all over again.

The biggest issue is that economies are based on confidence and is that runs out, the UK has a pretty big debt load that could suddenly crystallize

EdgeCase

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think the whole thing points to a very fundamental flaw in the structure of the UK itself: it never evolved into a federation of any type. It's 'England and some other minor countries we acquired along the way.'

As a result you've got the peripheral union members being dragged off a cliff by England.

It should have had major constitutional reform centuries ago, but it didn't, and the result has always been strains, confused identities and a large degree of dysfunction.

I always feel it's a modern, progressive country (countries) firmly bolted to a legacy mess of nearly medievalism that includes a formalised class system (in the 21st century), the Lords (including Bishops of the Church of England) in the legislature, English notions of superiority over the rest of the UK, and so on.

When you get some issue like this, the cracks all show up.

If the UK economy does go wallop due to Brexit, it will be interesting to see how the aftermath is handled and whether the union will survive as it is now.

My experience of the English relationship with Northern Ireland is that they think it's a foreign country and somehow has nothing to do with them. I've had 'shock' a few times when I explained that the Troubles largely happened in *the UK* not the Republic of Ireland, as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

You spouted similar bull**** in the politics thread. Maybe you should live in the uk for a while and learn about the place before making n even bigger fool of yourself.

EdgeCase

Aegir wrote: »

You spouted similar bull**** in the politics thread. Maybe you should live in the uk for a while and learn about the place before making n even bigger fool of yourself.

Great rebuttal there! Well done. You must be proud.
You have not actually countered any of my points.

In my experience of having lived in the UK I have always found it has a completely confused sense of national identity. I’ve found a lot of English people disown Northern Ireland either due to ignorance or because they want to distance themselves from it when it’s doing something awkwardly embarrassing and it *is* a modern country bolted to a legacy system that included an actual formalised class system and an archaic mess in the upper house, that literally does include all the bishops of the Church of England.

The periphery is very much ignored in debate, as there’s no federal system and a kind of weird mishmash of very recent devolution.

You’ve also got NI running as a political system in parallel with different parties in Westminster, and Scotland moving that way with the rise of the SNP which is quite an odd setup.

I do find it’s an odd mix of a modern democracy bolted to a class system and the remnants of an aristocratic system.

The single biggest mess in Brexit has been caused by a mass assumption that the EU border was in Dover not on the Irish border, as it’s not in England.

You can get angry about that being pointed out, but it’s fact.

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

Operation United Ireland???...... there is no such thing and there will be no such thing unless you persuade a sizeable number of ni unionists that it is a good thing.

You have it the wrong way round... again. It's the unionist minority that need to keep everyone else persuaded that UK jurisdiction is in their interests.

Arlene and the DUP are doing a superb job of demonstrating why it isn't.

EdgeCase

Well, it’s fairly obvious that if it weren’t for the Tories’ predicament of being supported by the DUP in a minority government, the primary concern would have been a smooth Brexit above all NI unionist concerns.

Taytoland

timthumbni wrote: »

EdgeCase wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

I agree the lords should be abolished. Why should uk economy go wallop after leaving the eu though ? Do economies of a high standard not exist out with the eu?

Potentially massive disruption to highly integrated supply chains and several years of environmental instability would be two of the major reasons.

I don't think the exit schedule is possible to achieve at all without something very dramatic happening.

You can't really just compare a country that is deeply integrated into a system like the EU and one that isn't. There are so many things that have developed assuming that the integrated structures were permanent.

The open hostility towards even contemplating a proper deal with the EU, which is the world's largest developed economy (or possibly 2nd largest after the UK leaves but it's still huge), no deal with the US and potential economic shocks from a deal with them if it's on bad terms, and the list is endless really.

If they crash out, it's a BIG problem.

To do this without major problems, it should have been prepared for for about 8 years, then activate article 50, then leave in a sane and agreed way.

What we look like we're headed for is storming off in a huge hissy fit doing maximum damage.

The problem I'm seeing is a sort of mix of arrogance, haste and fatalism that could end up causing very serious economic problems.

Leaving the EU is possible, but it's a bit like unscrambling an omelette - you need a team of top experts and a hell fo a lot of patience and dedication to achieve even a partial result. To stretch a metaphor, the UK is going to end up with no omelet and egg all over the place.

Good post actually. I would suggest however that in the end the transition from being in the eu to the outside of it will be a lot easier than the scaremongers would have you believe. It has to be remembered that a bit over 100 years ago Europe had real tangible problems,

The British economy will be just fine. It will be fine in 20 years from now and people will be wondering what the fuss was about.

EdgeCase

Taytoland wrote: »

The British economy will be just fine. It will be fine in 20 years from now and people will be wondering what the fuss was about.

In 20 years time, yeah maybe. The problem is the 10+ years or so after Brexit.

Whatever way you look at it, this is a very significant adjustment and you will have major bumps in the road.

Taytoland

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Operation United Ireland???...... there is no such thing and there will be no such thing unless you persuade a sizeable number of ni unionists that it is a good thing.

You have it the wrong way round... again. It's the unionist minority that need to keep everyone else persuaded that UK jurisdiction is in their interests.

Arlene and the DUP are doing a superb job of demonstrating why it isn't.

The fact that the Irish economy would tank tomorrow if a United Ireland happened speaks for itself. The reality is the Irish health system would literally collapse trying to care for 1.8 million extra people when it's struggling as it is. And why anyone would vote to leave sterling to join the Euro would be one of life's mysteries.

EdgeCase

Not necessarily - you wouldn’t be shutting down the NI health system and shuttering the hospitals and placing everyone into the existing HSE, you’d just be continuing on and integrating things over a decade or so.

It might even be the driver for completely reforming the HSE. Bear in mind we spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

I don’t see a United Ireland happening anytime soon though and certainly not in a chaotic slamming the two states together kind of way like that.

steddyeddy

Northern Ireland is a basket case because it's run to be a basket case.

Whatever happens it's clear that Northern Ireland won't survive outside of the single market. It will be the biggest casuality of Brexit.

Taytoland

EdgeCase wrote: »

Not necessarily - you wouldn’t be shutting down the NI health system and shuttering the hospitals and placing everyone into the existing HSE, you’d just be continuing on and integrating things over a decade or so.

It might even be the driver for completely reforming the HSE. Bear in mind we spend more per capita on health than the UK does.

I don’t see a United Ireland happening anytime soon though and certainly not in a chaotic slamming the two states together kind of way like that.

How is the Irish state going to afford to take on so many people in the health system without completely crippling it, causing gigantic waiting lists. The Irish government would have to increase taxes hugely, causing job loses, the economy would take a huge hit.

AllForIt

All this 'special friends' stuff is all superficial nonsense when it's get's down to the nitty gritty. Every country is looking after themselves and that's the way it should be.

Junkyard Tom

Taytoland wrote: »

The fact that...

A UI wouldn't happen overnight and it wouldn't be an exercise in absorbing the north with all its baggage in one fell swoop.

EdgeCase

It will survive but it won’t prosper and it brings risks of serious instability if the border comes back.

EdgeCase

Taytoland wrote: »

How is the Irish state going to afford to take on so many people in the health system without completely crippling it, causing gigantic waiting lists. The Irish government would have to increase taxes hugely, causing job loses, the economy would take a huge hit.

You’d be taxing an additional 1.8 million people and the northern Irish health system would remain in place. The entire population of NI isn’t on the dole! It would need to become more economically productive and it quite possibly could be as it would suddenly have access to the IDA, the 12.5% corporation tax, the whole infrastructure of the republic’s investment machinery.

You seem to be assuming that they just close all the NI hospitals and other infrastructure, lay off all the staff and then load 1.8 million people into the republic’s system. That simply wouldn’t happen.

Taytoland

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

The fact that...

A UI wouldn't happen overnight and it wouldn't be an exercise in absorbing the north with all its baggage in one fell swoop.

But it would literally change everything from economic outlook from the present government, managing a health service with a huge amount of people having to then join it and then you have the actual voting landscape. You would have something like 20% of the electorate having a fundamental say on the politics of the Dail.

EdgeCase

It wouldn’t be an simple integration. I would suspect you’d end up with a federal Ireland.

LincolnsBeard

RobertKK wrote: »

48% are our friends, the others caused much unneeded problems for everyone, and if we are bullying them over Brexit, tough, I heard a Brexit supporter on TV say how the British empire was a good thing and I think there is a section of Brexit with that mentality.
Down through the centuries our allies have been on the continent, not Britain.
I don't think Brexit was the actions of a friend, they forgot we existed when they were debating about a bus slogan.
They jumped off a cliff and if we have to bully them to avoid them dragging us down with them, so be it.
They have the most idiotic government on this continent.

Ireland is a cuck nation afraid to run its own affairs.

I don't wish to sound rude, but you massively overestimate your importance in affairs such as these.

EdgeCase

EdgeCase wrote: »

Great rebuttal there! Well done. You must be proud.
You have not actually countered any of my points.

In my experience of having lived in the UK I have always found it has a completely confused sense of national identity. I’ve found a lot of English people disown Northern Ireland either due to ignorance or because they want to distance themselves from it when it’s doing something awkwardly embarrassing and it *is* a modern country bolted to a legacy system that included an actual formalised class system and an archaic mess in the upper house, that literally does include all the bishops of the Church of England.

How can it be a formalized class system when quite literally anyone can become a member of the House of Lords? Or are you still under the uneducated belief that all Lords are hereditary land owners?

EdgeCase wrote: »

the periphery is very much ignored in debate, as there’s no federal system and a kind of weird mishmash of very recent devolution.

the uk isn’t a federal state, it doesn’t pretend to be. Peripheral parts of all countries get ignored, or are you trying to claim that Donegal and Dublin are treated equally here?

EdgeCase wrote: »

You’ve also got NI running as a political system in parallel with different parties in Westminster, and Scotland moving that way with the rise of the SNP which is quite an odd setup.

I do find it’s an odd mix of a modern democracy bolted to a class system and the remnants of an aristocratic system.

The single biggest mess in Brexit has been caused by a mass assumption that the EU border was in Dover not on the Irish border, as it’s not in England.

You can get angry about that being pointed out, but it’s fact.

I’m not angry about it at all, just pointing out that you are talking ****e. You come from from a small country with a simple and somewhat inept) political system. The uk is far bigger and has a more complex system thanks to the diverse nature that is present in larger economies.

EdgeCase

Yeah, Ireland's simple and inept and the UK's amazing and brilliant.

UK 20th century internal issues:

Northern Ireland troubles and the lead up to them, 1976 IMF bailout following several years of economic chaos (e.g. 24.20% inflation in 1975). It really wasn't too far removed from what's going on in Italy today in many ways. 1980s violent strikes ultimately culminating in the poll tax riots by the the end of Thatcher's era. 2008 banking collapse which mirrors exactly what happened here and also caused by light touch regulation and failure to catch what was going on, leading to a vast state bailout and nationalisation of several banks and one of the largest corporate failures in history .... and now Brexit.

I really don't think you've any right to be finger wagging and lecturing just because someone's dared to critique the UK from the rather close perspective of next-door.

Also, I'm not saying Ireland's perfect. I have and will continue to critique all sorts of stuff here too. I just think sometimes you have to stand back and look at what you're actually dealing with and set aside patriotism, exceptionalism and revisionism.

An Claidheamh

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Ireland is a cuck nation afraid to run its own affairs.

I don't wish to sound rude, but you massively overestimate your importance in affairs such as these.

Says the "country" actually incapable of leaving the EU and who want Ireland to fix Britain's border problem????
Are you all so deluded?

Incidentally, we never asked to manage your affairs.
We didn't vote to leave the EU.
Your soldiers are the ones terrified of policing a border.

At the end of the day, Britain will have a humiliating climb down.

You Brexiteers are delinquents, you don't know what you're doing and the whole world knows it.

If the Brits had any dignity left they'd scrap the whole thing.

Grayson

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Ireland is a cuck nation afraid to run its own affairs.

I don't wish to sound rude, but you massively overestimate your importance in affairs such as these.

I don't know if you know how the EU works. We'll have a final vote on any brexit deal. Just like every other country in Europe. If we disagree, that's all that matters.

the UK however has to come up with a deal that's acceptable to every state in Europe. Even the devolved ones. And you saw how hard it was to get the Canada deal through.

Britain is fcuked.

An Claidheamh

Aegir wrote: »

How can it be a formalized class system when quite literally anyone can become a member of the House of Lords? Or are you still under the uneducated belief that all Lords are hereditary land owners?

the uk isn’t a federal state, it doesn’t pretend to be. Peripheral parts of all countries get ignored, or are you trying to claim that Donegal and Dublin are treated equally here?



I’m not angry about it at all, just pointing out that you are talking ****e. You come from from a small country with a simple and somewhat inept) political system. The uk is far bigger and has a more complex system thanks to the diverse nature that is present in larger economies.

Oh dear.

You're actually defending the class system, privilege and think it's due to it's "diverse" nature?

I'm sorry Aegir but you must be backward to believe in that nonsense.

You're why Brexit happened.

You cannot fix yourselves so you blame the EU.

With that jingoistic attitude, and when the UK economy tanks, Britain will be a nation of cap doffing chimney sweeps with more inequality, more ignorance and a lower quality of life.

Who will they blame for that?

Immigrants? The EU? Scotland?

EdgeCase

Aegir: I'd also point out that I have lived in England. I am partly English and I have a ton of English relatives, including people who've been involved in English and UK politics.

I'm very fond of many aspects of England and I have a lot of attachment to the place but it doesn't mean that I just think everything's perfect - It's a real country run by humans, so of course it isn't perfect. There will always be flaws. There'll always be blindness to problems, poorly structured systems, legacies of systems that plainly don't work very well and all of that.

There's another side to England that's all about vibrancy, open mindedness, progressive thinking and unfortunately that's drowning in this bitter, twisted, jingoistic mess. I sincerely hope it manages to find a life raft fairly soon as otherwise, I just feel that England and the UK is in for a pretty unpleasant decade and a long period of trying to undo a lot of damage.

Hopefully some kind of common sense outcome prevails in the end and this sorry saga is consigned to the history books, along with Donald Trump.

eeguy

A handover would not be immediate. It would take at least a decade of piecemeal transfer to an Irish system.
Maybe something similar to how Hong Kong was transferred.

EdgeCase

EdgeCase wrote: »

Yeah, Ireland's simple and inept and the UK's amazing and brilliant.

I didn’t say that though did I.

EdgeCase wrote: »

UK 20th century internal issues:

Northern Ireland troubles and the lead up to them, 1976 IMF bailout following several years of economic chaos (e.g. 24.20% inflation in 1975). It really wasn't too far removed from what's going on in Italy today in many ways. 1980s violent strikes ultimately culminating in the poll tax riots by the the end of Thatcher's era. 2008 banking collapse which mirrors exactly what happened here and also caused by light touch regulation and failure to catch what was going on, leading to a vast state bailout and nationalisation of several banks and one of the largest corporate failures in history .... and now Brexit.

I really don't think you've any right to be finger wagging and lecturing just because someone's dared to critique the UK from the rather close perspective of next-door.

Err you’re the one finger pointing, not me. You are bringing up an event that happened over 40 years ago and trying to make it relevant? Jesus, you are desperate for a few thanks aren’t you.

EdgeCase wrote: »

Also, I'm not saying Ireland's perfect. I have and will continue to critique all sorts of stuff here too. I just think sometimes you have to stand back and look at what you're actually dealing with and set aside patriotism, exceptionalism and revisionism.

Which would be fine, if you were actually correct, but you’re not, you’re talking ****e.