Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

AlekSmart

fritzelly wrote: »

So they're admitting that the Luas is the cause of all the congestion that didn't really exist pre Luas

And what exactly is the point of the Plaza (even the name is a joke)? To get people sitting looking at bars, restaurants and crappy old shops. It's nothing like the plazas you would see in other European cities surrounded by coffee shops, and all kinds of interesting shops and usually a good few interesting touristy buildings

Given that we are dealing (coping ?) with a Council which has been reluctant to provide useable seating generally in the City Centre,I cannot see them suddenly shedding the habits of a lifetime.

The city council had hoped to have a pedestrian plaza on College Green with a ban on all east-west traffic, including buses, for the introduction of the Luas.

Irrespective of what the Council had "Hoped",the reality is a situation which, could & should have been fully dealt with BEFORE a sod was turned on BXD.

It is almost as if the Asst CEO,Mr Brady,has just been beamed down into An Lár from a far distant planet and is totally gobsmacked by what he is experiencing.

It is hardly a surprise that Dublin has,so far,failed to capitalize on London's Post-Bexit situation,a failure being rather spetacularly underlined by the antics of this gang. :mad:

prinzeugen

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0205/938569-college-green-luas/

I wonder will a complete closure now take place.

I said a week or two back that this would happen. Plaza by stealth.

They say that they don't have a vendetta against private motor vehicles.

They have a vendetta against ALL motor (or internal combustion engines if you are picky) vehicles, buses included.

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

AlekSmart

prinzeugen wrote: »

I said a week or two back that this would happen. Plaza by stealth.

They say that they don't have a vendetta against private motor vehicles.

They have a vendetta against ALL motor (or internal combustion engines if you are picky) vehicles, buses included.

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

Those who designed and laid-out Georgian Dublin,were possessed of a lot more common-sense and focus than Mr Keegan and his "Team",who have bitterly continued with a crusade to ignore the realities of Life,and replace it with......?

I'm no longer certain that DCC actually have any real plan,or plans at all.

Increasingly,it all appears made up as they go along.

Hurrache

prinzeugen wrote: »

The best use of College Green is for it to be used by people to get from A- B. That is why it was laid out like it is. Not for it to be a wasteland.

It is a wasteland as is, nobody can logically argue otherwise.

lawred2

Bambi wrote: »

So they bottled it and moved the buses rather than cars and taxis

I don't think it will make much of a difference either

cars have been precluded from College Green at busy times for a long while already

whenever I went around that way - it was only buses parked bumper to bumper that I saw

lawred2

AlekSmart wrote: »

Those who designed and laid-out Georgian Dublin,were possessed of a lot more common-sense and focus than Mr Keegan and his "Team",who have bitterly continued with a crusade to ignore the realities of Life,and replace it with......?

I'm no longer certain that DCC actually have any real plan,or plans at all.

Increasingly,it all appears made up as they go along.

those that 'laid out' Georgian Dublin did not have to cater for the not yet invented ICE.

People cycled, walked and traveled around in low speed horse and cart in Georgian Dublin... that sounds rather idyllic to be honest. Compared to what we have now.

punisher5112

Hybrid, and electric buses are the next thing so much cleaner then anything previous.

LeinsterDub

punisher5112 wrote: »

Hybrid, and electric buses are the next thing so much cleaner then anything previous.

Still occupy the same amount of road space.

punisher5112

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Still occupy the same amount of road space.

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

What they done at college green is a design fcuk up and as is actually dangerous.

The two traffic lanes meet and large vehicles cross over opposite sides, cyclists have a lane which yes should be great but no a bus stop is right at the end of it which is near impossible for the driver to see as they must turn sharp to cross to the left.

Cyclists using the tram line heading south and can't be seen be vehicles in traffic lane.

It's actually terrible how it has been laid out.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Actually that isn't true. Trams and rail almost always carry far more passengers then equivalent bus services along the same corridor/route. That is true of both Dart and the two Luas lines, as it is all around the world.

What the issue you have here is you have dozens of different bus routes, coming from different directions/areas trying to merge into one small area. A recipe for disaster. It was a disaster before the Luas came to the city center, which is why we had the bus gate to try and relieve it. But the An Larism of Dublin Bus has long been an issue for the city.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

That inflexibility of trams and rail is also a significant advantage. They can't be rerouted, they mostly can't be bullied out of the way by cars and taxis. Politicians and car park owners can't mess with them too much or have them redirected.

In this inflexibility lies their strength. They are much more reliable and consistent then buses and that is why people love them.

They tend to have a gravity about them that changes all other transport and infrastructure around them. Something buses just can't do.

What we are seeing here is the fight for limited road space.

AlekSmart

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course they do and will always serve more then a tram or train which is fixed on rails.

Buses can divert if needed and extra ones for capacity etc.

Trams and trains are limited as they can't overtake also.

What they done at college green is a design fcuk up and as is actually dangerous.

The two traffic lanes meet and large vehicles cross over opposite sides, cyclists have a lane which yes should be great but no a bus stop is right at the end of it which is near impossible for the driver to see as they must turn sharp to cross to the left.

Cyclists using the tram line heading south and can't be seen be vehicles in traffic lane.

It's actually terrible how it has been laid out.

The two elements bolded in the above post,should be enough to sustain charges of Proffessional Negligence being laid against those Planners who were brave (or dopey) enough to sign off on this project.

The level of (newly) imposed additional risk is off-the-scale,and indicates that no Risk Assessment exercise was carried out on these elements of BXD.

The only priority,it appears,was to reinstate the Bus Stop infrastructure as close as possible to where it was pre BXD,and having achieved that,to whistle a gay tune as they sauntered away.

To suggest that the current layout at Westmoreland St Bus Stop 320,even comes close to being acceptably safe is just plain wrong.

It does not require a University Degree,or membership of the Freemasons,to see this...instead all it requires is a basic National School level of education,and perhaps a Driving Licence.

It is a dangerous and totally unnecessary compromise,and one which has the immediate and ever present potential to result in serious injury or death,simply to maintain the pretence of the Capital City having somewhat competent management,when the reality as laid bare here,proves the opposite.

It may well be that,it will take the appearance of a Senior Planner in the dock of a court,on charges of contributory criminal negligence,to actually bring these people to their senses...but it should never have been allowed to get this far.

"Terrible" does'nt do the situation justice,at all ! :eek:

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Actually that isn't true. Trams and rail almost always carry far more passengers then equivalent bus services along the same corridor/route. That is true of both Dart and the two Luas lines, as it is all around the world.

What the issue you have here is you have dozens of different bus routes, coming from different directions/areas trying to merge into one small area. A recipe for disaster. It was a disaster before the Luas came to the city center, which is why we had the bus gate to try and relieve it. But the An Larism of Dublin Bus has long been an issue for the city.

That inflexibility of trams and rail is also a significant advantage. They can't be rerouted, they mostly can't be bullied out of the way by cars and taxis. Politicians and car park owners can't mess with them too much or have them redirected.

In this inflexibility lies their strength. They are much more reliable and consistent then buses and that is why people love them.

They tend to have a gravity about them that changes all other transport and infrastructure around them. Something buses just can't do.

What we are seeing here is the fight for limited road space.

The issue is not what mode is superior or preferable,but instead a quite simple question of :eek: WHY :eek: are we only now seeing this "fight" for limited road space being engaged in.

7 years ago,before a sod was turned on the BXD project,the dimensions of the LRT vehicles was known,the swept area of the Vehicles known,down to the millimetre,as well as the same details for Buses....all of these elements being central to the simple mathematics of designing and implementing a system whereby ALL of the modes could operate complimentary to each other.

Instead,we barged about,in a fully planned manner,allowing each of the stakeholders to carry on as if nothing as changing,and at the end of it all,we would somehow manage to slip the entire thing together and MAKE it work...easy eh ?

This is not a "Fight" that should ever have come close to being staged,as in a functional Civic Planning arena,it would have been dispensed with as undesireable,unnecessary and anti-social...all elements which it appears,appeal greatly to our current Civic Leadership.

Spanish Eyes

I blame DCC. They did no planning whatsoever for this. But more than likely knew the results.

But maybe they are hiding in the long grass and the unpalatable things to be decided on will have to be implemented now that commuters are complaining big time.

Clever that.

But IMV very unprofessional.

lawred2

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I blame DCC. They did no planning whatsoever for this. But more than likely knew the results.

But maybe they are hiding in the long grass and the unpalatable things to be decided on will have to be implemented now that commuters are complaining big time.

Clever that.

But IMV very unprofessional.

Not so sure.. Irish people are not the greatest at accepting change. So why bother engaging with them?

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

The issue is not what mode is superior or preferable,but instead a quite simple question of :eek: WHY :eek: are we only now seeing this "fight" for limited road space being engaged in.

Hold on their a minute, this fight for limited road space has been going on for decades now. Cars vs Buses vs Taxis vs Cyclists vs Pedestrians.

The cries when Grafton Street was pedestrianised or the bus gate introduced or bus lanes introduced.

This is just a new chapter in this same story.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a minute, this fight for limited road space has been going on for decades now. Cars vs Buses vs Taxis vs Cyclists vs Pedestrians.

The cries when Grafton Street was pedestrianised or the bus gate introduced or bus lanes introduced.

This is just a new chapter in this same story.

All well and good,however in those decades it might have been assumed that we had learned as we progressed.

With the current situation,what we are witnessing,in real time,is the very stark evidence that we have been led and represented by a coterie of professional Civic Managers who downplayed,ignored and manipulated the situation and most certainly did nothing in the way of Leadership to innovate and provide sustainable solutions relevant to Dublin.

Edge tinkering,along with a true lack of comprehension relating to the demands of Urban Living,has left Dublin with a good collection of the elements required for effective Public Transport,but absolutely nobody of note with the ability to combine and operate them.

budgemook

What time in the m does college green get bad? because I haven't seen any problems since Dublin Bus made the route changes.

lawred2

AlekSmart wrote: »

All well and good,however in those decades it might have been assumed that we had learned as we progressed.

With the current situation,what we are witnessing,in real time,is the very stark evidence that we have been led and represented by a coterie of professional Civic Managers who downplayed,ignored and manipulated the situation and most certainly did nothing in the way of Leadership to innovate and provide sustainable solutions relevant to Dublin.

Edge tinkering,along with a true lack of comprehension relating to the demands of Urban Living,has left Dublin with a good collection of the elements required for effective Public Transport,but absolutely nobody of note with the ability to combine and operate them.

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

bebeman

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

All evidence so far suggests that the amateurs could not mess up any worse than the professionals.

StreetLight

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd prefer the direction of a coterie of professional civic managers than amateur part-time self appointed transport experts.

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

lawred2

StreetLight wrote: »

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

It's grand. And it'll get better. As soon as people get the idea that the city center is not a place for their single occupancy vehicles.

bk

bebeman wrote: »

All evidence so far suggests that the amateurs could not mess up any worse than the professionals.

StreetLight wrote: »

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

Not really. I've read most of the reports that have come out of the NTA and they clearly know what they were doing.

They knew this would be an issue and they had a very clear plan for it.

- Turn College Green into a square and thus eliminate the problem of taxis and buses crossing the Luas.
- Redirect Buses up Parliament Street
- Ban cars from the Quays.

Had all that been done, then we wouldn't be having problems know. Instead unfortunately as usual the politicians started meddling and listened to the car parks, hotels, etc. and watered down or completely blocked all of the above and now this mess is the result.

We have a problem with our politicians and planning system, not with our transport planners.

devnull

Everything I have seen about this suggests that it's very much a Dublin City Council and planning problem and something that involves politicians and other interest groups like the car park lobby, the high end hotels, the taxi lobby and a few other groups who are constantly trying to block anything that puts public transport first for their own reasons.

Unfortunately as of yet someone has not had the balls to stand up to these interest groups enough and instead of standing up to them they are trying to accommodate them to the point that they damage the far far higher numbers who use public transport in the city.

The problem is that for too long these groups have had their own way and it's no surprise that they don't want to lose their power that they have had over many years now.

dvdman1

The luas should have been on stilts in the city centre, with modern architecture and glass it wouldn't be that bad..no worse than most road furniture.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

I've read most of the reports that have come out of the NTA and they clearly know what they were doing.

Now this would be a first.

bk wrote: »

They knew this would be an issue and they had a very clear plan for it.

- Turn College Green into a square and thus eliminate the problem of taxis and buses crossing the Luas.
- Redirect Buses up Parliament Street
- Ban cars from the Quays.

Had all that been done, then we wouldn't be having problems know. Instead unfortunately as usual the politicians started meddling and listened to the car parks, hotels, etc. and watered down or completely blocked all of the above and now this mess is the result.

We have a problem with our politicians and planning system, not with our transport planners.

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

MJohnston

dfx- wrote: »

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

So, what's your plan then?

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

Now this would be a first.

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

Only because of poor planning as some bright spark decided that all buses would run through College Green.

Why can't a bus travelling South to West from Leeson Street to The Quays go through the Liberties and around the congested area which is Nassau Street, College Green and Westmoreland Street. Would you drive through College Green if driving in the CC? No you'd go around it using other streets under utilised by buses why can't it be same for buses with bus priority measures.

Ernest

dvdman1 wrote: »

The luas should have been on stilts in the city centre, with modern architecture and glass it wouldn't be that bad..no worse than most road furniture.

Correct. It was crazy to force large electric trains/trams through the city centre streets in a city like Dublin instead of putting them off-street through either underground or on stilts (elevated), as you say.

Remember too that the existing DART is an ELEVATED Railway in the City Centre all the way between Ballsbridge and Clontarf (Lansdowne Rd to Killester stations). that's why it can run so efficiently without disrupting traffic.

dfx-

MJohnston wrote: »

So, what's your plan then?

The plan should start with getting the overwhelming majority through as quick a possible, the overwhelming majority is by bus. Not moving them around or *sigh* closing the main pinch point of the city area off into a square.

Whoever thought of that mad idea and whoever supported it to this point should be kept a long way away from any plan.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Only because of poor planning as some bright spark decided that all buses would run through College Green.

Why can't a bus travelling South to West from Leeson Street to The Quays go through the Liberties and around the congested area which is Nassau Street, College Green and Westmoreland Street. Would you drive through College Green if driving in the CC? No you'd go around it using other streets under utilised by buses why can't it be same for buses with bus priority measures.

A bus might go that long winded way of getting through. That is an alternative, is it better?

20-30 routes meandering around the Liberties and major routes with key pick up stops like the 66s, 39s and 67s is another thing entirely.

MJohnston

dfx- wrote: »

The plan should start with getting the overwhelming majority through as quick a possible, the overwhelming majority is by bus. Not moving them around or *sigh* closing the main pinch point of the city area off into a square.

Whoever thought of that mad idea and whoever supported it to this point should be kept a long way away from any plan.

With respect, that's just a restatement of the problem, not an actual plan for solving it.