Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, the War Within" [** SPOILERS **]

Sad Professor

Discuss!

hal9550

Looks like im first!

So for me, a weaker episode but not a bad one!? id say 6/10

I didnt see the 'twist' at the end coming, although i suppose it was obvious

im still ENTIRELY unsure about ASH/VOQ - there was an Ash.. is he dead? is that Voqs body with Ashes 'bits'?? ALl a little farfetched, but i do have faith
Coming to the end of the season now so i will say this

I REALLY LIKE ST DISCOVERY.. After JJ Trek, and what amounted to a reboot, i was very disappointed, and genuinely thought we would never have another Star Trek TV show set in our timeline.. But discovery, retcons aside, is fantastic.

FutureGuy

Excellent again. Different pacing but they have set the final episode up for one of the greatest finales in trek history.

You know what the absolute best thing about it is? At the end of it all, you can easily see how canon (visuals aside) is going to remain intact after all the concerns. The writers were spot on from the very beginning.

• Discovery's jump to the mirror universe is going to be buried and classified.
  
• Sarek and Michael's relationship is going to come to a fractured end as he is going behind Michael's back essentially. Michael will go against everyone again and save Qronos - against her captain, a woman who is like her mother and a Vulcan who is like her father, becuase it is the right thing to do. You can imagine Sarek telling Spock that we do not speak of Michael again, something Spock brings with him through life.
  
• They will have enough spore material to get into and out of Qronos (or perhaps Discovery gets destroyed) and that will be the end of the DASH drive.
  
• If they somehow wrap up the Klingon ship redesign (the house reuniting and creating a new Klingon battlefleet), then it would be perfect.

corkie

Star Trek: Discovery Episode 14 Review - The War Without, the War Within


Another enjoyable dramatic episode. Not much action except for the spore planet Terraforming.

Varik

Did not think there was an episode this week, thought it was a 13 episode season/half-season and the last one was either a mid-season or end of season cliff hanger.

corkie

Varik wrote: »

Did not think there was an episode this week, thought it was a 13 episode season/half-season and the last one was either a mid-season or end of season cliff hanger.

Sorry to disappoint you, but next week is the season Final!

Only 15 Episodes to the season!

_Kaiser_

Watched it there now.. decent enough, but

a bit much that they'd give command of Discovery to the Emperor - who really they have no reason whatsoever to trust and who I'm not convinced has decided to help out purely for the promise of freedom. Someone who headed the Terran Empire would have to be a bit more resourceful than that themselves

hal9550

i agree its slightly odd - seems more logical that she will use Discoverys Spore drive to jump home first chance she gets - she probably has a craving for Kelpian, so Saru better watch out!

Evade

Not great this week. I think everyone bar Burnham is way too quick to forgive Ash. The dilemma of using up the spores sure did have long lasting consequences. And why did the ISS Discovery cross over again?

I don't buy the explanation on how the Federation lost either. The Klingons are likely fighting themselves as much as they are Starfleet. The have no central coordination this should be easy. The only real explanation is Starfleet is too afraid or too incompetent to fight the war properly.

Was the Andorian Admiral's mirror the one at the alien rebel council in the mirror universe?

Oh and another instance of Star Trek writer's having no sense of scale, 100AU is about 2.5 time the distance from Pluto to the Sun the Klingons are already at the Sol system it's too late to pull back to defend Earth now. Also why is there a planet there?

FutureGuy wrote: »

Discovery's jump to the mirror universe is going to be buried and classified.

It does kind of beg the question why Kirk's wasn't covered up for the same reason and his method of crossing over desn't require stealing a classified(?) starship.

FutureGuy wrote: »

They will have enough spore material to get into and out of Qronos (or perhaps Discovery gets destroyed) and that will be the end of the DASH drive.

DASH drive is bordering on magical now, let's jump inside a planet. but I'm glad the name is catching on.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Watched it there now.. decent enough, but a bit much that they'd give command of Discovery to the Emperor - who really they have no reason whatsoever to trust and who I'm not convinced has decided to help out purely for the promise of freedom. Someone who headed the Terran Empire would have to be a bit more resourceful than that themselves

Have her do navigation from her quarters seems like the more sane solution. In fact how much navigation is required? Here's the coordinates now jump.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

Not great this week. I think everyone bar Burnham is way too quick to forgive Ash. The dilemma of using up the spores sure did have long lasting consequences. And why did the ISS Discovery cross over again?

When USS Discovery entered the mirror universe, they were swapped in place with the ISS Discovery. And Captain Killy didn't hold up against the Klingons, which is a tad disappointing.

Evade

Spear wrote: »

When USS Discovery entered the mirror universe, they were swapped in place with the ISS Discovery. And Captain Killy didn't hold up against the Klingons, which is a tad disappointing.

I know when it happened but there's no reason why. The other instances of people or things swapping had both versions doing the same thing at the same time under an odd circumstance, an ion storm in both cases. ISS Discovery has no DASH drive therefore no reason to swap.

Spear

Evade wrote: »

I know when it happened but there's no reason why. The other instances of people or things swapping had both versions doing the same thing at the same time under an odd circumstance, an ion storm in both cases. ISS Discovery has no DASH drive therefore no reason to swap.

Wizards did it. Or since this is sci-fi, space wizards clearly.

There's no logic really, it just chops off a loose end. Equally it's not even internally consistent, the spore drive that got them there, also got them back without the need for it.

Slydice

This was a good strong episode for one just before a finale.

It developed out where people are going into it. They transitioned out of the mirror universe just fine.

We know the setup now so it's where they take it matter. The preview for the finale looks different than what I expected at the end of this episode though.

I figured near the start it was either ask yer wan for help, or go back in time. looks like it's the former.

oh my god i was so angry at everyone getting on michael's case about ash.
hey you know the guy you love who lied to you and tried to kill you. THINK OF HOW SORRY HE IS AND GET OVER IT OR ELSE YOU'LL REGRET IT FOREVER HIS LIFE IS GOING TO BE SOOO SAAAAD NOW NEVERMIND POOR STAMETS' BF
stfu tilly. i like you tilly but stfu.
and then tyler himself going YOURE JUST LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE
eh i'm pretty sure attempted fcuking murder is a perfectly valid excuse you fcuking cretin. she probably has ptsd just from your face.
and THEN he has the nerve to go 'but srsly will u help me'
i'm glad she told him to fcuk off and figure it out himself

don't know about phillipa actually pretending to be captain. surely she hates the federation so much she'd never wear the uniform. i suppose she wants freedom more



but despite all my ranting i thought it was a good ep. it's like a movie. i love saru now he's great

Goodshape

Thought that was great! Less action packed but that's not a bad thing. I like this pace too.

Good to see Saru in command and the ship functioning post-Lorca. Bodes well for a (post-war?) Season 2. The admiral and Sarak were a welcome return too.

I hope Ash/Voq pays off in the end because just having Ash moping about is a bit of a drag. Not sure I could care less at the moment whether himself (themselves?) and Michael patch things up, just hope it doesn't take too much screen time.

I do like the Federation attitude shining through with the crew's willingness to forgive, or at least accept, and move forward. Although maybe the dialogue is just a little heavy handed at times.

The science seems a bit (or very) unconvincing most of the time. I guess maybe there's a case of selective memory and rose-tinted glasses w/r/t the older shows, but I'd have liked them to be a bit smarter with it in general. Or maybe science from 200 years in the future would look pretty magical to us anyway. /shrug

Nice setup for the final anyway! Looking forward to it

Sad Professor

I thought killing off Georgiou/Yeoh was a terrible mistake, so I was very pleased with this episode's turn of events. Hopefully they will find some way to keep her around for next season.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

I think everyone bar Burnham is way too quick to forgive Ash.

That's the Federation, though. It's exactly in their nature. Particularly the humans.

I don't buy the explanation on how the Federation lost either. The Klingons are likely fighting themselves as much as they are Starfleet. The have no central coordination this should be easy. The only real explanation is Starfleet is too afraid or too incompetent to fight the war properly.

The explanation that there were two many individual factions to fight? I thought that was fine, really. Had the impression the Klingon's were racing each other to conquer worlds, more than they were actually fighting each other. And there was also the cloaking technology! Starfleet had no antidote to that until now, with Discovery's return.

Have her do navigation from her quarters seems like the more sane solution. In fact how much navigation is required? Here's the coordinates now jump.

It might have just been the terms she dictated? Or, 'simply' (not really that simple), she wanted her freedom, as we heard, but Starfleet couldn't let out that she was a mirror universe counterpart, so they announce her as back from the dead, she'll fulfil her side of the deal, and then... sci-fi things will happen and... eh, *waves hands*.

It does seem a little over the top.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

The explanation that there were two many individual factions to fight? I thought that was fine, really. Had the impression the Klingon's were racing each other to conquer worlds, more than they were actually fighting each other. And there was also the cloaking technology! Starfleet had no antidote to that until now, with Discovery's return.

That was the explanation but I don't think it's a good one. The suicide bomber tactics work well asymmetrically but any fleet engagement should be a no brainer win for Starfleet. If the implication that the Klingons are taking and holding territory as 24 factions that don't support each other is true it should be easy for Starfleet to muster up a fleet capable of liberating one system and destroy as much of the Klingon Force there as possible mop up and move on to liberate the next system while also leaving some small defensive forces at more high value targets.

Let's take some numbers off the top of my head. Starfleet has 600 ships and the Klingons in total have 1000 ships which on average are roughly of equal ability bar the cloak. The Klingons have nearly a 2:1 advantage but they're not united. For the sake of argument I'll have the ships be distributed evenly among the houses so each house gets 42 ships. Starfleet takes 100 ships and organises them into a liberation fleet like I mentioned above and distributes the rest into smaller defensive fleets tasked to protect various vital resources. Now each engagement that the liberation fleet takes against a single house has a 2:1 advantage in favour of Starfleet. Now these numbers could be way off but if the scales were to heavily in favour of the Klingons they would have steamrolled Starfleet when they were a united force.

The Discovery being part of the liberation fleet would probably be much more entertaining to watch (if a little too DS9-y) than pulling a deus ex scientia on Qo'NoS.

GSPfan

You aren’t giving the Cloaking advantage enough credit lads. No matter how unorganised the Klingons are they can just appear out of nowhere and attack you.

The production values of that episode was amazing. This show is absolutely nailing it in my opinion.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

You aren’t giving the Cloaking advantage enough credit lads. No matter how unorganised the Klingons are they can just appear out of nowhere and attack you.

It's good but not that good. If they're going to defend territory they have to defend it. Sitting around with the cloak up does nothing and they're (supposed to be) vulnerable between dropping the cloak and raising the shields. It's great for a small sneak attack somewhere vulnerable or a suicide run but in a prolonged fight not so much. And now that Discovery is back the cloak isn't as effective as it was in the beginning of the series.

The_Valeyard

I liked it. A good episode.

A guess who we now, why Starbase One will be a super fortress later on.

pixelburp

I think it was a hot mess, an entertaining one, but a mess all the same. Feels like the show is burning through its arcs at a rate of knots, and I wonder if it's for a partial reset in season 2. The last few episodes have had just the slightest whiff of hasty rewrites. The war stuff feels so muddled too: how can losing 20% of territory leave the klingons nearing victory?

Saru must be so ticked off at this stage; captaining like a pro, even having to pick up the slack of an admiral, only to have faux-Georghiu take over, with probably tragic results.

Goodshape

pixelburp wrote: »

The last few episodes have had just the slightest whiff of hasty rewrites.

I liked the episode a lot but yeah – definitely feeling that. Less Klingons and finish up that Ash/Voq thing as quickly as possible. It's left a bit of a gap and resulted in some awkward scenes, and even a sub-40 minute episode a while back.

I'd say things got moved around and retooled a bit after the November/December break. Would be interested to know how much truth there is to that and what, if anything, the original plan was for Ash/Voq.

But the good still outweighs the bad imo. Aside from last week's superb action scenes, I thought this week was actually a bit stronger in most other areas.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

It's good but not that good. If they're going to defend territory they have to defend it. Sitting around with the cloak up does nothing and they're (supposed to be) vulnerable between dropping the cloak and raising the shields. It's great for a small sneak attack somewhere vulnerable or a suicide run but in a prolonged fight not so much. And now that Discovery is back the cloak isn't as effective as it was in the beginning of the series.

This is the first time the Federation has seen the cloaking device in action. Applying your 50 years of Star Trek viewing knowledge about cloaking devices to this war is not applicable. It’s an unmercifully relentless warrior race who attack targets with wreckless cruelty. The lack of tactical planning from the Klingons makes it impossible to predict, as they eluded too, so they are struggling to defend it.

And yes of course Discovery being back changes things, that’s the whole point of what they have been doing. My point above was in reply to others saying the Klingons shouldn’t be winning the war if they aren’t organised.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

how can losing 20% of territory leave the klingons nearing victory?

All but 20% in Klingon hands no?

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

This is the first time the Federation has seen the cloaking device in action. Applying your 50 years of Star Trek viewing knowledge about cloaking devices to this war is not applicable. It’s an unmercifully relentless warrior race who attack targets with wreckless cruelty. The lack of tactical planning from the Klingons makes it impossible to predict, as they eluded too, so they are struggling to defend it.

And yes of course Discovery being back changes things, that’s the whole point of what they have been doing. My point above was in reply to others saying the Klingons shouldn’t be winning the war if they aren’t organised.

See, the problem is you can't have it both ways. You can't have the warrior race with tactical superiority raiding willy nilly bring the Federation to it's knees while a few months ago the same warrior race with a united with a goal of bringing the federation to its knees failed. If house suicide-bomber is ordered to destroy a starbase for a strategic reason there's no reason they wouldn't do it by cloaked suicide ship. In fact it would probably be less costly to the Klingons than a regular frontal assault. The same with house set-the-atmosphere-on-fire being ordered to pacify a planet, set the atmosphere on fire and job done. Unless your implying that the old leadership wasn't willing to use these tactics for reasons, in which case it's still kind of sloppy writing.

GSPfan

I don’t think this episode has been any different than the whole season with regard to “burning through arcs”.

It feels like there has been a two or three episode arc throughout. I absolutely love the speed at which they are pivoting from one direction to the next. It is mental and comes across as unintentional but I think it is working a treat.

Maybe it’s just the new model they’ve tried for Star Trek on tv. Sure doesn’t Spock say “If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the solution.”

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

a few months ago the same warrior race with a united with a goal of bringing the federation to its knees failed.

Did they fail? It was almost a full year ago and when Discovery vanished, taking vital information with it, I thought the Klingons were said to have the upper hand – specifically because of the cloaking device.

Evade

Does the entire Klingon fleet even have cloaking devices? The technology has only been widely known in the empire for about 18 months.

flazio

Ok, why does Empress Georgiu have to take the Captains chair? Why can't the admiral take advice from her quarters and command the ship herself?

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

Did they fail? It was almost a full year ago and when Discovery vanished, taking vital information with it, I thought the Klingons were said to have the upper hand – specifically because of the cloaking device.

Upper hand sure but they didn't seem to be making much in the way territorial gains.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

See, the problem is you can't have it both ways. You can't have the warrior race with tactical superiority raiding willy nilly bring the Federation to it's knees while a few months ago the same warrior race with a united with a goal of bringing the federation to its knees failed.

What? I think you need to rewatch this season as you are missing the whole point of what is going on with the Klingons.

So when we first encounter the Klingons they are seperate houses warring with each other with no real incentive to attack the federation.

T-Kuvma comes along with cloaking technology and with the help of Burnham pissing them all off he manages to convince them to attack the federation.

Armed with the cloak they would have wiped out the federation if T-Kuvma survived and united them, but even with him dead and them not fully united, they still have maintained a desire to destroy the federation.

The point is that the cloak is the single most devistating weapon in their arsenal and the reason Discovery sacrificed everything to find a way to nulify it. To be surprised that the Klingons are winning a war even as a dis functional force is not respectful to the tactical advantage the cloak gives.

GSPfan

flazio wrote: »

Ok, why does Empress Georgiu have to take the Captains chair? Why can't the admiral take advice from her quarters and command the ship herself?

I have a strong suspicion she is being used as a convenient pawn in a plan to destroy Kronos. The idea that they are going to map targets and do a strategic attack is a distraction for a plan to destroy their home world.

You seen the admirals reaction to a space station being destroyed, she was devastated and beaten, and the federation morality is slipping away.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

What? I think you need to rewatch this season as you are missing the whole point of what is going on with the Klingons.

So when we first encounter the Klingons they are seperate houses warring with each other with no real incentive to attack the federation.

T-Kuvma comes along with cloaking technology and with the help of Burnham pissing them all off he manages to convince them to attack the federation.

Armed with the cloak they would have wiped out the federation if T-Kuvma survived and united them, but even with him dead and them not fully united, they still have maintained a desire to destroy the federation.

The point is that the cloak is the single most devistating weapon in their arsenal and the reason Discovery sacrificed everything to find a way to nulify it. To be surprised that the Klingons are winning a war even as a dis functional force is not respectful to the tactical advantage the cloak gives.

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

AtomicHorror

flazio wrote: »

Ok, why does Empress Georgiu have to take the Captains chair? Why can't the admiral take advice from her quarters and command the ship herself?

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

GSPfan

In fact don’t be surprised to see those terraforming drill things repurposed and used on Kronos to destroy the planet. The use of them to create life on one planet just to be used to destroy another would be a standard plot point.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Perhaps Sarek's plan is that Georgiou will be the scapegoat for the destruction of Qo'noS. Let her do her thing, then act shocked and "out" her as an imposter from the mirror universe? Or skip that bit and simply hold her responsible as if she's the original Georgiou, safe in the knowledge that her claims to be an Emperor will sound like insanity, and that the original Georgiou will of course not have to suffer the punishment.

That's a good point and very nasty. Burnham definitely wouldn't be happy to have her mentor's name dragged through the mud in the history books like that.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

He never had them united though, or at least not long enough to do any damage.

This is getting ridiculous. No Trek has ever been subjected to this level of nit picking, to justify dislike, as far as I can remember.

The cloak has always been a weird one. No way would the federation ever have signed the treaty of Algeron preventing cloak research. Why not? Because it's a bloody war winner. Fleets of ships could park up at Earth and start hammering away.

It would take the disorganisation of the houses to prevent such an attack, as it would require huge numbers.


Complaining about this yet not blasting TNG for the Borg not just sending 2 ships, DS9 for using literal Deus Ex with destroying Dominion fleets, Voyager for... well Voyager is blasted for reset button mashing

Or Treks biggest flaws of
1. Sub light speed weapons (like Last Jedi final battle)
2. Transporter not used as a weapon
3. And biggest of all... Only ever having one or two ships defending Earth (insert core planet as required), or DS9 at the height of Dominion cold/hot war

Trek is full of these inconsistencies but we ignore them for story reasons.
Attacking Discovery for actually showing how devastating a cloaked fleet would be?? Come on

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

That's a good point and very nasty. Burnham definitely wouldn't be happy to have her mentor's name dragged through the mud in the history books like that.

Probably not, and while Saru may follow orders and keep silent, it's hard to know how Tyler will react to this turn of events.

Cornwell does not know it, but Tyler will immediately realise Georgiou is an imposter.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

I don't think you read what I wrote. If the cloak is the be all and end all of military technology how did Kol not wipe out the Federation when he had the houses united? It doesn't make sense. I know what the reason the writers gave is and I don't buy it.

Because they had one ship with it at the start

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Attacking Discovery for actually showing how devastating a cloaked fleet would be?? Come on

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they had one ship with it at the start

By the time the tomb ship was destroyed they already had multiple (most?) ships with cloaks didn't they?

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they had one ship with it at the start

Yep, and also Kol was an idiot.

Once he did get control of the Sarcophagus, rather than distribute the cloaking technology and get the Klingon fleet ready quickly, he seems to have spent his time playing the houses off each other and dangling the promise of cloaking tech as a prize to whoever best pleased him.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

They haven’t been united. T-Kuvma died and the Klingons never really united.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

They haven’t been united. T-Kuvma died and the Klingons never really united.

They were working under Kol until he died. That's about as united as Klingons get.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Evade wrote: »

I'm holding Discovery to its own standard. The cloak is a devastating weapon of war when used on a whim by a bunch of unaligned houses and not that great an advantage when used by a single force wit ha united goal and strategic plan. This is a contradiction.

When were the houses fully aligned? And the cloak was balanced by discovery - the spore drive allowed discovery to appear from nowhere and attack. It’s the fact of discovery going missing that made the Klingons more dangerous in the last 9 months.

I’m confused however about mirror stamets. Wasn’t his ship destroyed? How come he was there in the spore universe.

Did he not go back to his ship eventually?

GSPfan

My biggest nit pick ever was First Contact. Why did the Borg ship travel all the way to Earth to then time travel and give them a chance to stop them when they could have just time travelled in the Delta quadrant and travelled to Earth afterwards when starfleet didn’t exist.

Answer: It’s not real, relax.

Goodshape

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’m confused however about mirror stamets. Wasn’t his ship destroyed? How come he was there in the spore universe.

Did he not go back to his ship eventually?

His ship, meaning Discovery? I don't think he was stationed there in the mirror universe. He woke from his coma on the palace ship which is where I assumed he had always been working.

Evade

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

When were the houses fully aligned?

Under Kol. Or as aligned as Klingons get anyway, they were following his lead and at least trying to work together weren't they?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

And the cloak was balanced by discovery - the spore drive allowed discovery to appear from nowhere and attack. It’s the fact of discovery going missing that made the Klingons more dangerous in the last 9 months.

That is a good point.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

My biggest nit pick ever was First Contact. Why did the Borg ship travel all the way to Earth to then time travel and give them a chance to stop them when they could have just time travelled in the Delta quadrant and travelled to Earth afterwards when starfleet didn’t exist.

That's a fair criticism and I might have a few ideas start up a thread and we can discuss it.

GSPfan wrote: »

Answer: It’s not real, relax.

I know.