Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

Podge_irl

prinzeugen wrote: »

The article states "It was blocked by a taxi beforehand".

Physics is the reason a 55m long tram cannot fit on a 45m long bridge, not taxis. Myself and others here said this would happen months ago.

I have yet to see a single Luas go from Westmoreland St to O'Connell St without stopping on the bridge.

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

Phil.x

Podge_irl wrote: »

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

loyatemu

I saw a Luas getting blocked yesterday at OCB (ironically by a DCC van) but as the Luas was trying to access OCB from Westmoreland St, the traffic already on OCB had a red light. If northbound traffic on OCB got a green light at the same time that the Luas got a signal to proceed onto the bridge then the path would be cleared. Currently there's a time lag between these 2 signals, seems like it should be easy enough to fix.

StreetLight

Phil.x wrote: »

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

Tram drivers are not bound by the Rules of the Road. They have their own signalling and marking system. A yellow box means nothing to them, literally.

hmmm

Podge_irl wrote: »

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

Is it 10 meters too short?

devnull

prinzeugen wrote: »

The article states "It was blocked by a taxi beforehand".

Physics is the reason a 55m long tram cannot fit on a 45m long bridge, not taxis. Myself and others here said this would happen months ago.

There is plenty of time for it to get through without stopping if there is nobody committing traffic offences.

Phil.x wrote: »

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

Do you also blame train drivers for not going through a level crossing when a cyclist/motorist blocks it when they have broken lights as well, or do you blame the people who actually caused the issue in the first place by breaking the rules of the road?

You also completely misunderstand the rules that apply to a light rail vehicle and your talk about licenses and penalty points like the tram is the same as a motor vehicle when it simply isn't the case.

Every time that I've seen a LUAS block that yellow box it has been caused by an illegal traffic act or someone doing something stupid ahead of them. The people doing this are the people that should be punished.

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

dashcamdanny

devnull wrote: »

There is plenty of time for it to get through without stopping if there is nobody committing traffic offences.



Do you also blame train drivers for not going through a level crossing when a cyclist/motorist blocks it when they have broken lights as well, or do you blame the people who actually caused the issue in the first place by breaking the rules of the road?

You also completely misunderstand the rules that apply to a light rail vehicle and your talk about licenses and penalty points like the tram is the same as a motor vehicle when it simply isn't the case.

Every time that I've seen a LUAS block that yellow box it has been caused by an illegal traffic act or someone doing something stupid ahead of them. The people doing this are the people that should be punished.



If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

That is not the case all of the time. I was stuck through 3 very long light sequences on fleet street with a full bus yesterday.
A tram was behind a bus trying to go past at the Garda station onto Collages green. The bus could not move as there was no space in front of the yellow box. Tram blocked the box. No one could move till the taxi traffic eased.

SOmthing has to go..

I personally think busses need to come out of there all together. Let the trams and the taxis battle it out, while the majority of people can go about their day.

hmmm

devnull wrote: »

If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

Not sure I fully understand the point, but a level crossing has barriers (usually) - because the planners know full well that flashing lights and a yellow box aren't good enough to stop idiots.

The city centre is rife with taxis using their magical flashing lights, cars stopped in yellow boxes, cars in the wrong lanes, delivery trucks parked everywhere. We are not Geneva.

Podge_irl

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

Grand so - we'll just reduce the roads to Thunderdome rules.

Properly enforce the rules of the road and you'll get compliance pretty quick smart. Irish people are not inherently uniquely incapable of sharing the road with other transport users.

It would help if the focus of reporting was on the moron who blocked the tram and not on the tram blocking traffic as if it was a luas screw up.

devnull

dashcamdanny wrote: »

That is not the case all of the time. I was stuck through 3 very long light sequences on fleet street with a full bus yesterday.
A tram was behind a bus trying to go past at the Garda station onto Collages green. The bus could not move as there was no space in front of the yellow box. Tram blocked the box. No one could move till the taxi traffic eased.

So you're saying the bus, blocked the yellow box which then blocked the tram behind it, which then blocked everything behind it in turn? Doesn't sound like a tram issue to me, tram not being able to get through was a symptom, not the root cause of the issues that you describe.

The big question is why did the bus pull into a yellow box and consider that it would be okay to queue there - surely if there was no room on the road ahead of the yellow box then you don't enter the yellow box in the first place?

devnull

hmmm wrote: »

The city centre is rife with taxis using their magical flashing lights, cars stopped in yellow boxes, cars in the wrong lanes, delivery trucks parked everywhere. We are not Geneva.

My point is I want to do something about all of these things because none of them are acceptable because I believe in treating the causes of a problem since that's the only way to make the problem completely go away and all the other problems that are associated with it.

Simply shortening the LUAS because we don't want to do the hard work to tackle the fundamental problem that is the traffic offences that are allowed day in day out because we lack any proper enforcement of the rules of the road is a typical Irish 'that'll do' solution and illustrates exactly why we are not like Geneva and other cities who actually take traffic enforcement seriously.

I have traveled in many European countries in my time and honestly Dublin is one of the worst, if not the worst city for traffic offences for one simple reason - because the people who are carrying out know they can get away with it, and rather having public transport users suffer the impact of that, it's about time we started punishing the people who are causing the issues and took a zero tolerance approach to them.

But it seems some doctors want to keep on treating the symptoms and are fobbing the patient off and then wonder why the patient is still ill and keeps having relapses.

dashcamdanny

devnull wrote: »

So you're saying the bus, blocked the yellow box which then blocked the tram behind it, which then blocked everything behind it in turn?

The big question is why did the bus pull into a yellow box and consider that it would be okay to queue there? This is exactly the same as taxi drivers who simply treat the yellow bos as an extension of the queue in the non yellow box ahead of it.

No. The bus can not exit from Hawkins street area onto collage green unless the last set of lights are green and the yellow box has 30 feet clear ahead of it. The tram and bus share the same lane. This bus driver would not move unless he had the space to clear the box. In trying to be lawful, he caused a major blockage.

The fact is. This area is so badly designed, busses must break the law and block boxes or they will never move forward in the area. The roads law states you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. This is not possible. Either coming from Hawkins street or Pierce street. You must push out through cycles and taxis or sit for literally hours.

They can change the sequence and small things like that, but it all comes down to volume IMO. Too many busses ..

Pete_Cavan

The Luas obviously got the signal to advance from Westmoreland Street onto OCB only to find that it was unable to continue onto OCS due to the taxi. The only way the Luas driver could have avoided getting stuck on the bridge would have been by staying on Westmoreland Street. Obviously before leaving Westmoreland, the Luas driver didn't know that a taxi would block the box on the other side of the bridge as the taxi probably wasn't even there yet. Unless Luas drivers are given the ability to see the future, there is no way that they can avoid such a situation.

It is clearly the taxi drivers fault.

Hurrache

Podge_irl wrote: »

It would help if the focus of reporting was on the moron who blocked the tram and not on the tram blocking traffic as if it was a luas screw up.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Unless Luas drivers are given the ability to see the future, there is no way that they can avoid such a situation.

But as I said, it was always an inevitably that this would happen and should have been factored in. The Luas can't cross onto O'Connell Street because the junction is blocked or O'Connell Street itself is blocked, so the only obstruction should be to the Luas itself on the bridge, not the south quays and a knock on effect across the south city.

Simple and obvious solution was not to have the Luas longer than the bridge. No matter what system you design, be it transport or IT, you factor such things in and create solutions so as not to mess everything else up around it. When it was just cars they could be redirected around the obstruction without too much difficulty, can't happen with a Luas.

Take for example there's an accident at that junction, or as often happens, a protest. What happens then? The Luas is stuck on the bridge for an hour or so, completely tying up the south quays, Westmoreland Street and all approaches for miles.

devnull

Hurrache wrote: »

Simple and obvious solution was not to have the Luas longer than the bridge. No matter what system yo design, be it transport or IT, you factor such things in and create solutions so as not to mess everything else up around it.

Simple and obvious solution is to enforce the rules of the road to the road users and have a proper transport/traffic police to deal with these kind of situations so that the private cars and the taxis do not clog up our city centre who are allowed to do anything they want because the Gardai either can't be bothered or don't have the resources given to them to do anything about it.

But this is Ireland and actually taking the required action is far too much trouble so instead we'll just come up with the easiest 'that'll do' measure rather than the ones that might require a bit of effort but will have a better outcome even if it might involve some tough decisions and continue treating the patient for their symptoms rather than actually dealing with the root cause.

Traffic offending has been a problem for many years now, it's not something that has been caused by the LUAS, sure, having the LUAS there shows it up more since now it has a far bigger impact, but I was using the bus for years to get to and from work, and the idiots driving between lanes, blocking up yellow boxes and clogging up bus lanes and crossing over lanes at the last minute normally causing crashes and illegally parked taxis and cars breaking red lights is nothing new.

We can either blame it on the LUAS or we can deal with the underlying problem that DCC has ignored for the best part of a decade because of the car park, hotel and taxi lobby who they seem to care far more about than the likes of you or me.

Hurrache

devnull wrote: »

Simple and obvious solution is to enforce the rules of the road to the road users and have a proper transport/traffic police to deal with these kind of situations so that the private cars and the taxis do not clog up our city centre who are allowed to do anything they want because the Gardai either can't be bothered or don't have the resources given to them to do anything about it.

But this is Ireland

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over. Nobody claimed that the bad behaviour has been caused by the Luas.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

However we do agree with what you've said re the taxi, carpark and hotel lobby having undue influence on city centre planning. Can't remember who it was, one of the DCC councillors who was on the relevant planning committee, was on Pat Kenny Wednesday morning and he was insisting that the issues people see every day don't exist. When you have someone with an attitude like that on the transport committee the city is never going to progress.

Pete_Cavan

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

devnull

Hurrache wrote: »

It's not that this is Ireland, it's that this is reality. These things happen despite the best will in the world, the world over. Nobody claimed that the bad behaviour has been caused by the Luas.

It's simply bad planning. Having the Luas fit the length of the bridge I don't think is a "that'll do measure", it's common sense.

It's common sense to move all of the private traffic out of the area and put the public transport users first, but it isn't happening because of the fact there are too many vested interests that DCC do not want to annoy and no doubt their friends in ABP will also not help the public out with this so I have little faith in the public transport users being put first anytime soon.

With all due respect this is about Ireland because of the fact that I see this kind of stuff go on in Ireland far more than I do in other countries and also the fact is in Ireland the powers that be simply lack the will on enforcing the rules of the road, either because they don't have the resources or they cannot be bothered to do so because it's far too much trouble and effort.

The amount of rule breaking is always directly linked to the chance of getting away with it and the potential punishment that one could face. In Ireland you are almost certain to get away with it and the potential punishment is nothing because all a Garda will do, in the 1% of cases they do something about it, is go over to a motorist and tell him not to do it again and the same car will be back doing it the next day because he cannot get away with it.

I once told a Garda who sat and watched traffic offences bring the quays to it's knees a few years ago and having a good laugh about it on the streets that instead of laughing he should go out there and punish those who were breaking the rules of the road. His argument was he was using his discretion as is his right as a Gardai.

We need less discretion, more zero tolerance on those who break the rules by giving out penalty points and fines and end the culture of either ignoring it and tapping someone on the shoulder and telling them not to do it again. Once they realise that they can no longer get away with it and it might lead to a driving ban if they don't stop rather than a telling off, you'll soon see a change in behaviour.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

If you have faith in ABP allowing these things to go-ahead, then you have a lot more faith in me. Personally I'm rather cynical seeing some of the ABP decisions over the years and with the car, taxi and hotel lobby weighing in, I can't imagine for one moment ABP are going to face them down in a way that DCC refuse to.

Hurrache

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why is it that a car blocking a Luas is simply something that happens while a Luas blocking a car it is bad planning?

If the traffic coming from Bachelors Walk was limited to just public traffic, as the NTA planned, than the chances of "one of these things" happening is greatly reduced. Perhaps the solution is to actually implement the plan?

I didn't say a Luas blocking a car is bad planning, I said not taking into account that if the Luas does get blocked or held up, as it inevitably will, it's bad planning not to factor in that if the Luas fit the bridge then there'll be no knock on effect. I'm sure the planners did actually look at this, but were naive in not believing it will be an issue.

Podge_irl

I fundamentally do not agree that a core public transport infrastructure should be compromised because of expected law breaking by private citizens. If cars are punished, and punished heavily, for causing such obstruction it will cease very quickly. The reporting of the incident was appallingly bad and should have had much more focus on the individual who caused all the mess.

While the bridge is the most obvious and most harmful location, it is not exactly the only one were a law-breaking car can cause the LUAS to block other traffic either.

Phil.x

dashcamdanny wrote: »

No. The bus can not exit from Hawkins street area onto collage green unless the last set of lights are green and the yellow box has 30 feet clear ahead of it. The tram and bus share the same lane. This bus driver would not move unless he had the space to clear the box. In trying to be lawful, he caused a major blockage.

The fact is. This area is so badly designed, busses must break the law and block boxes or they will never move forward in the area. The roads law states you must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping. This is not possible. Either coming from Hawkins street or Pierce street. You must push out through cycles and taxis or sit for literally hours.

They can change the sequence and small things like that, but it all comes down to volume IMO. Too many busses ..

But busses carry more people.

bebeman

It would all be fixed tomorrow and traffic would move butter smooth if the lazy incompetent Garda did the job they are paid to do, enforce the rules of the road.
End of discussion.

Stephen15

bebeman wrote: »

It would all be fixed tomorrow and traffic would move butter smooth if the lazy incompetent Garda did the job they are paid to do, enforce the rules of the road.
End of discussion.

I wouldn't disagree with you there I have to say

MJohnston

I'd imagine the trouble is the Guards are being told from on high that they should better spend their budgets tackling hypothetical terrorism, and more urgently drug gangland feuds, than traffic enforcement.

Which makes me seriously wonder why they aren't in the business of supporting automated enforcement. Surely a network of red light cameras, yellow box cameras, restricted turn cameras, bus lane cameras, speed cameras, etc. etc. would help them generate enough budget to actually overcome the expenditure.

fritzelly

One guard at each junction would probably make their wages back and more each day

bebeman

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd imagine the trouble is the Guards are being told from on high that they should better spend their budgets tackling hypothetical terrorism, and more urgently drug gangland feuds, than traffic enforcement.
.

They would make the cost of enforcement back 10 fold

fritzelly

bebeman wrote: »

They would make the cost of enforcement back 10 fold

Stop repeating what I just said,

howiya

fritzelly wrote: »

One guard at each junction would probably make their wages back and more each day

It really depends where they are at the junction and obviously longer term you're hoping there'll be a change in driver behaviour so that they don't pay for themselves.

In the old days of operation freeflow they were often standing at the junction preventing violations so there wasn't money made there but it kept yellow boxes clear and the traffic moving. On the other hand you have them the other side of College Green fining motorists and they do make money for the State but it doesn't help the flow of traffic in that instance.

Either way is unlikely to happen in any significant fashion in the near future so we should be looking at fixed cameras with ANPR and fines sent out in the post.

dvdman1

cgcsb wrote: »

An elevated luas would never in a million years get planning approval, primarily because of the urban environment it'd destroy beneath it, and really there is no need, it's must cheaper and hassle free to dish out some car bans, but for some reason we're not capable of that.

Yes it definitely impacts but "destroys" is a bit much, have you seen other cities with light rail elevated, its not bad especially with good architecture, dart elevation we got used to why not luas? Only the congested bits in the centre need elevation it wouldn't be as expensive compared to the yrs of congestion were faced with impacting how much time n money?