Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, the War Within" [** SPOILERS **]

Evade

I hope they don't do the usual Start Trek cliffhanger with no idea how they're going to resolve it.

pixelburp

Goodshape wrote: »

Well... they're not going to destroy Qo'noS though, are they? That'd be a real kick to the canon-face.

Any word if the episode is extended at all, or just the normal 40 - 50 minutes?

Bit excited.

I suspect it'll be something like Georgiou concocting a plan to destroy all of Qo'noS (with the Fed council operating in 'plausible deniability' mode), with Burnham & pals foiling her just in time, but still allowing for some form of ceasefire with the Klingons.

expectationlost

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The Tyler personality is in control fully. Voq is dead. L'Rell had to kill him to relieve his suffering.

you trust L'Rell?

expectationlost

so anyway berhnam didn't notice 2 imposters close to her, and she mutinied, and they still don't question her judgement?

Goodshape

Nobody noticed them.

She's had an entire season to redeem herself w/r/t the mutiny, and in most of that time she hasn't been all that trusted by many (most notably Saru).

coffee_cake

Greyjoy wrote: »

It's the rapid pace of that forgiveness that's the real problem. It's been maybe only a couple of days since he murdered Culber and the crew are able to just shrug that off. Tyler wasn't mind controlled or assimilated - his true persona asserted himself. Tyler has more in common with Seska from Voyager than Picard / Locutus. The writers could have earned Tyler's forgiveness from the crew if they had given the story room to breathe. I too felt angry on Burnham's behalf for the grief others were giving her, trying to push her to forgive Tyler so quickly.

I wonder how stamets is gonna take everyone being buddy buddy with ash as well

expectationlost

Goodshape wrote: »

Nobody noticed them.

She's had an entire season to redeem herself w/r/t the mutiny, and in most of that time she hasn't been all that trusted by many (most notably Saru).

one of them died when she was the only other person around.

_Kaiser_

bluewolf wrote: »

I wonder how stamets is gonna take everyone being buddy buddy with ash as well

I really don't see the issue with this and can buy the crew's acceptance given that, regardless of whose body it actually is/was, there were 2 distinct personalities in there.

Voq is the one who killed the doc and tried to kill Burnham. At those moments, Ash had no control or say at all (think Picard as Locutus during Wolf 359..)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuzoxcErOc8

Same idea really.

coffee_cake

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I really don't see the issue with this and can buy the crew's acceptance

yeah in theory but in 'reality' stamets bumped into him and lost the plot. he's totally gonna have an issue with it

Sad Professor

Locutus didn't kill any of Picard's bridge crew or their partners. Sisko's initial resentment of Picard is a better comparison for Stamets. In that case, once he accepted the need to move on from his wife's death he was cool with Picard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

AMKC

I quiet liked this week's episode. Thought it was very good. Tidied up a few things like what happened to the ISS Discovery and the other Captain Lorca.
It was nice to see the Admiral back and Sarek.
I thought it was much better than the last couple of episodes it showed the crew working together to find a solution and had a nice pace to it. That's the kind of show I want to see sure a little action here and there is ok but all the time is just boring.
I don't care for the Ash character the sooner he is gone the better.
I think Micheal was right with what she said to him.
I do also think it a bit crazy that they would give command of Discovery to the Empress.
I don't think Zaru was very happy about that.
It will be interesting to see next week's episode and if they leave it on a cliffhanger or not.

AtomicHorror

expectationlost wrote: »

you trust L'Rell?

No. But she called to Sto'Vo'Kor. She's religious enough for that to be significant.

The_Valeyard

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Actually thats it....

She knows the future. She knows how to defeat the klingons

Maybe this was the way it was meant to happen. This was always her Destiny. So Starfleet has to let the Defiant go back in time 10 years from now, for the Emperor to rise to power, be defeated, come to our universe or the Federation will be destroyed now.

firebird84

AMKC wrote: »

I quiet liked this week's episode. Thought it was very good. Tidied up a few things like what happened to the ISS Discovery and the other Captain Lorca.

I was confused by the scene when the Admiral was talking about Lorca being alone in the mirror universe, did Mirror Lorca say for certain that they switched places? I thought he just said it was a transporter accident?

Bacchus

firebird84 wrote: »

I was confused by the scene when the Admiral was talking about Lorca being alone in the mirror universe, did Mirror Lorca say for certain that they switched places? I thought he just said it was a transporter accident?

MU Lorca passed into the PU when he went through the Ion strorm. One of the established ways to cross between the universes is if the same person passes through an Ion storm on both sides at the same time (and transports?). So, it is a given that Lorca from the PU was also passing through the same Ion storm and was dropped into the MU... which at that time meant he was being chased down by the Empire and most likely died. This point was hammered home with the Admirals comment that "they say no one man can survive alone in that universe" or something like that. He had no allies over there so would have been a lamb to the slaughter.

Goodshape

Bacchus wrote: »

MU Lorca passed into the PU when he went through the Ion strorm. One of the established ways to cross between the universes is if the same person passes through an Ion storm on both sides at the same time (and transports?). So, it is a given that Lorca from the PU was also passing through the same Ion storm and was dropped into the MU... which at that time meant he was being chased down by the Empire and most likely died. This point was hammered home with the Admirals comment that "they say no one man can survive alone in that universe" or something like that. He had no allies over there so would have been a lamb to the slaughter.

But also, no body on screen means a return of Prime-Lorca is still a possibility at some future date.

The switch-over also means, I think?, that it was Mirror-Lorca in charge of the Buran when it was destroyed. Possibly destroying the ship himself in order to keep his identity secret.

knucklehead6

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Maybe this was the way it was meant to happen. This was always her Destiny. So Starfleet has to let the Defiant go back in time 10 years from now, for the Emperor to rise to power, be defeated, come to our universe or the Federation will be destroyed now.

firebird84

Goodshape wrote: »

But also, no body on screen means a return of Prime-Lorca is still a possibility at some future date.

And/or MU Burnham, which I was really hoping for before they exited the MU

Johnny Storm

firebird84 wrote: »

And/or MU Burnham, which I was really hoping for before they exited the MU

Of course, season 1 is not actually over yet.
And based on what we have seen so far, they will undoubtedly be turning everything on its head again as part of the season-ending cliffhanger.....

silverharp

whe is the "boldly going...." coming back? is turning into Game of Thrones in Space.

Mitch Connor

silverharp wrote: »

whe is the "boldly going...." coming back? is turning into Game of Thrones in Space.

That was the mission of the Enterprise.

DS9 didn't have that.

That wasn't the Voyager mission (though they did boldly go).

duffman13

Really feel it's not the end of the MU story line yet tbh, it was interesting when talking about classifying the whole thing, Stamets agreed, citing that people affected by the loss of a loved one may want to try find that loved one even in alternative universe.

Stamets has evolved hugely as a character since the first couple of episodes.

Spear

I found some recent comments from Jason Isaacs about backstory they planned but didn't put in:

Jason Isaacs wrote:

There was a Prime Lorca, he was captain of the Buran in the Prime world. He swapped with him and found himself captain of the Buran. This never came out, this backstory detail we never put in the dialogue: Although Lorca spins this story having had to sacrifice the men on Buran and had to blow them up to save them from Klingon torture. Actually, if I remember correctly, there was some kind of DNA identification that would have exposed Lorca as not being Prime Lorca, and so he blew up the ship and killed everyone on it.

taken from:

https://trekmovie.com/2018/01/29/jason-isaacs-and-star-trek-discovery-producers-talk-prime-lorca-emperors-future-and-more/

Curiously he dodges on returning or the fate of Prime Lorca.

AMKC

duffman13 wrote: »

Really feel it's not the end of the MU story line yet tbh, it was interesting when talking about classifying the whole thing, Stamets agreed, citing that people affected by the loss of a loved one may want to try find that loved one even in alternative universe.

Stamets has evolved hugely as a character since the first couple of episodes.

Agreed and he has been through a lot more than most of the other characters too. From having to do things he did not like or agree with to losing his partner.

Goodshape

duffman13 wrote: »

Stamets agreed, citing that people affected by the loss of a loved one may want to try find that loved one even in alternative universe.

Ohhh.. yeah! I remember him saying that alright but didn't click with me that he is someone who has lost a loved one!

Could definitely see him doing a few sneaky cross-overs and maybe going a bit mad in the process. If that's something he has in mind, it could explain why he's thus far been pretty blasé about the whole "my husband was murdered a couple days ago" thing.

I think I'd like to see that.

Stamets has evolved hugely as a character since the first couple of episodes.

Yeah, definitely. I think he's a great character and portrayed really well by Anthony Rapp.

PhiloCypher

While I liked the scene with Sarek telling Burnham to never regret loving someone(Tyler )and Tilly reaching out to and then advocating for Tyler , I felt his own argument for her not splitting up with him was ridiculous. It essentially amounted to

" I can't believe you're breaking up with me after my first unsuccessful murder attempt.

firebird84

PhiloCypher wrote: »

While I liked the scene with Sarek telling Burnham to never regret loving someone(Tyler )and Tilly reaching out to and then advocating for Tyler , I felt his own argument for her not splitting up with him was ridiculous. It essentially amounted to

" I can't believe you're breaking up with me after my first unsuccessful murder attempt.

This

I read an article comparing it to use of domestic violence type language, almost guilting her into going back to him because he is a broken man and it's not his fault. Why should she?!

silverharp

Mitch Connor wrote: »

That was the mission of the Enterprise.

DS9 didn't have that.

That wasn't the Voyager mission (though they did boldly go).

DS9 was a bit of a soap opera but at least it had interesting characters, this show has none

_Kaiser_

firebird84 wrote: »

This

I read an article comparing it to use of domestic violence type language, almost guilting her into going back to him because he is a broken man and it's not his fault. Why should she?!

Because, as I said above, it wasn't Ash Tyler who tried to kill her. At those moments, Voq was fully in control.. Tyler was merely along for the ride.

So yes, even though the situation was a bit more complex as they were sharing the same physical body, it's essentially blaming him for Voq's actions - actions he had no say in.

I genuinely don't see why this seems to be so hard to understand.

_Kaiser_

silverharp wrote: »

DS9 was a bit of a soap opera but at least it had interesting characters, this show has none

Lorca was pretty interesting to be fair.. until they turned him into a one-dimensional villain of the week from the MU in his last appearance

The rest of them I agree with you on, though you can see that someone has realised that Burnham isn't enough to carry the show by how they've started slowly giving the rest of the bridge crew some more screen time.

But GoT in space is a fairly accurate description - especially as the producers acknowledge that show as inspiration. Before the ranting starts, that doesn't necessarily make it a BAD show (I only watched GoT in the last 2 months and got very into it!), but it's very far from the generally optimistic (yes, even DS9) with likable characters Star Trek that came before.