2018-2027 National Development Plan

prunudo

spacetweek wrote: »

I can only assume that they will do it as many phases and 2020 is when phase 1 will start.

This is what I’d do:
Ph.1. Complete service roads along Kilmac-GOTD (can be done quickly)
Ph.2. Widen Bray BP to Kilmac
Ph.3. Numerous changes at Kilpeddar
Ph.4. Changes to NTMK junctions and redesignate to M11

Also: Widen M50 Sandyford-Bray.

How Cherrywood got the go ahead without 3 laning the remaining section of M50 is beyond me.

veryangryman

Where is the N4 Longford to Mullingar? I thought this was being pushed

BelfastVanMan

veryangryman wrote: »

Where is the N4 Longford to Mullingar? I thought this was being pushed

Exactly; I think I remember Darth Varadkar personally stating a year or so ago that this was to be progressed as soon as possible....

nordydan

jvan wrote: »

How Cherrywood got the go ahead without 3 laning the remaining section of M50 is beyond me.

They offered to do it at the time and were turned down as it would just cause a shockwave back up the M50 at Bray. Probably correct decistion until Bray BP widened to 3 lanes

_Kaiser_

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You'll also appreciate the M20 in there.

This doesn't even have a route selected at present.
They don't know yet exactly what they're building or where they're building it but they'll be breaking ground on this billion euro project for sure in 2023 lol.

"give us a vote!"

That's all it is. Local elections imminent and a general election potentially this year as well.

It's spin and vote-grabbing.

Aontachtoir

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's all it is. Local elections imminent and a general election potentially this year as well.

It's spin and vote-grabbing.

There’s always spin around infrastructure, but I don’t think it’s fair or even correct to call the inclusion of the M20 spin when the government has just signed the contracts to bring it all the way to ABP.

marno21

veryangryman wrote: »

Where is the N4 Longford to Mullingar? I thought this was being pushed

N4 Mullingar-Longford is in the running with 23 other projects to possibly proceed to construction when it gets planning, likely in 2022 depending on how tight the Ministers of the time are.

Varadkar said on the radio during the week that he favours tax cuts over infrastructural spending so it isn't surprising that these things are taking so long.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

There’s always spin around infrastructure, but I don’t think it’s fair or even correct to call the inclusion of the M20 spin when the government has just signed the contracts to bring it all the way to ABP.

The issue here is that there was a time when this stuff was done with many schemes without the need for ceremonial PR stunts. The total cost of that contract is ~€10m and there has to be this level of celebrating it. Also, it's weird that they are celebrating the M20 going into route selection when this is its third time being done and most people who care about the M20 as a political issue are aware we've been here before and planning an M20 is not hard, but building it seems to be.

steeler j

marno21 wrote: »

The issue here is that there was a time when this stuff was done with many schemes without the need for ceremonial PR stunts. The total cost of that contract is ~€10m and there has to be this level of celebrating it. Also, it's weird that they are celebrating the M20 going into route selection when this is its third time being done and most people who care about the M20 as a political issue are aware we've been here before and planning an M20 is not hard, but building it seems to be.

Unfortunately yes,when the diggers start digging that's when I will be happy and start to believe it's being done

nuac

All politicians like to announce good news, but FG appear to be over-doing the good news stories

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

The issue here is that there was a time when this stuff was done with many schemes without the need for ceremonial PR stunts. The total cost of that contract is ~€10m and there has to be this level of celebrating it. Also, it's weird that they are celebrating the M20 going into route selection when this is its third time being done and most people who care about the M20 as a political issue are aware we've been here before and planning an M20 is not hard, but building it seems to be.

If people keep complaining that roads aren't being built, doesn't it make perfect sense to advertise every step taken towards construction of new roads? Especially getting the ball well and truly rolling on one of the biggest infrastructure investments the state has ever seen outside Dublin? I think it would be weird not to highlight progress made.

I don't care if the planning contract cost €10m or €100m. I'm celebrating because the investment has been made, and after over a decade of waiting, the M20 is finally coming back. The brakes are off, the train has left the station, and it will chug all the way to ABP before we have to do anything else. As for your comment about it not being hard to plan a one-billion-euro, 90-km motorway through the kind of terrain that north Cork has, I will have to trust you on that one.

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

If people keep complaining that roads aren't being built, doesn't it make perfect sense to advertise every step taken towards construction of new roads? Especially getting the ball well and truly rolling on one of the biggest infrastructure investments the state has ever seen outside Dublin? I think it would be weird not to highlight progress made.

I don't care if the planning contract cost €10m or €100m. I'm celebrating because the investment has been made, and after over a decade of waiting, the M20 is finally coming back. The brakes are off, the train has left the station, and it will chug all the way to ABP before we have to do anything else. As for your comment about it not being hard to plan a one-billion-euro, 90-km motorway through the kind of terrain that north Cork has, I will have to trust you on that one.

The issue to me is that people are getting rightly fed up of the announcements and all that and want to see delivery. The N72 Mallow relief road was announced in 2015 in place of the M20, now its 2019, no route selected and they plan to start construction in 2025? That's ridiculous. The issue has been exacerbated in Cork with the events centre mess.

As for planning the M20 being easy, it can't be that hard given this is it's 3rd time being designed. This is another issue, many projects being announced in Cork are like reheated dinners, they've been announced before and repeated announcements of the same projects are just having groundhog day effects. Same with CMATS unless it's actually implemented, there won't be anything radical in there that hasn't been announced or investigated before.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

The issue to me is that people are getting rightly fed up of the announcements and all that and want to see delivery. The N72 Mallow relief road was announced in 2015 in place of the M20, now its 2019, no route selected and they plan to start construction in 2025? That's ridiculous. The issue has been exacerbated in Cork with the events centre mess.

As for planning the M20 being easy, it can't be that hard given this is it's 3rd time being designed. This is another issue, many projects being announced in Cork are like reheated dinners, they've been announced before and repeated announcements of the same projects are just having groundhog day effects. Same with CMATS unless it's actually implemented, there won't be anything radical in there that hasn't been announced or investigated before.

That's pretty much the size of it. Plus all the critical Cork infrastructure announcements at election time just serve to bring the deficits to people's attention. So people are quite aware that this scheme was stopped. Plus, did they list 2023 last week as the start date? That'd be very unrealistic. And potentially a very convenient date: just going into another election cycle.

I fear we'll have the same with CMATS: a big document with all of the necessary schemes detailed in it, announced to great fanfare, then sitting on a shelf until the next election cycle. I'd suggest one way to beat that is to pick some of the cheapest schemes in CMATS and implement them almost immediately, then linking those completions to CMATS itself.

Anyway, back on the M20, I really hope the NRR goes through with this because travelling through the Northside to get to the N20 is a bit of a pig of a journey for me.

marno21

DPER documentation suggests that in order to cover increased costs of the National Broadband Plan, the following could be subject to cancellation:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/donohoe-defends-decision-to-overrule-concerns-over-3bn-national-broadband-plan-cost-922748.html

N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange upgrade
N59 Moycullen bypass
Sligo Western Distributor Road (now under construction)
Killaloe bypass

Now this is a mess.

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

DPER documentation suggests that in order to cover increased costs of the National Broadband Plan, the following could be subject to cancellation:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/donohoe-defends-decision-to-overrule-concerns-over-3bn-national-broadband-plan-cost-922748.html

N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange upgrade
N59 Moycullen bypass
Sligo Western Distributor Road (now under construction)
Killaloe bypass

Now this is a mess.

They don't know whether they're coming or going. Promising everything and getting nothing or half ar$ed projects :mad:

marno21

jvan wrote: »

They don't know whether they're coming or going. Promising everything and getting nothing or half ar$ed projects :mad:

It turns out the funding in the NDP for the broadband plan, which was "commercially sensitive" in the published version, was €770m. This is now "upto €2.97bn".

What an absolute cluster****.

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

It turns out the funding in the NDP for the broadband plan, which was "commercially sensitive" in the published version, was €770m. This is now "upto €2.97bn".

What an absolute cluster****.

Madness, I worry for where the economy will be in 12-18 mths time.

marno21

jvan wrote: »

Madness, I worry for where the economy will be in 12-18 mths time.

Prime for yet more cuts in badly needed capital investment.

Aontachtoir

Draft Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Study (CMATS) due next Tuesday according to the Echo.

Disappointing first look. It is expected to focus overwhelmingly on improving bus service. No light rail. No new road projects reported in the article beyond the M28 and Dunkettle (plus/minus some tweaking of the existing N40). Northern Ring Road only a "long-term goal".

Still looking forward to taking a look at it but a shame that there is so little ambition for what is supposed to be Ireland's fastest-growing city up to 2040 (and curious how they propose dealing with the Jack Lynch Tunnel as a future chokepoint without completing the Ring Road).

Pete_Cavan

Major road projects like the M20 and NRR are at the discretion of central government, including them in CMATS will not make them more likely to be built. This plan should focus on projects which are achievable, particularly by local authorities with the likes of CIE, not a list of every project ever dreamt up. What would be the point of another report making promises it can deliver?

_Kaiser_

marno21 wrote: »

It turns out the funding in the NDP for the broadband plan, which was "commercially sensitive" in the published version, was €770m. This is now "upto €2.97bn".

What an absolute cluster****.

People to be conned, votes to be bought, don't ya know?

Besides, this will never ACTUALLY happen. If/when they get re-elected these contracts will be severely cut back.

This nonsense of "commercially sensitive" being rolled out to hide the true costs is another thing FG are at since 2011. It's OUR bloody taxes that are (one way or another) paying for these stunts.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/shane-ross-warned-people-will-die-as-road-improvement-schemes-could-take-years-824614.html

This man should be ashamed of himself.

150 safety schemes were planned for completion between 2013 and 2020. These are primarily realignments of 1-4km costing around 7-10m each, a good number of them are on national secondary routes. 6 of these are to start in 2018, and 3 other realignments of national secondaries part of larger plans on the N56/N59. Four are to start in each of 2019 and 2020.

42 are done now and a number are under construction which means we should have around 65-70 done by 2020. That's less than half of the 150 proposed.

This is Shane Ross's response:



But no, he will cut road deaths down to 0 by persecuting people after 1 pint or breaking completely arbitrary speed limits whilst over 70 stretches of deplorable **** road remain in place.

Well done Shane.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/low-hanging-fruit-in-road-safety-has-been-taken-conference-hears-1.3924480

Who would have known that having a road network comprised mainly of unengineered roads designed for horses and carts are quite dangerous when they are carrying vast amount of traffic including HGVs

But it's ok. Catching people doing 115km/h on 100km/h dual carriageways and regular speed checks on empty motorways will certainly address this issue comprehensively.

marno21

In other news, a brilliant response to people who voted for the Charlatan Green Party who are interested in scrapping road scheme funding so they can talk about funding public transport projects that their leader can object to

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/dail-votes-to-overhaul-national-development-plan-to-address-climate-change-and-overspending-930652.html

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

Well done Shane.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/low-hanging-fruit-in-road-safety-has-been-taken-conference-hears-1.3924480

Who would have known that having a road network comprised mainly of unengineered roads designed for horses and carts are quite dangerous when they are carrying vast amount of traffic including HGVs

But it's ok. Catching people doing 115km/h on 100km/h dual carriageways and regular speed checks on empty motorways will certainly address this issue comprehensively.

Have the RSA ever broken the data down into distance traveled? I've never heard them acknowledge the fact that deaths could also be related to volume of traffic on the roads. Its no coincidence that during the recession that road deaths fell as there were less journeys, therefore there is also a possibility that deaths will rise as the roads get busier.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

In other news, a brilliant response to people who voted for the Charlatan Green Party who are interested in scrapping road scheme funding so they can talk about funding public transport projects that their leader can object to

It’s frustrating how polarised views on transport are.

On the one hand many people want road construction only and spend half the day complaining about “dangerous cyclists” and how “I’ll never use Metrolink so I don’t want my taxes spent on it.”

On the hand environmentalists want all road schemes scrapped and the money spent on bike lanes and trams as if that had anything to do with Ballyvourney needing a bypass in order to prevent people being killed there.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

It’s frustrating how polarised views on transport are.

On the one hand many people want road construction only and spend half the day complaining about “dangerous cyclists” and how “I’ll never use Metrolink so I don’t want my taxes spent on it.”

On the hand environmentalists want all road schemes scrapped and the money spent on bike lanes and trams as if that had anything to do with Ballyvourney needing a bypass in order to prevent people being killed there.

Eamon Ryan doesn't seem to realise that one of the core pillars of the NPF/NDP is regional connectivity, which requires upgrading roads to a decent standard both for safety and utility. He makes two assumptions:

1. These roads are being upgraded for the sole purpose of massive increases in traffic
2. These roads only benefit private motorists, no mention of freight or buses.

Scrapping something like the Eastern Bypass in favour of PT spending would be highly meritorious. Scrapping the proposed road upgrades in the NDP in favour of vague commitments towards improved PT is foolish.

It won't happen anyway. Cancelling road schemes outside the cities to fund projects such as Metrolink would be filed under high crimes and misdemeanours by voters

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan doesn't seem to realise that one of the core pillars of the NPF/NDP is regional connectivity, which requires upgrading roads to a decent standard both for safety and utility. He makes two assumptions:

1. These roads are being upgraded for the sole purpose of massive increases in traffic
2. These roads only benefit private motorists, no mention of freight or buses.

Scrapping something like the Eastern Bypass in favour of PT spending would be highly meritorious. Scrapping the proposed road upgrades in the NDP in favour of vague commitments towards improved PT is foolish.

It won't happen anyway. Cancelling road schemes outside the cities to fund projects such as Metrolink would be filed under high crimes and misdemeanours by voters

All of the above is true, but bearing in mind that we're massively underachieving in terms of modal shift, I can see why some people are shouting "please stop building roads". I'd suggest our spend on roads may possibly dwarf all other transport infrastructure spending?

spacetweek

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

All of the above is true, but bearing in mind that we're massively underachieving in terms of modal shift, I can see why some people are shouting "please stop building roads". I'd suggest our spend on roads may possibly dwarf all other transport infrastructure spending?

They might, but this small country means there are a limited number of big-ticket multi billion PT schemes. If it’s a year where you aren’t building those, PT spending looks very small, but if it is, PT spending is huge. Roads spending tends to be more even.

Charles Babbage

spacetweek wrote: »

It’s frustrating how polarised views on transport are.

On the one hand many people want road construction only and spend half the day complaining about “dangerous cyclists” and how “I’ll never use Metrolink so I don’t want my taxes spent on it.”

On the hand environmentalists want all road schemes scrapped and the money spent on bike lanes and trams as if that had anything to do with Ballyvourney needing a bypass in order to prevent people being killed there.

The classic example of this is park and ride. This does not suit the green crowd as you drive part of the way, and so almost nothing is done about such schemes, although parking at motoway junction and bus stops suggests there is a demand for this.

Employers should be incentivised to have their employers use park and ride. So that an employers in Sandyford could pay for a bus from a park and ride in Clonee if some employees lived in Meath. This kind of thing could materially reduce traffic in the more congested locations.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

All of the above is true, but bearing in mind that we're massively underachieving in terms of modal shift, I can see why some people are shouting "please stop building roads". I'd suggest our spend on roads may possibly dwarf all other transport infrastructure spending?

The Green Party are calling for this, yet the Green Party have caused delays to the 2 biggest proposed public transport infrastructure projects planned in Ireland with feckless objections, baseless NIMBYism and trying to balloon the projects to the point they get derailed.

Cutting the roads budget will do nothing for PT investment. At present, there is nowhere to put extra money into PT investment because there are no projects to invest in.

It would be useful for them to push to get planning done on DART Underground, the Cork LRT system, and any other projects which could use additional funding in the late 2020s. Taking money from the roads budget now, which is in fact boosting public transport as many of the roads projects are upgrades to corridors served exclusively by bus, benefits no one.