Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, the War Within" [** SPOILERS **]

unhappyBB

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

If any of that was to happen, wouldn't she already know? I mean, didn't she read up on the history of her federation self from the Defiant?

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

At that point when the houses were unified, I don't think that the cloaking device was as universal as it is now; IIRC only the Ship of the Dead had it, and when Kor seized power he used it as a bargaining tool to gain fealty from the other houses. Before that the unified Klingons were 'only' attacking with regular, uncloaked ships.

But if so few ships had them before Kol was killed where are all the cloaks coming from now. Is each house building their own or are there still relatively few of them?

pixelburp wrote: »

Nor do I think the strategy versus chaos argument necessarily holds; history - and current events - are full of analogous situations where the presumed superior faction, usually more technically and strategically acute, are pegged back and struggle against a more chaotic, guerrilla force; heck, the notion of an enemy hiding in in the shadows before attacking mercilessly is a depressingly real situation what with the extremist cells attacking various public events in major EU cities using simple tools such as vans and knives. Couple that with the Federation's known stance of being a pacifist, defensive organisation, and any ruthless attack is only going to be multiplied.

The superior faction often looses against a guerilla faction on the guerillas own turf like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bajor, Cardassia, etc but you can't conquer territory like that.

knucklehead6

unhappyBB wrote: »

If any of that was to happen, wouldn't she already know? I mean, didn't she read up on the history of her federation self from the Defiant?

Actually thats it....

She knows the future. She knows how to defeat the klingons

Spear

unhappyBB wrote: »

If any of that was to happen, wouldn't she already know? I mean, didn't she read up on the history of her federation self from the Defiant?

That's actually a really valid point.... one which I'm sure the writers will completely ignore.

Greyjoy

This definitely felt like a much weaker episode. There were simply too many plot threads the writers were trying to tie up for the finale. The whole episode had a rushed, hasty feel to it. The season would have been better served by returning from the MU a little earlier to give more time to the fallout from the Klingon war.

Tyler/Voq's storyline has become ridiculous. The scene in the canteen made me groan out loud watching it. This is a guy who has been outed as a klingon spy and murdered the chief medical officer but the other crewmembers overlook that because he looked sad eating his meal?!? Again if they had returned sooner from the MU they could have developed Tyler's story better and have him gradually regain the crew's trust but this felt like whiplash with how soon the crew dismissed him murdering Culber. They seemed to treat Tyler as if he had been 'implanted' with the Voq persona instead of it being the other way around. Tyler is a disguise for Voq - and the fact that Saru and the rest of the crew accepted L'Rell's assurance that Voq is gone permanently makes them look incredibly naive.

That same naivety rears its head with putting the Emperor into the captain's chair. If they want to pass her off as the prime Georgiu that's fine but handing command of Discovery over to her makes the crew look like idiots.

TheIrishGrover

I thought that was pretty good episode if just a bit predictable.

• It's obvious that they are going to spore jump into the planet core and senior management have decided to try to blow it up from inside
• Burnham and rest of crew will be shocked and there will be a whole moral showdown where they use the female Klingon to try to broker some kind of standoff/treaty.
• Part of her agreement will be her release and taking Tyler with her
• Tyler/Voq solution too easy and they are too easy to forgive him so it's obviously going to bite them in the ass.
• The Emperor is still just missing a mustache to twirl.
• Tilly's still a redshirt. Said it from the start.
• Did the admiral and Sarek change into darker battle uniforms? Sarek looks all total badass now
• In the middle of a war and they have time to redecorate/restore their ship insignia etc.

So it looks like I'm pretty down on this episode but I'm not. I liked it overall. The acting has been very good. Sure, the Emperor is a cartoon character and Burnham is just bland but that's not the actors' fault. Maybe it's just my Mirror Universe prejudice

Goodshape

Greyjoy wrote: »

The scene in the canteen made me groan out loud watching it. This is a guy who has been outed as a klingon spy and murdered the chief medicial officer but the other crewmembers overlook that because he looked sad eating his meal?!?

I've a suspicion that this is a case of the writers / show-runners realising "oh no, the viewers like Ash and the Klingon stuff isn't working! We need to change things, quickly!".

But also, in the example you gave, it's a bit of a damned if you do and damned if you don't. People complain when the Federation crew are showing too much animosity towards each other but now that we're shown a little bit of that classic optimistic forgiveness and acceptance, it's derided for being unrealistic or heavy handed.

These people see a lot of crazy ****. They're scientists, not soldiers. They have some understanding of what went down and of the difference between Voq and Ash. What would be the point of holding a grudge? There's enough dialogue explaining this POV in the episode, from Tilly mostly.

Some of the dialogue / actions was maybe a little on-the-nose but it's still totally in character for Starfleet / Federation. Sure how many times did Data 'malfunction' and hijack the Enterprise to go meet his psychopathic brother or whatever.

**** happens, every day. You deal with it, you move on, you assume the best in people. Even the crazy genocidal Emperor from another dimension wasn't put in chains.


Edit:: Or Picard for that matter! How was he ever given a Starfleet badge again after Locutus??! Because you assume the best in people. Even if it does bite you in the ass eventually; that's Starfleet.

pixelburp

Yeah, the crews' forgiveness was a little quick off the mark, and honestly I was kinda on Burnham's side when Tilly gave her speech - Tyler did try to kill Michael FFS, how could anyone be intimate & physical with their partner again after that?? - BUT it was equally on message with the kind of mentality that the Federation is meant to portray.

After all, is the Federation just a bunch of edicts and laws, behind which every human is still as petty and emotionally selfish as they are now, or should it run a little deeper into how people en masse behave?

(Mind you, every second episode on TNG, DS9 et al, someone got possessed by a variation of Space Ghost, only to attack & try to murder their colleagues. By all accounts Miles & Kaiko should have divorced AGES ago, given how frequently one of them was turned into a murderous vessel).

TheIrishGrover

pixelburp wrote: »

.....By all accounts Miles & Kaiko should have divorced AGES ago, given how frequently one of them was turned into a murderous vessel).....

Not true. She was ALWAYS an annoying wagon

Evade

The difference here though is Tyler is the possession, Voq is the rightful owner of that body. Kind of crosses a line now that I think about it.

Goodshape

pixelburp wrote: »

After all, is the Federation just a bunch of edicts and laws, behind which every human is still as petty and emotionally selfish as they are now, or should it run a little deeper into how people en masse behave?

Oh I think it's more than just edicts and laws. For the humans at the very least. It's a distinctly egalitarian society. It would be ingrained in their nature to respect those around them.

It's very understandable why it's more difficult for Micheal in this case. Also, she wasn't raised on Earth.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

The difference here though is Tyler is the possession, Voq is the rightful owner of that body. Kind of crosses a line now that I think about it.

Unless something happens with that in the final, I'm putting it down to "felt like a good idea in Episode 5" – and now they just want Ash back. He turned out to be a better character than Voq.

But something might happen yet! The explanation and 'reveal' for Ash/Voq is easily my least favourite part of the show at the moment.

Franz Von Peppercorn

knucklehead6 wrote: »

nope. She said it in the episode, they are a cancer. Not a chance will she join forces with them

Yes. As a Terran she’s still a human supremacist. She just thinks these humans are too weak to destroy the Klingons.

Greyjoy

Goodshape wrote: »

But also, in the example you gave, it's a bit of a damned if you do and damned if you don't. People complain when the Federation crew are showing too much animosity towards each other but now that we're shown a little bit of that classic optimistic forgiveness and acceptance, it's derided for being unrealistic or heavy handed.

It's the rapid pace of that forgiveness that's the real problem. It's been maybe only a couple of days since he murdered Culber and the crew are able to just shrug that off. Tyler wasn't mind controlled or assimilated - his true persona asserted himself. Tyler has more in common with Seska from Voyager than Picard / Locutus. The writers could have earned Tyler's forgiveness from the crew if they had given the story room to breathe. I too felt angry on Burnham's behalf for the grief others were giving her, trying to push her to forgive Tyler so quickly.

Goodshape

Yeah, the whole thing's a bit rushed. I agree with you there alright.

Johnny Storm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Excellent again. Different pacing but they have set the final episode up for one of the greatest finales in trek history.

You know what the absolute best thing about it is? At the end of it all, you can easily see how canon (visuals aside) is going to remain intact after all the concerns. The writers were spot on from the very beginning.

• Discovery's jump to the mirror universe is going to be buried and classified.
  
• Sarek and Michael's relationship is going to come to a fractured end as he is going behind Michael's back essentially. Michael will go against everyone again and save Qronos - against her captain, a woman who is like her mother and a Vulcan who is like her father, becuase it is the right thing to do. You can imagine Sarek telling Spock that we do not speak of Michael again, something Spock brings with him through life.
  
• They will have enough spore material to get into and out of Qronos (or perhaps Discovery gets destroyed) and that will be the end of the DASH drive.
  
• If they somehow wrap up the Klingon ship redesign (the house reuniting and creating a new Klingon battlefleet), then it would be perfect.

I'm sure you are correct

_But_ weren't Kirk and Spock completely astonished at their first sight of a cloaking device? They seemed to have no idea that such a thing was even possible? I'm not sure how they could get around that

pixelburp

Greyjoy wrote: »

It's the rapid pace of that forgiveness that's the real problem. It's been maybe only a couple of days since he murdered Culber and the crew are able to just shrug that off. Tyler wasn't mind controlled or assimilated - his true persona asserted himself. Tyler has more in common with Seska from Voyager than Picard / Locutus. The writers could have earned Tyler's forgiveness from the crew if they had given the story room to breathe. I too felt angry on Burnham's behalf for the grief others were giving her, trying to push her to forgive Tyler so quickly.

I totally get what you're saying, but at the same time, Star Trek has ALWAYS done that fasttracking of forgiveness - sure it was the hallmark of Episodic TV at its core: at the episode's end, all was back to normal, as if nothing ever really happened to the crew, no matter how ostensibly terrible.

In fact, when I finally got around to watching TNG, it was the Best of Both Worlds that really hammered home the inherent credibility flaw in TNG's 'one and done' type of storytelling. Bar one episode spent recuperating in France, Picard's transformation into a Borg (a Borg FFS) was never addressed, never came up; hell it wasn't until First Contact it became any kind of professional impediment.

I know I underlined the fundamental decency in Federation human hearts a few posts back, but stuff like Locutus stretched that decency to breaking point, especially without any kind of emotional fallout ala Burnham to at least ground some of the drama. I dunno, I feel like I'm probably talking myself into circles a little here

pixelburp

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I'm sure you are correct

_But_ weren't Kirk and Spock completely astonished at their first sight of a cloaking device? They seemed to have no idea that such a thing was even possible? I'm not sure how they could get around that

Easy answer: it was the first iteration of Star Trek, continuity didn't exist back then. I'm serious; I daresay you could rewatch TOS and go bananas at all the contradictions and goofs later Treks just ignored.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I totally get what you're saying, but at the same time, Star Trek has ALWAYS done that fasttracking of forgiveness - sure it was the hallmark of Episodic TV at its core: at the episode's end, all was back to normal, as if nothing ever really happened to the crew, no matter how ostensibly terrible.

But this isn't episodic TV any more so it's more glaring here.

pixelburp wrote: »

In fact, when I finally got around to watching TNG, it was the Best of Both Worlds that really hammered home the inherent credibility flaw in TNG's 'one and done' type of storytelling. Bar one episode spent recuperating in France, Picard's transformation into a Borg (a Borg FFS) was never addressed, never came up; hell it wasn't until First Contact it became any kind of professional impediment.

It's definitely touched on in I Borg and I think in Descent too.

AtomicHorror

unhappyBB wrote: »

If any of that was to happen, wouldn't she already know? I mean, didn't she read up on the history of her federation self from the Defiant?

A lot of what happens on USS Discovery is classified and wouldn't necessarily have been in the Defiant's records. The whole trip to the MU was classified, as was the existence of mirror Georgiou. So I guess it all depends on who these actions are meant to fool- the public, Starfleet or just the top brass with access to classified information?

Most likely it is meant to be classified, buried and yet allow for plausible deniability if ever leaked later.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

But this isn't episodic TV any more so it's more glaring here.

That's fair enough; but I would argue that the narrative as a whole is rushing at a dizzying speed anyway, so the hurried forgiveness felt parallel to the broader messy velocity.

Evade wrote: »

It's definitely touched on in I Borg and I think in Descent too.

TBH I don't remember it, certainly not in the context of it changing how people perceived Picard - which is my main grumble. It wouldn't even have meant changing the format from episodic to serialised (not that it existed back then) either: all the writers had to do was tweak the relationship between Picard and Riker, the latter perhaps being on guard at Picard's decisions; his generally dogged loyalty in the face of career advancement left for a pretty empty character otherwise so it would have at least made things more interesting.

It's all a little pointless I guess, grumbling at a 25-30 year old show for not being XYZ, but certainly it felt like the concept of Episodic TV pushed to its absolute breaking point.

Sad Professor

Serialised storytelling is very hard to do well. Most shows that have nailed it had b-plots or large casts of characters to draw on. But when you only have a small group of characters? You inevitably have to compress things. Having things play out gradually over the space of multiple episodes just isn't very interesting most of the time. It feels like even the writers started to realise this half way through this season.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

That's fair enough; but I would argue that the narrative as a whole is rushing at a dizzying speed anyway, so the hurried forgiveness felt parallel to the broader messy velocity.

I'm pretty sure it's at least partly due to changing showrunners a few times and the current ones are trying to set their status quo going into season two. The worst thing they could do is never really address it like what happened with the Maquis on Voyager.

pixelburp wrote: »

TBH I don't remember it, certainly not in the context of it changing how people perceived Picard - which is my main grumble. It wouldn't even have meant changing the format from episodic to serialised (not that it existed back then) either: all the writers had to do was tweak the relationship between Picard and Riker, the latter perhaps being on guard at Picard's decisions; his generally dogged loyalty in the face of career advancement left for a pretty empty character otherwise so it would have at least made things more interesting.

It's all a little pointless I guess, grumbling at a 25-30 year old show for not being XYZ, but certainly it felt like the concept of Episodic TV pushed to its absolute breaking point.

That's down to the episodic nature again. During the episodes people did view Picard a little differently but then by the end everything was back to normal.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Easy answer: it was the first iteration of Star Trek, continuity didn't exist back then. I'm serious; I daresay you could rewatch TOS and go bananas at all the contradictions and goofs later Treks just ignored.

FFS the vulcans being related to romulans and NO ONE found out??

Sad Professor

I think the Maquis on Voyager were addressed as much as they could have been considering they put them in Starfleet uniforms at the end of the pilot and had them act like they were all friends. Also the nature of Chakotay's character didn't really lend itself to conflict with Janeway. If they had turned out to be mutinous it would have made Janeway look stupid.

I didn't really like the Ash stuff in this episode but mainly because I just don't like the character and find his relationship with Michael really boring to watch. It seems strange to me that they would resolve the Voq storyline so soon. Unless they are planning to kill him off?

pixelburp

Sad Professor wrote: »

[...]

I didn't really like the Ash stuff in this episode but mainly because I just don't like the character and find his relationship with Michael really boring to watch. It seems strange to me that they would resolve the Voq storyline so soon. Unless they are planning to kill him off?

A noble sacrifice to save Discovery / Burnham. If the narrative burn-off is continuing, and the Tyler/Voq story seems pretty much done, there's nowhere else for that character to go except redemption through death.

The Tyler / Voq thing actually links to one concern about Discovery's long-term viability though. They've established distinct Twists and Rug-Pulls as part of the storytelling framework here, and ultimately the effect of these diminish the more they're used. I'd hate for season 2 onwards to include their own twists and turns.

Sad Professor

pixelburp wrote: »

A noble sacrifice to save Discovery / Burnham. If the narrative burn-off is continuing, and the Tyler/Voq story seems pretty much done, there's nowhere else for that character to go except redemption through death.

The Tyler / Voq thing actually links to one concern about Discovery's long-term viability though. They've established distinct Twists and Rug-Pulls as part of the storytelling framework here, and ultimately the effect of these diminish the more they're used. I'd hate for season 2 onwards to include their own twists and turns.

A lot of those rug pulls seemed like course corrections to me. The realisation that certain characters/storylines weren't working and had go immediately. I don't think that was the kind of show they set out to make. But now that it's part of the show they could get a lot of mileage out of it before it becomes tiresome.

Greyjoy

pixelburp wrote: »

I totally get what you're saying, but at the same time, Star Trek has ALWAYS done that fasttracking of forgiveness - sure it was the hallmark of Episodic TV at its core: at the episode's end, all was back to normal, as if nothing ever really happened to the crew, no matter how ostensibly terrible.

Yeah but those earlier series were never serialized to the degree that Discovery is. The writers can't have it both ways - they can't tout the show as being incredibly serialized and then have everything reset 'back to normal' at the end of each episode.

I think they still could have found a better balance even within that episode itself. I had no problem with Tilly moving to sit beside Tyler - she's an idealistic person, it felt totally in keeping with her character. But when an entire group of other crew members followed her it strained credibility to breaking point.

unhappyBB

Spear wrote: »

That's actually a really valid point.... one which I'm sure the writers will completely ignore.

I don't know. I thought they were hinting at this when she said to the admiral "I know how she died" or something to that effect. I must check that scene out again.

Goodshape

Well... they're not going to destroy Qo'noS though, are they? That'd be a real kick to the canon-face.


Any word if the episode is extended at all, or just the normal 40 - 50 minutes?


Bit excited.