Irexit party yay or nay?

Balanadan

People advocating for Irexit, and I don't actually know of anyone who does (because let's be honest, it's nonsense), are a threat to our society, our prosperity, our freedom, our national security, and themselves.

Hotblack Desiato

They're clearly doing the bidding of a hostile foreign power.

In other words, traitors.

WinnyThePoo

How's their leader doing these days?. He blocked me on twitter for asking where his funding comes from.

Just saw on the politic cafe thread they've already put forward a fake candidate. Jesus wept. They have no shame.

Hotblack Desiato

Doubt they'll actually register as a proper political party and open up their funding to scrutiny.

eire4

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Doubt they'll actually register as a proper political party and open up their funding to scrutiny.

I suspect you might very well be correct. Has the vibe of being just another attempt by outside influences to try and hurt the EU. Thankfully there is no real traction at all for this nonsense in the country.

rogue-entity

Balanadan wrote: »

People advocating for Irexit, and I don't actually know of anyone who does (because let's be honest, it's nonsense), are a threat to our society, our prosperity, our freedom, our national security, and themselves.

I can't thank this enough, you summed up my feelings succinctly.

Larbre34

Have to agree. Britain of the last 2 decades, among others, has taught us that ignoring or eye rolling or scoffing at or laughing at or underestimating in any way those forces of the far-right when they are in their awkward infancy is a catastrophic and not easily corrected mistake.

I don't know about any of the rest of you, but I will make it my business to every day stand against the lies, the misinformation, the corrupting influence, the attempts to divide, scare and obscure. Give it no oxygen anytime, anywhere.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

RandomName2 wrote: »

...it won't happen...

The same was said of Brexit, and of Trump being elected. Never underestimate a lunatic.

RobertKK

Irexit for Ireland would be akin to wanting to be back under strong influence from Westminster. It would be a very backward move that most Irish people would not back. Deep down we don't and wouldn't trust the British as we would be putting ourselves under their sphere of influence and it is like in our genetics that we know bad happened with British influence and rule in the past, the famine is like a genetic scar handed down from one generation to the next.
Irexit freedom is an oxymoron. We would be less free with Irexit.
People talk about the EU with Germany and France running the show from Brussels, but where would Ireland be on its own without the other 26 members of the EU up against the UK?
I am not looking to bash the UK, but I don't think many Irish people want to go back to the past. In the EU we don't have to be in a weak position when we can have 26 other nations who we can work with based on common rules for all 27.

Loafing Oaf

Larbre34 wrote: »

But isn't there a danger that taking a strong public "stand against the lies, the misinformation, the corrupting influence, the attempts to divide, scare and obscure" will give oxygen to this tendency, give the impression that they are a sort of 'worthy adversary'? Unless and until they start making serious inroads at the ballot box, might it not be best to ignore/scoff at them?

Hotblack Desiato

No. Stop them making inroads at the ballot box in the first place. Imagine what Libertas or Renua would be like if they had got themselves established. Neither of them had any shortage of money or publicity and this lot don't either.

RobertKK

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No. Stop them making inroads at the ballot box in the first place. Imagine what Libertas or Renua would be like if they had got themselves established. Neither of them had any shortage of money or publicity and this lot don't either.

The thing with Libertas was their leader Declan Ganley is a strong proponent of closer integration and a federal Europe. Which I would argue has a lot of merit.

is_that_so

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

No. Stop them making inroads at the ballot box in the first place. Imagine what Libertas or Renua would be like if they had got themselves established. Neither of them had any shortage of money or publicity and this lot don't either.

Actually they wouldn't have as their policies, by and large, don't have anything to do with people, just all about thing they oppose. Irish political history is littered with failed parties and these are just two more.

force eleven

Balanadan wrote: »

People advocating for Irexit, and I don't actually know of anyone who does (because let's be honest, it's nonsense), are a threat to our society, our prosperity, our freedom, our national security, and themselves.

I'll present myself to the nearest Garda station shall I then thanks? I advocate it, though accept its highly unlikely to happen in the next 20 years bar a monumental economic or social upheaval or event. Therefore I am also a realist. And your opinion is typical of the Sinn Fein, PBP brigade who shut down any type of discourse which disagrees with their own. At best, those who disagree with the degree of EU control over this country, can continue to harry and harass against further control. I'm hoping we keep our tax rates from the hands of Brussels in particular, though that battle will be lost with Varadkar staying in charge.

fash

force eleven wrote: »

I'll present myself to the nearest Garda station shall I then thanks? I advocate it, though accept its highly unlikely to happen in the next 20 years bar a monumental economic or social upheaval or event. Therefore I am also a realist. And your opinion is typical of the Sinn Fein, PBP brigade who shut down any type of discourse which disagrees with their own. At best, those who disagree with the degree of EU control over this country, can continue to harry and harass against further control. I'm hoping we keep our tax rates from the hands of Brussels in particular, though that battle will be lost with Varadkar staying in charge.

And what are you advocating? A "no deal", a Canada FTA, a Norway, Switzerland, Turkey or Ukraine relationship?
What about the downsides with each of those relationships?

What EU "control" do you dislike? What should have been done that was not- out what was done should not have been done?

PeadarCo

fash wrote:

What EU "control" do you dislike? What should have been done that was not- out what was done should not have been done?

Well what brexit has resulted in is Britain losing complete control. Taking back control is the biggest lie relating to Brexit. It's fate is being dictated by the EU and if it leaves the EU it's fate will be dictated by the US China India or whatever superpowers the UK decides to deal with. An Irexit would be just the same. In the EU Ireland has a say. Irexit means losing complete control.

Eric Cartman

Quin_Dub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrexitFreedom/status/1110947134902292480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1110947134902292480&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishexaminer.com%2Fbreakingnews%2Fireland%2Firexit-party-launches-billboard-campaign-across-ireland-914027.html

That poster is just straight up lies..

5 Bullet points about what a ""Normal Self Governing state can control"

Lower Taxation -
100% controlled by the Irish Government , Zero Influence or control by the EU
Job Creation -
100% controlled by the Irish Government , Zero Influence or control by the EU
Trade Globally -
Whilst it's true that the EU manages global trading deals, are the really seriously trying to suggest that Ireland could negotiate better deals on it's own????
Control it's Borders -
The real reason they exist , it's all about keeping out the "others"!!
House it's Families -
Again , 100% controlled by the Irish Government , Zero Influence or control by the EU.

So , in 5 lines of text they've manged 3 outright lies , a unicorn and a little bit of racism for good luck..

Top work..

While I think youve made a good post , and most of it is above board. Conflating border control with racism is just lazy and wrong.

and while we may preserve our ability to set tax rates , there is definitely pressure from the EU to up the corporation tax and you can bet you'd see their might if we ever dared lower it.

Inquitus

This has to be one of the most pointless threads on boards, there is nigh on absolute zero interest in an Irexit in this country, there is not even enough will to elect one TD or Councilor on this sort of platform. This is never going to change in the short to medium term, obviously trying to predict what will happen long term is a fools game, but it seems unlikely we will ever want to leave the EU unless something cataclysmic happens, even at the height of the recession and it's negative impacts support for EU membership remained at around 70%.

Eric Cartman

Inquitus wrote: »

This has to be one of the most pointless threads on boards, there is nigh on absolute zero interest in an Irexit in this country, there is not even enough will to elect one TD or Councilor on this sort of platform. This is never going to change in the short to medium term, obviously trying to predict what will happen long term is a fools game, but it seems unlikely we will ever want to leave the EU unless something cataclysmic happens, even at the height of the recession and it's negative impacts support for EU membership remained at around 70%.

+1 , theres defibitely an appetite to make the EU behave more like the EEC though, leaving is stupid but wanting a curtailment of authority and a reform of the scope of influence is the best way forward, may prevent other nations voting for similar fringe ideas like leaving

Podge_irl

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and while we may preserve our ability to set tax rates , there is definitely pressure from the EU to up the corporation tax and you can bet you'd see their might if we ever dared lower it.

We don't even have the lowest rate in the EU. It is also bonkers to think that the EU wouldn't try to exert pressure on Ireland even if we weren't a member. If anything, by being a member we have the support of other low tax members.

Wanderer78

We do need to start increasing corporate tax rates globally though, in a controlled and measured way

Balanadan

force eleven wrote: »

I'll present myself to the nearest Garda station shall I then thanks? I advocate it, though accept its highly unlikely to happen in the next 20 years bar a monumental economic or social upheaval or event. Therefore I am also a realist. And your opinion is typical of the Sinn Fein, PBP brigade who shut down any type of discourse which disagrees with their own. At best, those who disagree with the degree of EU control over this country, can continue to harry and harass against further control. I'm hoping we keep our tax rates from the hands of Brussels in particular, though that battle will be lost with Varadkar staying in charge.

Sell Irexit to me so. What are the benefits of leaving the EU?

Beechwoodspark

Wouldn’t be in favour of irexit but have no problem with euroscepticism as a political philosophy.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Wouldn’t be in favour of irexit but have no problem with euroscepticism as a political philosophy.

I don't, personally, have an issue with the idea of Euroscepticism as a concept... I think scepticism in general is correct. My issue is with the people who are blindly sceptical of something in the face of evidence to the contrary. Euroscepticism is often supported by feelings rather than facts.

In short, be sceptical of everything, but make evidence-based decisions. With Euroscepticism, people seem to ignore all evidence and have no plausible alternatives to provide.

eire4

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

I don't, personally, have an issue with the idea of Euroscepticism as a concept... I think scepticism in general is correct. My issue is with the people who are blindly sceptical of something in the face of evidence to the contrary. Euroscepticism is often supported by feelings rather than facts.

In short, be sceptical of everything, but make evidence-based decisions. With Euroscepticism, people seem to ignore all evidence and have no plausible alternatives to provide.

Could not agree with you more. Having a certain level of doubt and questioning is a good thing. To blindly follow is of course very unhealthy and flat out dangerous as well. But sadly you are so correct about so much of what passes for the negative attitudes to the EU so much in the way of emotions and feelings and way too little in the way actual facts, evidence and critical reasoning.

sink

force eleven wrote: »

I'm hoping we keep our tax rates from the hands of Brussels in particular, though that battle will be lost with Varadkar staying in charge.

Educate yourself.

Unlike Westminster the Oireachtas is not sovereign.

Bunreacht na hÉireann Article 6.1 states

All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people, whose right it is to designate the rulers of the State and, in final appeal, to decide all questions of national policy, according to the requirements of the common good.

This was reinforced by the Supreme Court ruling on Crotty v. An Taoiseach. Which ruled that the Government/Oireachtas could not enter into an agreement that would transfer executive and legislative power from the organs of the state to another body. And that only an amendment to the constitution could confer that power.

The State's organs cannot contract to exercise in a particular procedure their policy-making roles or in any way to fetter powers bestowed unfettered by the Constitution. They are the guardians of these powers, not the disposers of them.

Paragraph 106 (Hederman J)

The legal situation is clear. The government and/or the houses of the Oireachtas can not confer their power to set tax policy to the institutions of the European Union. Only the people of Ireland by way of a public referendum passing and amendment to the constitution can confer such power.



TL;DR The EU, Varadkar & co. can sing in a uniform chorus all they like, but in reality can do sweet f*ck all to transfer tax policy powers to the EU. You along with every Irish citizen in the country will first have to vote by a majority for it. Fat chance of that happening.

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

The thing with Libertas was their leader Declan Ganley is a strong proponent of closer integration and a federal Europe. Which I would argue has a lot of merit.

Quite the opposite. Ganley and Libertas ran on a strongly anti-EU platform.
Much like UKIP and Farage, they took in lots of money from US and Russian interests to try and limit the strength and cohesion of the EU.

Ganley is a libertarian, and while there's a good debate about the EU's position on international trade, its propensity for regulation is hated by the ultra-rich.

Loafing Oaf

seamus wrote: »

Quite the opposite. Ganley and Libertas ran on a strongly anti-EU platform.

No, Robert is right. This is from their website:

Libertas is for a United, Federal, Europe.

What does that mean?

It means that we agree that joining the EU was the best decision Ireland ever made.

It means that we want Ireland to be involved right at the heart of Europe.

They were certainly prominent in their opposition to the Lisbon Treaty though.

Hotblack Desiato

Ganley opposed the fiscal compact treaty as well.

Makes you wonder what, if any, sort of EU treaty he would actually be in favour of.

ArmaniJeanss

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

No, Robert is right. This is from their website:

Has to be remembered this is from 2008 when no-one would have believed it was possible to get any country to actually leave the EU.
So even if your aim was to cause the break-up of the EU, then back then it would make sense to approach it from a position of 'the EU is great, but maybe lets not allow it go any further, even roll it back a bit, and a bit more'.