Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

eddhorse

I am happy i got the tethered charger on the side of the house.
Some morning the cable is soaking from rain, do people dry them off before putting them in the boot?

loopymum

KCross wrote: »

That wouldnt be for me anyway. Too much hassle in wet, windy weather everyday. The few hundred would be money well spent and could be sold again later so not really a few hundred at all when it has resale value.

After just over 2 weeks with the leaf, I haven't unplugged the granny cable I'm currently using in over 12 days as it would just be a head wreck, I would definitely have to buy another cable to save my sanity. Nearest fast charger to me is 40 miles away so keeping AC cable and granny charger in the car when I get wall point installed is essential, when I go visit family over Christmas I will have to take the granny cable, can't wait to get my wall charge now.

MJohnston

eddhorse wrote: »

I am happy i got the tethered charger on the side of the house.
Some morning the cable is soaking from rain, do people dry them off before putting them in the boot?

No need to with the BMW, as it goes in the bonnet storage space instead. The cable we got with our i3 is also very waterproof too, in the sense that it never gets all that wet (water seems to just run right off it). And that has definitely been tested over the last month or so!

I’d say if you have room for a tethered unit, and don’t need to worry about upgrading it to a different type in future, it’s the best bet. But in fairness, the user was asking specifically about untethered.

MJohnston

😂 I guess the i3 has me spoiled by only needing charged over a week

digiman

Where have people being buying the Zappi v2 from and how much did you pay?

Is the only advantage over the Tesla charger that you can use power from your PVs?

KCross

digiman wrote: »

Is the only advantage over the Tesla charger that you can use power from your PVs?

No, it also has load limiting capability AND load balancing which means you don’t need a priority switch if you have other high power devices like an electric shower or a 2nd EV.

digiman

KCross wrote: »

No, it also has load limiting capability AND load balancing which means you don’t need a priority switch if you have other high power devices like an electric shower or a 2nd EV.

Don't and won't have electric showers, a 2nd EV in a couple of years time is very possible though. Thanks

Any ideas on best place to purchase?

KCross

digiman wrote: »

Any ideas on best place to purchase?

electricautos.ie

Or direct from manufacturer myenergi.com

turnfan

digiman wrote: »

Don't and won't have electric showers, a 2nd EV in a couple of years time is very possible though. Thanks

Any ideas on best place to purchase?

I got mine via Darkin Electrical who sourced it from the UK directly, as part of the installation job.

They are like hens teeth though.

eamon_l

KCross wrote: »

electricautos.ie

Or direct from manufacturer myenergi.com

I bought direct in October, won't be delivered until end of January 2020. I purchased a hub too so I can monitor my energy levels from grid and solar

Mc-BigE

the tesla wall charger is cheaper (530 euros) than the Zappi 2 (880 euros)

does the tesla wall charger have load limiting capability also?

KCross

Mc-BigE wrote: »

the tesla wall charger is cheaper (530 euros) than the Zappi 2 (880 euros)

does the tesla wall charger have load limiting capability also?

Yes and No!

The last time I looked it had the ability to do load limiting across two Tesla wall connectors but it is done via a hard limit set at install time. It doesnt do it by sensing the whole house load.

So, if you installed two 32A Tesla wall connectors you could set a combined limit of, say, 48A and between the two of them they would ensure they dont use more than that. Thats somewhat useful but not nearly as useful as a charge point that will dynamically sense the whole house load in real time and limit the charge rate as you turn other devices on/off.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Yes and No!

The last time I looked it had the ability to do load limiting across two Tesla wall connectors but it is done via a hard limit set at install time. It doesnt do it by sensing the whole house load.

So, if you installed two 32A Tesla wall connectors you could set a combined limit of, say, 48A and between the two of them they would ensure they dont use more than that. Thats somewhat useful but not nearly as useful as a charge point that will dynamically sense the whole house load in real time and limit the charge rate as you turn other devices on/off.

Is the zappi the best device to do whole load balancing? I think the garo can as well but not sure of the price

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

Is the zappi the best device to do whole load balancing? I think the garo can as well but not sure of the price

Based on current tech and charge points available the Zappi has it all (load balancing, realtime load limiting, SolarPV integration, app support and a bunch of other features).

I dont think any other device has it all, but not everyone needs all that stuff so it depends on your needs.

The Garo has an optional accessory that allows it to sense whole house load (although appears to only go to 63A, some people have 80A+ capable houses) and will do load balacing and limiting, so you need to add that accessory to the price. I dont know how much the garo's are.

Dardania

KCross wrote: »

Based on current tech and charge points available the Zappi has it all (load balancing, realtime load limiting, SolarPV integration, app support and a bunch of other features).

I dont think any other device has it all, but not everyone needs all that stuff so it depends on your needs.

The Garo has an optional accessory that allows it to sense whole house load (although appears to only go to 63A, some people have 80A+ capable houses) and will do load balacing and limiting, so you need to add that accessory to the price. I dont know how much the garo's are.

It's definately a need product - for now I'm satisfied with something simple (such as the Rolec), as I somehow feel a step change will occur in future.

With the Zappi, in your experience how quickly does it load balance - is it fast enough that you wouldn't need a shower priority unit for example?


In other news, just saw this announced:

https://www.engadget.com/2020/01/08/the-quasar-home-ev-charger-can-power-your-car-and-your-house/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkbHkuY29tL2kvY29sbGVjdGlvbi9jb250ZW50L3VzZXIvYjI4M2I0MDYtNTA4Yy00YWRhLTg2OGEtZmQ0YmIyOThkMTBmL2NhdGVnb3J5L2dsb2JhbC5hbGw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFCT32qsH_-GKwPTlROJ6rKoA2YVP66VsA-ICCxpDJwFDxZQzoLXRO2JXPdz_pS_kcSBjCn22u37tWpnWZkqGEHQklOXoFpzpBao370FhVRfL-kSsCn44Kb1sK7fXkf0BvZJNLhFSs40ckXgBR-OTmw4PmVu6uLV0ME8ENn-Lhwa

Power typically only flows in one direction when it comes to charging electric vehicles at home: from the base station into the car. However the Quasar system from Wallbox can push power both ways, either into the vehicle or back into the base station and onto the local utility grid. And now it's coming to America.

Bidirectional charging in and of itself is an existing technology, albeit one that required industrial-sized charging stations and normally only used in large vehicle fleets. Wallbox has taken that technology and miniaturized it, shrinking the charging system into a form factor that fits in your house. The Quasar is Level 2 charger, meaning it pumps 240 volts, and is compatible with vehicles leveraging Type 1 connectors as well as the CHAdeMO style that Tesla prefers.

Since your electric vehicle is essentially a giant battery mounted on wheels, it can easily serve as an emergency or alternative power supply for your home -- assuming you can manage to extract it from the vehicle. And that's exactly what the Quasar does. Users can pull charge from the car and use it to run household appliances (even washers and dryers), thereby reducing their draw from the local grid. This is especially helpful for people living in areas with variable electricity pricing -- charge up the car when prices are low, and discharge it for household purposes (or sell it back to your utility) when prices are high.

Unfortunately, only the Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi Engelberg Tourer are currently capable of utilizing bidirectional charging but bidirectional charging has the potential to revolutionize both the EV and renewable energy industries, should it gain widespread adoption.

Interestingly, it seems to use Chademo (so DC) to support bidirectional flow... Guess the inverter in the car can't run in reverse. Wonder does that push up the QC counter in Leaf Spy?

KCross

Dardania wrote: »

It's definately a need product - for now I'm satisfied with something simple (such as the Rolec), as I somehow feel a step change will occur in future.

What step change do you foresee?

Dardania wrote: »

With the Zappi, in your experience how quickly does it load balance - is it fast enough that you wouldn't need a shower priority unit for example?

The whole point of it is to remove the need for a priority switch. If that wasnt working people would be complaining!

It also uses load sensing to divert excess Solar and that also has to be realtime so it does work.

Dardania wrote: »

In other news, just saw this announced:

Interestingly, it seems to use Chademo (so DC) to support bidirectional flow... Guess the inverter in the car can't run in reverse. Wonder does that push up the QC counter in Leaf Spy?

The Leaf, even Gen 1 Leafs, have always supported bi-directional current flow via the CHAdeMO port. There are projects in the UK using it for a while now.

CCS cars dont support it commercially yet and are a few years away from it so I presume that charge point will only work if you have and keep a Leaf. If you change the car to a CCS car down the line it may not support it.

zg3409

digiman wrote: »

Where have people being buying the Zappi v2 from and how much did you pay?

Is the only advantage over the Tesla charger that you can use power from your PVs?

I believe the advantages of the Tesla are that it can do 3 phase (mainly business users), Tesla is tethered only , also I believe the Tesla has a special button on the plug which opens the charge port on the car and stops the charge so you can unplug. I believe (but I am not sure) that with a Zappi and a Tesla car, you need to open charge port from dash or app, but cannot do it on car remote. To remove cable again you need to use app or car dash and cannot use car remote. In that case if I did not have an instant shower and I planned on not getting solar panels and I planned getting a Tesla I would use a Tesla charger.

Load balancing is important in Ireland as we have a lot of instant showers and the typical supply to Irish houses (versus UK and USA) has a small esb fuse and has problems with an EV and an instant shower.

KCross

zg3409 wrote: »

I believe the advantages of the Tesla are that it can do 3 phase (mainly business users),

Most other charge points come in 3-phase options also, so thats not unique in any way.

zg3409 wrote: »

I believe the Tesla has a special button on the plug which opens the charge port on the car and stops the charge so you can unplug.

True, the Tesla charge point does have that alright but obviously only works if you have a Tesla car.

zg3409 wrote: »

I believe (but I am not sure) that with a Zappi and a Tesla car, you need to open charge port from dash or app, but cannot do it on car remote. To remove cable again you need to use app or car dash and cannot use car remote.

Usually when a car is charged you just pull out the cable and flip the hatch closed. You dont typically need the keys unless you have it set to stay locked to the car (which is configurable).

Would be interested to hear from Tesla owners whether the lack of that button would be a deal breaker or not in relation to picking a charge point. Its useful Im sure but would it be a deal breaker is the thing.

zg3409 wrote: »

In that case if I did not have an instant shower and I planned on not getting solar panels and I planned getting a Tesla I would use a Tesla charger.

Load balancing is important in Ireland as we have a lot of instant showers and the typical supply to Irish houses (versus UK and USA) has a small esb fuse and has problems with an EV and an instant shower.

It isnt just instant showers either. Other high power devices like a heat pump, oven, 2nd EV and future proofing.


At the end of the day these charge points are just fancy sockets. Get the one that suits your needs keeping an eye on your future needs too.

Dempsey

Is there a handy way of calculating the losses between the fuse board and the chargepoint? Even rough %

Fuseboard - 15m - Consumer Unit - 5m - Charge Point

KCross

Dempsey wrote: »

Is there a handy way of calculating the losses between the fuse board and the chargepoint? Even rough %

Fuseboard - 15m - Consumer Unit - 5m - Charge Point

Are you referring to voltage drop or heat losses and hence money on your bill?

If it’s the latter it will be irrelevant. The losses in the charger in the car is where the vast majority of the losses reside to you. Can be anywhere from 85-95% efficient.

DublinDilbert

A fuse board and consumer unit are normally the same thing, I assume you mean the Esbn meter is 15m from the consumer unit.

Yes if you know the cable cross section you can calculate the losses.

Power in Watts = I^2 x R


Say assume your meter tails are 16sq and charge point is wired with a 6sq cable.

1.1m x 15 x 2 = 33m ohms
2.9 x 5 x 2 = 29m ohms

0.062 x current * current = power loss in watts

Dempsey

KCross wrote: »

Are you referring to voltage drop or heat losses and hence money on your bill?

If it’s the latter it will be irrelevant. The losses in the charger in the car is where the vast majority of the losses reside to you. Can be anywhere from 85-95% efficient.

Checked the cables and breakers for heat, they are roughly at ambient temperature when charging so I'll go with potential voltage drops

If most of the losses are there then i'll be happy. Just wanted to know the losses before the chargepoint given the distance. By my calculations, the car is being blamed for the high xmas electricity bill. I'm confident that what the chargepoint is saying that its using is within 10% tolerance of the real cost.

DublinDilbert wrote: »

A fuse board and consumer unit are normally the same thing, I assume you mean the Esbn meter is 15m from the consumer unit.

Yes if you know the cable cross section you can calculate the losses.

Power in Watts = I^2 x R


Say assume your meter tails are 16sq and charge point is wired with a 6sq cable.

1.1m x 15 x 2 = 33m ohms
2.9 x 5 x 2 = 29m ohms

0.062 x current * current = power loss in watts

They can be the same thing but in this instance they are not

ESB Meter -3m- Main Fuseboard - 15m - Consumer Unit (Garage) - 5m - Charge Point (Back of Garage)

From the Fuseboard, 10sq cable is used

Thanks for the info

I'm thinking of reducing the current from 32A to 16A just to minimise losses as small as they are, further

graememk

Dempsey wrote: »

I'm thinking of reducing the current from 32A to 16A just to minimise losses as small as they are, further

In cable losses in the cable your chatting only about 40w per hour when drawing 32A

so instead of drawing 7200w in an hour, its 7240w. (yes dropping to 16A will drop the loss by a quarter but its still negligible )
the charger will have some useage to run its electronics (couple of watts)

Your down the wrong rabbit hole, the biggest "loss" would be the charger in the car or even preheating the car.

Dempsey

graememk wrote: »

In cable losses in the cable your chatting only about 40w per hour when drawing 32A

so instead of drawing 7200w in an hour, its 7240w. (yes dropping to 16A will drop the loss by a quarter but its still negligible )
the charger will have some useage to run its electronics (couple of watts)

Your down the wrong rabbit hole, the biggest "loss" would be the charger in the car or even preheating the car.

Im not down any rabbit hole, its about quantifying the losses and the relative differences between each part of the system

Whats the typical resistance through a 40a breaker?

graememk

Dempsey wrote: »

Im not down any rabbit hole, its about quantifying the losses and the relative differences between each part of the system

Whats the typical resistance through a 40a breaker?

Found a data sheet for a random breaker, your chatting 3ish watts at nominal current. Haven't found a sheet showing resistances but by design it should be as low as possible

KCross

Dempsey wrote: »

By my calculations, the car is being blamed for the high xmas electricity bill. I'm confident that what the chargepoint is saying that its using is within 10% tolerance of the real cost.

It does sound like you are down a rabbit hole tbh.

Whatever the car is using it’s using and there isn’t much you can do to improve that.

The high bill could be that you did more driving, more cooking, estimated bill etc. It’s not that the charging losses have suddenly changed. They are what they are.

User1998

Does a home charge point use much electricity after its done charging the car while it’s still turned on and plugged into the car? I have a PHEV so it could be plugged in for like 16 hours but only be charging for an hour or so. Thanks

stimpson

User1998 wrote: »

Does a home charge point use much electricity after its done charging the car while it’s still turned on plugged in but not actually charging. I have a phev so it could be plugged in for like 16 hours sometimes but only be charging for an hour or so. Thanks

Zappis standby power consumption is 1W, so very very little. A year of standby is the equivalent of 1 hour charging at 7kW.

Mc-BigE

could i get a Zappi charger (future proofing for Tesla M3) now privately for a plug in hybrid car that the misses is thinking of buying, and still get the SEAI grant? ( can the car be a UK import or irish second hand)


the Tesla model 3 would be a company purchase

thanks

stimpson

Mc-BigE wrote: »

could i get a Zappi charger (future proofing for Tesla M3) now privately for a plug in hybrid car that the misses is thinking of buying, and still get the SEAI grant? ( can the car be a UK import or irish second hand)


the Tesla model 3 would be a company purchase

thanks

Yes. Once you’ve bought the PHEV you can apply for the grant. U.K. import is not a problem.