Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, the War Within" [** SPOILERS **]

AtomicHorror

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because, as I said above, it wasn't Ash Tyler who tried to kill her. At those moments, Voq was fully in control.. Tyler was merely along for the ride.

So yes, even though the situation was a bit more complex as they were sharing the same physical body, it's essentially blaming him for Voq's actions - actions he had no say in.

I genuinely don't see why this seems to be so hard to understand.

Seconded- this point was been made explicitly clear in several episodes. Voq and Tyler had mutually exclusive control- one was not responsible for the actions of the other.

I think you'd have to be only half watching the show to have missed this, firebird.

firebird84

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because, as I said above, it wasn't Ash Tyler who tried to kill her. At those moments, Voq was fully in control.. Tyler was merely along for the ride.

So yes, even though the situation was a bit more complex as they were sharing the same physical body, it's essentially blaming him for Voq's actions - actions he had no say in.

I genuinely don't see why this seems to be so hard to understand.

I don't see why it's so hard to understand why she wouldn't want to go back to him, it's a traumatizing experience even if it wasn't him in control (which she clearly says - something along the lines of I see Vok's eyes or whatever) and him trying to say that basically it's her fault if he falls apart because she won't take him back is him not taking responsibility for his own rebuild process and getting his life back together. She doesn't owe him anything and he doesn't get that.

_Kaiser_

firebird84 wrote: »

I don't see why it's so hard to understand why she wouldn't want to go back to him, it's a traumatizing experience even if it wasn't him in control (which she clearly says - something along the lines of I see Vok's eyes or whatever) and him trying to say that basically it's her fault if he falls apart because she won't take him back is him not taking responsibility for his own rebuild process and getting his life back together. She doesn't owe him anything and he doesn't get that.

Oh I get that she is traumatised by what happened and will always see the spectre of Voq in him from here on (well unless/until the writers decide otherwise ) and of course she's free to do as she chooses - but that's on her.
Tyler is as much a victim (more so even) of Voq as she is.

firebird84

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Oh I get that she is traumatised by what happened and will always see the spectre of Voq in him from here on (well unless/until the writers decide otherwise ) and of course she's free to do as she chooses - but that's on her. Tyler in this case is as much a victim (more so even) of Voq than she was.

Very true and maybe in earlier Trek someone like Troi would have been like "ok Riker, I know it wasn't you let's be cool again", I like how Discovery comes at it with a different level of complexity and force him to deal with it on his own which seems harsh but is probably closer to reality of how a couple would cope with something like that.

Goodshape

silverharp wrote: »

DS9 was a bit of a soap opera but at least it had interesting characters, this show has none

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I genuinely like the characters in Discovery. Particularly Stamets and Tilly. Ash is good when he's not moping about having tried to kill his girlfriend. Saru is interesting. Michael is fine as the main protagonist.

Lorca and Culber will both be missed.

PhiloCypher

Nobody is missing the fact it was the Voq personality not Tyler who attacked her. And maybe if Burnham was an actual Vulcan she would be able to parse her feelings over seeing the face of the man who tried to kill her. But as she's human, her immediate reaction to seeing him is going to be visceral and emotional for a while yet (or as someone already said until the writers decide it isn't) and that's entirely expected and appropriate. It was unreasonable for Tyler(desperate as he is) to expect her to just carry on as normal.

Mitch Connor

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Nobody is missing the fact it was the Voq personality not Tyler who attacked her. And maybe if Burnham was an actual Vulcan she would be able to parse her feelings over seeing the face of the man who tried to kill her. But as she's human her immediate reaction to seeing him is going to be visceral and emotional for a while yet (or as someone already said until the writers decide it isn't) and thats entirely expected and appropriate. It was unreasonable for Tyler(desperate as he is) to expect her to just carry on as normal.

I would think it should be beyond the attack itself.

How is she to truly know what of her bond with Ash was real, and what was just Voq manipulating her. How can she trust anything that happened.

On a more general point on the episode, Gorgeo being named captain of Discovery. Clearly this is one of the deals that were struck for her help to end the war.

However, it is such a hollow lie. The entire discovery crew knew they went to the MU. You would also think they know the Emporer was the MU Gorgeo. Everyone on the bridge did anyway. The announcement of her return as captain was made ship wide, not star fleet wide, and I've got to think they all knew it was BS - especially the bridge crew, so whats the point?

Mitch Connor

silverharp wrote: »

DS9 was a bit of a soap opera but at least it had interesting characters, this show has none

Comparing it to S1 DS9 I would say it is comparible enough in terms of interesting characters.

I can see real potential in Saru, Michael, Tilly, Stamets and Ash.

firebird84

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I would think it should be beyond the attack itself.

How is she to truly know what of her bond with Ash was real, and what was just Voq manipulating her. How can she trust anything that happened.

On a more general point on the episode, Gorgeo being named captain of Discovery. Clearly this is one of the deals that were struck for her help to end the war.

Yeah and someone earlier said can they truly trust L'Rell that Vok is gone, maybe he is really good at pretending to be Ash, Saru seemed to accept it was him very fast.

However, it is such a hollow lie. The entire discovery crew knew they went to the MU. You would also think they know the Emporer was the MU Gorgeo. Everyone on the bridge did anyway. The announcement of her return as captain was made ship wide, not star fleet wide, and I've got to think they all knew it was BS - especially the bridge crew, so whats the point?

This made me laugh when she strolled back on the bridge and Detmer looked at her as if to say "yay she isn't dead!" I actually shouted at my husband "they don't seriously buy this crap??".

_Kaiser_

firebird84 wrote: »

Yeah and someone earlier said can they truly trust L'Rell that Vok is gone, maybe he is really good at pretending to be Ash, Saru seemed to accept it was him very fast.

I put that down more to the doctor's report and the medical readings showing that all evidence of the Voq personality had been excised.

Of course, the writers could decide that L'Rell put him back to sleep again but that would just be a jumping the shark moment at this stage IMO

This made me laugh when she strolled back on the bridge and Detmer looked at her as if to say "yay she isn't dead!" I actually shouted at my husband "they don't seriously buy this crap??".

Not necessarily.. Wasn't it established that the holo viewer only focuses on the speaker or selected targets rather than necessarily the entire bridge in a previous episode? Did the Emperor actually communicate visually with them at any point? I don't think so but could be wrong?

As far as I know the only ones who know her real story are Burnham, Sarek and Cornwell, Saru, Tyler (maybe not even him if he was beamed off mirror Shenzhou before she made her appearance?), and the transporter chief who was sworn to silence under penalty of treason by Saru.

The rest of the crew have no idea of what happened I'd think.

expectationlost

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I put that down more to the doctor's report and the medical readings showing that all evidence of the Voq personality had been excised.

the medical reports were wrong before!

seriosuly do the crew not know he killed the doctor?

could the crew not for moment think our old captain was dead we _just_ went to a place where there are copies of people and now we see that person we though was dead.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because, as I said above, it wasn't Ash Tyler who tried to kill her. At those moments, Voq was fully in control.. Tyler was merely along for the ride.

So yes, even though the situation was a bit more complex as they were sharing the same physical body, it's essentially blaming him for Voq's actions - actions he had no say in.

I genuinely don't see why this seems to be so hard to understand.

Yeah I am in agreement with you.
Burnam has a case as shae made Tyler promise to come to her if he started losing control and he didn't, which caused a lot of this. And can not blame her for being spooked looking at him TBH.

But the rest of them can accept that Tyler (no matter the body) did not do these actions

seamus

PhiloCypher wrote: »

But as she's human, her immediate reaction to seeing him is going to be visceral and emotional for a while yet (or as someone already said until the writers decide it isn't) and that's entirely expected and appropriate.

I'm also a bit iffy on the "Oh, everyone loves Tyler now" thing, because ultimately they're not 100% sure what was done, they can't be 100% sure that Voq won't re-emerge.

Saru & Burnham seem to be the only ones treading with sufficient caution around Tyler. And while he's unlikely to start trying to kill people in the canteen, it seems naive to be leaping in and being his best buddy again.

Perhaps that's kind of the point - Tilly's speech about how she didn't expect to be in the middle of a war when she joined Starfleet, and Georgiou's constant talk of "weakness" reveals how Starfleet's constant optimism about peace and equality keeps coming back to bite them in the ass.

That's been the theme since the first episode and is what L'Rel told the Admiral - stop trying to be the Klingons' friends, and instead hit them hard.

So maybe the crew's apparent acceptance of Tyler is supposed to make us feel uneasy; because that naivety is going to be betrayed...again.

In the longer look at things, there was always a bit of a disconnect between Enterprise and TOS in terms of Starfleet attitudes. Enterprise was idealistic and starchy - very much like TNG - respect for all races, equality, we're out here learning things but we're being the best people we can, etc.

But TOS had a much rougher edge, people were flawed, new races were intriguing but to be treated with caution, etc.

So perhaps they're joining those dots together and trying to explain how the idealistic peaceful humans from Enterprise, became the more resourceful and cautious ones from TOS.

Mitch Connor

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I put that down more to the doctor's report and the medical readings showing that all evidence of the Voq personality had been excised.

Of course, the writers could decide that L'Rell put him back to sleep again but that would just be a jumping the shark moment at this stage IMO



Not necessarily.. Wasn't it established that the holo viewer only focuses on the speaker or selected targets rather than necessarily the entire bridge in a previous episode? Did the Emperor actually communicate visually with them at any point? I don't think so but could be wrong?

As far as I know the only ones who know her real story are Burnham, Sarek and Cornwell, Saru, Tyler (maybe not even him if he was beamed off mirror Shenzhou before she made her appearance?), and the transporter chief who was sworn to silence under penalty of treason by Saru.

The rest of the crew have no idea of what happened I'd think.

The holgram tech can focus on sending the image of particular area/people but nothing suggests that people around the projected image can't see it.

The image was put onto the bridge - I see no reason to think that everyone on the bridge couldn't see it.

Also, I actually took Detmar (sp?) reaction to be the same as everyone else's - a "Eh, are they serious with this sh1t?".

AtomicHorror

firebird84 wrote: »

Yeah and someone earlier said can they truly trust L'Rell that Vok is gone, maybe he is really good at pretending to be Ash, Saru seemed to accept it was him very fast.

Actually, what I said was this:

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No (I don't trust her). But she called to Sto'Vo'Kor. She's religious enough for that to be significant.

L'Rell, rightly or wrongly, seems to think Voq is dead.

I agree, they could bring him back yet again but I think that'd be flogging the plot point to death.

They're much more likely to use Tyler's newfound insight into Voq and Klingons generally as a plot driver.

AtomicHorror

I keep wondering how they'll handle Tyler seeing "Captain" Georgiou.

"Hey Tyler is this Capt- what's wrong?"

"Oh uh... indigestion. She's an impostor, I know because of reasons."

expectationlost

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Actually, what I said was this:



L'Rell, rightly or wrongly, seems to think Voq is dead.

I agree, they could bring him back yet again but I think that'd be flogging the plot point to death.

They're much more likely to use Tyler's newfound insight into Voq and Klingons generally as a plot driver.

is that not what L'Rell is for, she wants to unite the houses so do the Federation....

AtomicHorror

expectationlost wrote: »

is that not what L'Rell is for, she wants to unite the houses so do the Federation....

Since when do the Federation want a unified Klingon Empire?

L'Rell wants to unite the Houses to dominate the Federation. She seems less certain of the Klingon's current indiscriminate approach, but I don't see much sign that her goal there has changed. She has some grudging respect for Cornwell, but we'll see how she feels about the Admiral's plan to commit genocide against the Klingons.

Tyler's goals are presumably now aligned with Burnham and Saru, but he has the benefit of great insight into the T'Kuvma sect and the Klingon mentality in general.

Mitch Connor

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I keep wondering how they'll handle Tyler seeing "Captain" Georgiou.

"Hey Tyler is this Capt- what's wrong?"

"Oh uh... indigestion. She's an impostor, I know because of reasons."

I don't get this? Why would Tyler be any different Michael/Stamets/Saru etc - they all know who she is, and we know how they know.

Why do you wonder more about Tyler and why would his reaction be any different or more interesting?

strandroad

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't get this? Why would Tyler be any different Michael/Stamets/Saru etc - they all know who she is, and we know how they know.

Why do you wonder more about Tyler and why would his reaction be any different or more interesting?

He (Voq) ate her...

AtomicHorror

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't get this? Why would Tyler be any different Michael/Stamets/Saru etc - they all know who she is, and we know how they know.

The only people who know Mirror Georgiou beamed to Discovery are Saru, Michael, Sarek and Cornwell. Oh and the transporter operator who was specifically ordered by Saru to remain silent or be charged with treason.

To the rest of the crew, Cornwell is presenting Georgiou as the original, as if she was brought over from Cornwell's ship.

We might find that a little hard to accept, but there it is.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why do you wonder more about Tyler and why would his reaction be any different or more interesting?

Firstly, because Tyler saw the original Georgiou die, and then ate her corpse when food ran out on the Sarcophagus. This was when he was Voq, of course.

Secondly, because Cornwell does not know this and hasn't specifically ordered Tyler to stay silent.

expectationlost

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Since when do the Federation want a unified Klingon Empire?

L'Rell wants to unite the Houses to dominate the Federation. She seems less certain of the Klingon's current indiscriminate approach, but I don't see much sign that her goal there has changed. She has some grudging respect for Cornwell, but we'll see how she feels about the Admiral's plan to commit genocide against the Klingons.

Tyler's goals are presumably now aligned with Burnham and Saru, but he has the benefit of great insight into the T'Kuvma sect and the Klingon mentality in general.

the federation want a united klingon empire because then they can do a deal with a united klingon empire.

AtomicHorror

expectationlost wrote: »

the federation want a united klingon empire because then they can do a deal with a united klingon empire.

I might have missed it... when have they mentioned that?

My impression from Sarek's comments in the first episode is that the fragmentation of the Klingon Empire has been seen as an advantage, since in-fighting keeps them too disorganised to threaten the Federation. Burnham and Georgiou seem to similarly hold to that view in episode 2. Their plan to capture T'Kuvma was based on the understanding that he was a force for greater unity and that his capture and humiliation would undermine that goal.

Certainly with the benefit of knowing about the Khitomer Accords and the Federation Klingon Alliance, we can see how unity will one day work to the Federation's advantage, but at the time of Discovery, as far as I can see, the Federation hasn't yet come to that conclusion.

I suspect that Burnham is on to something vaguely along those lines, but more relating to the need for the Klingons and Federation to face a common enemy in order to establish mutual respect.