Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, the War Within" [** SPOILERS **]

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

See, the problem is you can't have it both ways. You can't have the warrior race with tactical superiority raiding willy nilly bring the Federation to it's knees while a few months ago the same warrior race with a united with a goal of bringing the federation to its knees failed.

What? I think you need to rewatch this season as you are missing the whole point of what is going on with the Klingons.

So when we first encounter the Klingons they are seperate houses warring with each other with no real incentive to attack the federation.

T-Kuvma comes along with cloaking technology and with the help of Burnham pissing them all off he manages to convince them to attack the federation.

Armed with the cloak they would have wiped out the federation if T-Kuvma survived and united them, but even with him dead and them not fully united, they still have maintained a desire to destroy the federation.

The point is that the cloak is the single most devistating weapon in their arsenal and the reason Discovery sacrificed everything to find a way to nulify it. To be surprised that the Klingons are winning a war even as a dis functional force is not respectful to the tactical advantage the cloak gives.

GSPfan

flazio wrote: »

Ok, why does Empress Georgiu have to take the Captains chair? Why can't the admiral take advice from her quarters and command the ship herself?

I have a strong suspicion she is being used as a convenient pawn in a plan to destroy Kronos. The idea that they are going to map targets and do a strategic attack is a distraction for a plan to destroy their home world.

You seen the admirals reaction to a space station being destroyed, she was devastated and beaten, and the federation morality is slipping away.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

What? I think you need to rewatch this season as you are missing the whole point of what is going on with the Klingons.

So when we first encounter the Klingons they are seperate houses warring with each other with no real incentive to attack the federation.

T-Kuvma comes along with cloaking technology and with the help of Burnham pissing them all off he manages to convince them to attack the federation.

Armed with the cloak they would have wiped out the federation if T-Kuvma survived and united them, but even with him dead and them not fully united, they still have maintained a desire to destroy the federation.

The point is that the cloak is the single most devistating weapon in their arsenal and the reason Discovery sacrificed everything to find a way to nulify it. To be surprised that the Klingons are winning a war even as a dis functional force is not respectful to the tactical advantage the cloak gives.

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

AtomicHorror

flazio wrote: »

Ok, why does Empress Georgiu have to take the Captains chair? Why can't the admiral take advice from her quarters and command the ship herself?

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

GSPfan

In fact don’t be surprised to see those terraforming drill things repurposed and used on Kronos to destroy the planet. The use of them to create life on one planet just to be used to destroy another would be a standard plot point.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

That's a good point and very nasty. Burnham definitely wouldn't be happy to have her mentor's name dragged through the mud in the history books like that.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

He never had them united though, or at least not long enough to do any damage.

This is getting ridiculous. No Trek has ever been subjected to this level of nit picking, to justify dislike, as far as I can remember.

The cloak has always been a weird one. No way would the federation ever have signed the treaty of Algeron preventing cloak research. Why not? Because it's a bloody war winner. Fleets of ships could park up at Earth and start hammering away.

It would take the disorganisation of the houses to prevent such an attack, as it would require huge numbers.


Complaining about this yet not blasting TNG for the Borg not just sending 2 ships, DS9 for using literal Deus Ex with destroying Dominion fleets, Voyager for... well Voyager is blasted for reset button mashing

Or Treks biggest flaws of
1. Sub light speed weapons (like Last Jedi final battle)
2. Transporter not used as a weapon
3. And biggest of all... Only ever having one or two ships defending Earth (insert core planet as required), or DS9 at the height of Dominion cold/hot war

Trek is full of these inconsistencies but we ignore them for story reasons.
Attacking Discovery for actually showing how devastating a cloaked fleet would be?? Come on

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

That's a good point and very nasty. Burnham definitely wouldn't be happy to have her mentor's name dragged through the mud in the history books like that.

Probably not, and while Saru may follow orders and keep silent, it's hard to know how Tyler will react to this turn of events.

Cornwell does not know it, but Tyler will immediately realise Georgiou is an imposter.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

Because they had one ship with it at the start

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Attacking Discovery for actually showing how devastating a cloaked fleet would be?? Come on

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they had one ship with it at the start

By the time the tomb ship was destroyed they already had multiple (most?) ships with cloaks didn't they?

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they had one ship with it at the start

Yep, and also Kol was an idiot.

Once he did get control of the Sarcophagus, rather than distribute the cloaking technology and get the Klingon fleet ready quickly, he seems to have spent his time playing the houses off each other and dangling the promise of cloaking tech as a prize to whoever best pleased him.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

They haven’t been united. T-Kuvma died and the Klingons never really united.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

They haven’t been united. T-Kuvma died and the Klingons never really united.

They were working under Kol until he died. That's about as united as Klingons get.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Evade wrote: »

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

When were the houses fully aligned? And the cloak was balanced by discovery - the spore drive allowed discovery to appear from nowhere and attack. It’s the fact of discovery going missing that made the Klingons more dangerous in the last 9 months.

I’m confused however about mirror stamets. Wasn’t his ship destroyed? How come he was there in the spore universe.

Did he not go back to his ship eventually?

GSPfan

My biggest nit pick ever was First Contact. Why did the Borg ship travel all the way to Earth to then time travel and give them a chance to stop them when they could have just time travelled in the Delta quadrant and travelled to Earth afterwards when starfleet didn’t exist.

Answer: It’s not real, relax.

Goodshape

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m confused however about mirror stamets. Wasn’t his ship destroyed? How come he was there in the spore universe.

Did he not go back to his ship eventually?

His ship, meaning Discovery? I don't think he was stationed there in the mirror universe. He woke from his coma on the palace ship which is where I assumed he had always been working.

Evade

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

When were the houses fully aligned?

Under Kol. Or as aligned as Klingons get anyway, they were following his lead and at least trying to work together weren't they?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And the cloak was balanced by discovery - the spore drive allowed discovery to appear from nowhere and attack. It’s the fact of discovery going missing that made the Klingons more dangerous in the last 9 months.

That is a good point.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

My biggest nit pick ever was First Contact. Why did the Borg ship travel all the way to Earth to then time travel and give them a chance to stop them when they could have just time travelled in the Delta quadrant and travelled to Earth afterwards when starfleet didn’t exist.

That's a fair criticism and I might have a few ideas start up a thread and we can discuss it.

GSPfan wrote: »

Answer: It’s not real, relax.

I know.

expectationlost

vok is still vok, he killed the doctor how can they forgive? were the crew not told?

The_Valeyard

GSPfan wrote: »

My biggest nit pick ever was First Contact. Why did the Borg ship travel all the way to Earth to then time travel and give them a chance to stop them when they could have just time travelled in the Delta quadrant and travelled to Earth afterwards when starfleet didn’t exist.

Answer: It’s not real, relax.

Other answer?

Timey Whimey, wibbley wobbly.

AtomicHorror

expectationlost wrote: »

vok is still vok, he killed the doctor how can they forgive? were the crew not told?

The Tyler personality is in control fully. Voq is dead. L'Rell had to kill him to relieve his suffering.

spookwoman

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

Remember though there is the Vulcan hello where the Vulcans just used to destroy the Kingon ships at first sight. He also used burnham to try and integrate humans into vulcan life. He's using Georgiou to get the klingons, i'm thinking she may try to join the klingons and use them against the federation.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

At that point when the houses were unified, I don't think that the cloaking device was as universal as it is now; IIRC only the Ship of the Dead had it, and when Kor seized power he used it as a bargaining tool to gain fealty from the other houses. Before that the unified Klingons were 'only' attacking with regular, uncloaked ships.

Nor do I think the strategy versus chaos argument necessarily holds; history - and current events - are full of analogous situations where the presumed superior faction, usually more technically and strategically acute, are pegged back and struggle against a more chaotic, guerrilla force; heck, the notion of an enemy hiding in in the shadows before attacking mercilessly is a depressingly real situation what with the extremist cells attacking various public events in major EU cities using simple tools such as vans and knives. Couple that with the Federation's known stance of being a pacifist, defensive organisation, and any ruthless attack is only going to be multiplied.

Spear

I'm beginning to think the entire series consists of just screwing over Burnham repeatedly and nothing else.

She makes the right call at the Battle of the Binary Stars, but nope, gets her captain killed, convicted, labelled mutineer and blamed for everything.

Finds a new captain, wait, nope, he's evil.

Meets a nice lad, wait, nope, he's a Klingon.

Finds a new Georgiou, wait, nope, she's feeding her a Kelpian.

And now back to fighting Klingons, wait, nope, she now has the indignity of choking down her objections and let evil Georgiou be the hero.

Optimus Prime

I cant understand the logic of making the emperor captain of the ship, its akin to making hitler the captain. it makes no sense. yeh i get she is probably going to blow up kronos, but get advice off her, dont make her the captain, she has enslaved hundreds of races and killed millions.

I also thought it was a bit harsh of suru to threaten the transport chief with treason if he mentions anything about the emperor being on board! I get it, that he has to keep it quite, he could have just said you are ordered not to mention anything about this, but he threatens the guy!

I find some of the turns and twists in this just to be very hard turns, they dont flow right from a story point of view. they are making these huge twists and letting fans just fill in the holes with theory and speculation on the internet.

I do love the show though!

Doodah7

spookwoman wrote: »

i'm thinking she may try to join the klingons and use them against the federation.

This. The mindset of the Terrans is more closely aligned with that of the Klingons than of the Federation. It is possible that she sees a kindred spirit in the Kilingons and will switch sides.

pixelburp

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I cant understand the logic of making the emperor captain of the ship, its akin to making hitler the captain. it makes no sense. yeh i get she is probably going to blow up kronos, but get advice off her, dont make her the captain, she has enslaved hundreds of races and killed millions. [...]

I'd say the logic is that the Fed are turning to a ruthless military leader who will do the things they can't or won't. Presumably the escape hatch then is that they can disavow her behaviour after the fact. I'm also guessing that Saru / Burnham will be the ones to fight her if she goes too far (she is absolutely going to go too far).

knucklehead6

Doodah7 wrote: »

This. The mindset of the Terrans is more closely aligned with that of the Klingons than of the Federation. It is possible that she sees a kindred spirit in the Kilingons and will switch sides.

nope. She said it in the episode, they are a cancer. Not a chance will she join forces with them