Irexit party yay or nay?

prawnsambo

sink wrote: »

TL;DR The EU, Varadkar & co. can sing in a uniform chorus all they like, but in reality can do sweet f*ck all to transfer tax policy powers to the EU. You along with every Irish citizen in the country will first have to vote by a majority for it. Fat chance of that happening.

Add to that the fact that our tax rate is intended to attract FDI from companies who want a presence in the EU. Take away our membership of the EU and it doesn't matter what tax rate we have, we'll be just one more small country to fly over on the way to the EU.

An Ciarraioch

They botched their registration as a party by failing to tick a box!

http://twitter.com/AarRogan/status/1113035286131421184

Loafing Oaf

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Has to be remembered this is from 2008 when no-one would have believed it was possible to get any country to actually leave the EU.
So even if your aim was to cause the break-up of the EU, then back then it would make sense to approach it from a position of 'the EU is great, but maybe lets not allow it go any further, even roll it back a bit, and a bit more'.

He seemed to be sincere and consistent in what he was saying, to me anyway, but it was probably too nuanced for the angry anti-establishment vote he was courting.

An Ciarraioch

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

He seemed to be sincere and consistent in what he was saying, to me anyway, but it was probably too nuanced for the angry anti-establishment vote he was courting.

He had built up alliances with a number of European parties, the most prominent of which being Ciudadanos, who were just a Catalan unionist party at that time.

micosoft

Eric Cartman wrote: »

While I think youve made a good post , and most of it is above board. Conflating border control with racism is just lazy and wrong.

and while we may preserve our ability to set tax rates , there is definitely pressure from the EU to up the corporation tax and you can bet you'd see their might if we ever dared lower it.

We'd be under far more pressure from Corporation Tax if we were outside. In fact we'd just be listed as a tax haven. Given the

The point stands on borders - it's being used as code for racism. I really can't see that EU resident migration into Ireland has been anything other than a huge success on socio-economic grounds. They don't put much if any pressure on services and deliver massive additional capacity - our entire care sector is dependent on EU migrants . It really takes a weird type of racism that thinks educated hardworking EU migrants should be locked out as it would not benefit the country in any way. It is lazy and wrong to ascribe immigration as causing any societal issues in Ireland.

Panrich

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

He seemed to be sincere and consistent in what he was saying, to me anyway, but it was probably too nuanced for the angry anti-establishment vote he was courting.

He was like a modern day carpetbagger when he gatecrashed every election around that time. All shine but no substance.

expectationlost

still no sign of Irexit party being registered https://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/currentissues/Ir120419.pdf

ancapailldorcha

Mod: We have a thread specifically for Muslim immigration. Can we keep that there please.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: We have a thread specifically for Muslim immigration. Can we keep that there please.

Off topic posts deleted.

Kermit.de.frog

These parties need to be watched in the coming years as Irish people see their sovereignty gradually wittled away. They will grow.

There are things not being said now in the fog of Brexit that need to be said in relation to EU integration and what is ahead.


Tax issues and military issues are going to come to the fore.


Just wait until France not only hands it's security council seat to the EU but also shares and further develops it's nuclear arsenal as an EU deterrent. This is coming within the next 5 years.


Irish people are blinded and many don't seem to have the courage to talk about these things because Brexit is ongoing.

Loafing Oaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

These parties need to be watched in the coming years as Irish people see their sovereignty gradually wittled away. They will grow.

Will believe it when I see it. Irish people have shown no inclination to vote for these sorts of parties in general elections up to now, even when 'euroscepticism' was apparently thriving around the Nice and Lisbon referendums.

Wanderer78

Loafing Oaf wrote:

Will believe it when I see it. Irish people have shown no inclination to vote for these sorts of parties up to now, even when 'euroscepticism' was apparently thriving around the Nice and Lisbon referendums.

They will get votes of course, but nothing that will cause concern, for the moment

is_that_so

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

These parties need to be watched in the coming years as Irish people see their sovereignty gradually wittled away. They will grow.

Irish people are blinded and many don't seem to have the courage to talk about these things because Brexit is ongoing.

Because of Brexit, support for an EU exit is now down to about 8% with a high of 10%. There is no real scope for a single issue party like this at national level and the Euros have too few seats.

is_that_so

Wanderer78 wrote: »

They will get votes of course, but nothing that will cause concern, for the moment

They'll be down in the no expenses bunch at election time.

johnnyskeleton

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tax issues and military issues are going to come to the fore.

Just wait until France not only hands it's security council seat to the EU but also shares and further develops it's nuclear arsenal as an EU deterrent. This is coming within the next 5 years.

Irish people are blinded and many don't seem to have the courage to talk about these things because Brexit is ongoing.

Just on these two issues, are they necessarily a bad thing? Im not best pleased with how Ireland is run as a quasi tax haven for large multinationals. Low corporate tax rates of 12.5% are great for investment and make Ireland attractive, but the companies based here but not even paying that due to transfer pricing etc is something that could be looked at. If everywhere stops the double irish, dutch sandwich style tax avoidance then it would be reasonable to expect a lot of the multinationals would still stay here. And if they move their brass plaque activities elsewhere, it will reduce Irish GDP but wont necessarily affect the operational side e.g. the people who work for google in Dublin.

Not saying its all rosy, but it is something we should probably engage with as a modern nation.

On the EU army, 10 years ago Id be instinctively against this and am still mostly against it. However, we now have an increasingly hostile nation sharing a land border with us, Russia is a big concern for most Europeans and terrorism hasnt exactly gone away. Ireland has some excellent military staff e.g. the Rangers, but we are lacking in anything that could seriously deter a hostile invasion. Maybe French and German fighter jets patrolling our airspace and having a permanent say on the security council would not be a bad thing.

Ireland has been proud of its neutrality in the last century. But whenever we are under threat we rely on the French, Spanish and Germans to help us fight foreign aggressors. I dont see any problem with developing greater links with our allies if its in the interests of self defence.

Obviously I wouldnt be happy with Irish forces or a European Union army being involved in an aggressive foreign war. But the fear of that unlikely future scenario shouldnt deter us from taking practical steps to secure the country in these uncertain times.

Wanderer78

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Just on these two issues, are they necessarily a bad thing? Im not best pleased with how Ireland is run as a quasi tax haven for large multinationals. Low corporate tax rates of 12.5% are great for investment and make Ireland attractive, but the companies based here but not even paying that due to transfer pricing etc is something that could be looked at. If everywhere stops the double irish, dutch sandwich style tax avoidance then it would be reasonable to expect a lot of the multinationals would still stay here. And if they move their brass plaque activities elsewhere, it will reduce Irish GDP but wont necessarily affect the operational side e.g. the people who work for google in Dublin.

We have to start addressing the fact we re a tax haven for multinationals, but by looks of it, the EU is gonna force us to address this

johnnyskeleton

Wanderer78 wrote: »

We have to start addressing the fact we re a tax haven for multinationals, but by looks of it, the EU is gonna force us to address this

Ok, I suppose a follow up question is whether Irish people feel like some British people that it doesnt matter whether something is good or bad, so long as it is their own national decision rather than being a requirement of an supranational government?

For me, there is logic to these things being done at an international level. It means that we stop undercutting other countries but they cant undercut us either

PeadarCo

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

These parties need to be watched in the coming years as Irish people see their sovereignty gradually wittled away. They will grow.

The biggest lie of leaving the EU is "taking back control/sovereignty". With Brexit the UK is losing control of its trade affairs. The UK has two options either stay as part of the EU and maintain the control of it's trade relations. Or it can leave and will end up having regulations enforced on the country by either the EU, US, China, India and what ever other trade block the UK is forced to deal with.

Even over the last few weeks the UKs economy was in the hands of the EU. Now fortunately for the UK a no deal would be a bad thing for countries like Ireland in the EU so there is some incentive to compromise. Now does anyone honestly think that the UK(or Ireland for that matter in a similar situation) will actually do any better when dealing with other trade blocks.

Kermit.de.frog

is_that_so wrote: »

Because of Brexit, support for an EU exit is now down to about 8% with a high of 10%. There is no real scope for a single issue party like this at national level and the Euros have too few seats.

It won't stay that way. Bury your head in the sand but once people see what they will be asked to give with the next treaty I guarantee opinions will be shifting quick fast.

We will need to make a decision.

Either we are a sovereign, independent country or we are not.

That's what it will come down to ultimately.

That choice is coming.

PeadarCo

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

Either we are a sovereign, independent country or we are not.

How does being in or out of the EU impact any of that? The UK will have far more control over it's laws if it stays in the EU. If it leaves it pretty much will have to deal with whatever the EU, US, China etc decide.

Kermit.de.frog

The idea that a country in Europe must be in the EU to prosper is complete nonsense.

PeadarCo

Kermit.de.frog wrote:

The idea that a country in Europe must be in the EU to prosper is complete nonsense.

Could you give an example of a prosperous country in Europe that's no a micro state or not part of the EU or it's various compentents. For example Norway, Switzerland and Turkey while not part of the EU are engaged with either the Single market or customs Union. All which involve giving up an element of sovereignty. This dilemma is what has brought the UK to deadlock.

is_that_so

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It won't stay that way. Bury your head in the sand but once people see what they will be asked to give with the next treaty I guarantee opinions will be shifting quick fast.

We will need to make a decision.

Either we are a sovereign, independent country or we are not.

That's what it will come down to ultimately.

That choice is coming.

What treaty and what will we be asked to do? I doubt you can guarantee much of anything with all this very vague expostulating.

is_that_so

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The idea that a country in Europe must be in the EU to prosper is complete nonsense.

Why? Just because you say so?

Loafing Oaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It won't stay that way. Bury your head in the sand but once people see what they will be asked to give with the next treaty I guarantee opinions will be shifting quick fast.

We will need to make a decision.

Either we are a sovereign, independent country or we are not.

That's what it will come down to ultimately.

That choice is coming.

We heard all this scaremongering in the run-up to previous European referenda. And people bought it to the extent that they voted down two of those referenda. Still had no effect on the makeup of the Dail.

is_that_so

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

We heard all this scaremongering in the run-up to previous European referenda. And people bought it to the extent that they voted down two of those referenda. Still had no effect on the makeup of the Dail.

That was more the make-up of the Dail not bothering to explain what they were about.

rogue-entity

I'll take the bait.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Irish people are blinded and many don't seem to have the courage to talk about these things

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Bury your head in the sand but once people see what they will be asked to give with the next treaty I guarantee opinions will be shifting quick fast.

Would you be so kind as not to try speaking on behalf of [all] Irish people, we didn't elect you to do so. Accusing some of us of being "blinded" or "burying our heads in the sand" is both disrespectful and arrogant. Might it just occur to you that some, if not many, of us: understand the benefits that we gain from our EU membership, enjoy the rights and privileges that come with such membership, enjoy the wealth and economic opportunity provided by foreign investment and would like to maintain the status quo.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Either we are a sovereign, independent country or we are not.

We are a sovereign and independent country, unless and until, we vote to give that up. Any change would require a referendum as our parliament is not sovereign but derives its power from the people. Additionally, I'd personally take economic prosperity and financial security over "sovereignty" any day of the week; the former pays my bills, the latter won't keep a roof over my head.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The idea that a country in Europe must be in the EU to prosper is complete nonsense.

Corollary: The idea that a country with a population of 5m people, dependant upon FDI and non-intensive agriculture can prosper outside the EU is complete nonsense.

Eric Cartman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The idea that a country in Europe must be in the EU to prosper is complete nonsense.

but the idea that it cant prosper and maintain control in the EU is also nonsense.

Poland kept the muslims out
we keep our low corporate tax
germany kept its autobahns
you can still smoke in pubs in some countries

like whatever most brexiteers say 'yeah we'll have this back' is likely a local law.
I would love the EU to go back to being the EEC and its limits again , and things like PESCO are a concern, but being in the EU is no reason to not have most things and its no reason to throw the toys out of the pram.

Ron86r

Eric Cartman wrote: »

but the idea that it cant prosper and maintain control in the EU is also nonsense.

Poland kept the muslims out
we keep our low corporate tax
germany kept its autobahns
you can still smoke in pubs in some countries

like whatever most brexiteers say 'yeah we'll have this back' is likely a local law.
I would love the EU to go back to being the EEC and its limits again , and things like PESCO are a concern, but being in the EU is no reason to not have most things and its no reason to throw the toys out of the pram.

A country can prosper in the EU, but our total inability to control the levers of finance means you will prosper for as long as the global economy prospers. Instead of being able to introduce some quantive easing, printing money if necessary, we had to cut our spending across the board when the GFC struck.

Ultimately countries will, and have, acted in their own self interest in Europe. Monetary decisions are made centrally and, based on what I have read, there is little transparency in this regard.

What we have to ask our selves is whether this system is to our benefit or our detriment. Even if we think it is of financial benefit is it a system we want to oeprate within, one that seems very undemocratic.

Eric Cartman

Ron86r wrote: »

A country can prosper in the EU, but our total inability to control the levers of finance means you will prosper for as long as the global economy prospers. Instead of being able to introduce some quantive easing, printing money if necessary, we had to cut our spending across the board when the GFC struck.

Ultimately countries will, and have, acted in their own self interest in Europe. Monetary decisions are made centrally and, based on what I have read, there is little transparency in this regard.

What we have to ask our selves is whether this system is to our benefit or our detriment. Even if we think it is of financial benefit is it a system we want to oeprate within, one that seems very undemocratic.

Thats what countries should be doing. QE is a terrible way to print your way out of debt. Austerity works, every single time and should be the default position when the economy declines.