2018-2027 National Development Plan

hans aus dtschl

spacetweek wrote: »

They might, but this small country means there are a limited number of big-ticket multi billion PT schemes. If it’s a year where you aren’t building those, PT spending looks very small, but if it is, PT spending is huge. Roads spending tends to be more even.

Agreed, but sustainable transport spending doesn't just mean trains. You can get fairly stable spending by attempting to deliver across walking/cycling/bus/train. Replenishing bus fleets, increasing frequencies, putting in more dedicated lanes, the whole lot.

I'm not sure but I suspect their next big gamble to solve the over-dependence on cars will be to fling money at people to buy...electric cars.

At some point, when traffic is at a standstill, and you've tried the same thing about fifty different ways and it still hasn't worked, you start to question it in its entirety.

Again, I'm not saying new roads aren't needed. But I can see why some people are having that incorrect knee-jerk response.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

The Green Party are calling for this, yet the Green Party have caused delays to the 2 biggest proposed public transport infrastructure projects planned in Ireland with feckless objections, baseless NIMBYism and trying to balloon the projects to the point they get derailed.

Cutting the roads budget will do nothing for PT investment. At present, there is nowhere to put extra money into PT investment because there are no projects to invest in.

It would be useful for them to push to get planning done on DART Underground, the Cork LRT system, and any other projects which could use additional funding in the late 2020s. Taking money from the roads budget now, which is in fact boosting public transport as many of the roads projects are upgrades to corridors served exclusively by bus, benefits no one.

Hey, I'm with you on all of the above 100%. I'm just trying to provide context for the "no more roads" agenda some people have.
In Cork, the greens are against the M28 and the Midleton-Youghal greenway, and I believe that's a mistake too.

To borrow a phrase, I believe they "let the perfect bully the good". For me, I'd expect the green policy should be "any metro is better than no metro".
No project is ever perfect, and I think moving incrementally forward in a well-signposted way is easier than "big-bang" dream projects that can't and won't happen.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Hey, I'm with you on all of the above 100%. I'm just trying to provide context for the "no more roads" agenda some people have.
In Cork, the greens are against the M28 and the Midleton-Youghal greenway, and I believe that's a mistake too.

To borrow a phrase, I believe they "let the perfect bully the good". For me, I'd expect the green policy should be "any metro is better than no metro".
No project is ever perfect, and I think moving incrementally forward in a well-signposted way is easier than "big-bang" dream projects that can't and won't happen.

I know we're on the same page, it's nice to repeat what I said though for people unaware.

In fairness, Liam Quaide at least is in favour of the railway between Midleton and Youghal, and given that Cork-Midleton will be an electrified commuter railway with 10 minute frequency, I can see there being merit on that.

Indeed on the last point. This notion of everything being perfect and serving the whole of Dublin with one project needs to be binned or nothing will get built.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

In fairness, Liam Quaide at least is in favour of the railway between Midleton and Youghal, and given that Cork-Midleton will be an electrified commuter railway with 10 minute frequency, I can see there being merit on that.

That's their policy, but it's a fallacy and I've pointed this out to them in the past too. IÉ have little interest in it because:
They got badly burned by the numbers on the original Midleton extension
There are 4 or 5 critical Cork rail projects ahead of Youghal
There are already two properties after encroaching on the alignment.
Any business manager that went for a difficult hail-mary project above easier more guaranteed projects would be considered reckless and should likely lose their job.

On top of that, and despite everything the greens say, transport policy should be that pedestrian comes before cycling comes before public transport. So their very open public opposition to the greenway is extremely misguided.

Finally, the greenway doesn't prevent a railway because railway ownership is guaranteed, and because if it did prevent a railway, then it would do the same on the Mahon/Blackrock tram route. Further, the area cycle network plan (eurovelo route) is to run parallel to the rail alignment, so they should be campaigning for that necessary CPO to protect the long-term rail alignment and remove the two encroachments from the line. And we hear absolutely nothing from them on the Dunkettle interchange section, which is a deviation from the plan entirely. But who cares about that because at least there's a railway, right?

So, to recap, their campaign here may again result in neither cycle nor rail benefit: only car.
Again, the perfect dream favoured over the practical improvement.

Edit: besides all of that, the idea of Youghal being designated as a Cork City commuter town probably isn't correct either, but that's an entirely different discussion.

Shedite27

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

They got badly burned by the numbers on the original Midleton extension

There are already two properties after encroaching on the alignment.

What was the difference between expected and actual travellers on the Midleton route?

What properties are encroaching on the alignment?

hans aus dtschl

Shedite27 wrote: »

What was the difference between expected and actual travellers on the Midleton route?

What properties are encroaching on the alignment?

I don't remember the exact numbers I'm afraid, I just remember the weeping and gnashing of teeth at the time: they had provided finance with passenger estimates to support the capex and took a lot of flack for not succeeding in the first 2-3 years. In fairness they had been told by developers in Carrigtwohill and Midleton that developments would be finished, and some of these still aren't complete even now. Nowadays the passenger numbers are good, thankfully.

On the encroachment, there's a property with outbuildings in Ballyquirke. I presume it was reoriented so that its front door is facing the alignment. Its outbuildings and yard are on the alignment itself. A driveway (luckily not a dwelling) just west of Youghal has established right of way over the line also. Easy to deal with now, but it will take money in both cases. The greenway proposal sees no CPO whatsoever to resolve these two issues, its traffic instead rerouting and ceding right of way. Naturally a railway doesn't have these options.

L1011

Irish Rail have done work on the alignment recently enough that adverse possession is not established. State owned land requires complete and total abandonment for 30 years. The weedspray trains and removal of track panels in the early 90s will have kicked the date to the start of the next decade even if nothing has been done since.

hans aus dtschl

L1011 wrote: »

Irish Rail have done work on the alignment recently enough that adverse possession is not established. State owned land requires complete and total abandonment for 30 years. The weedspray trains and removal of track panels in the early 90s will have kicked the date to the start of the next decade even if nothing has been done since.

I'd love if you were right. But the greenway plans to go around the dwelling and outbuildings, and cedes right of way at the driveway. And some people brought this up in their greenway submissions. So I'd say the possession issue is sadly still very much in play.

I'm not saying these things can't be dealt with, I'm just saying it's not entirely accurate to conflate the provision of a greenway on the line now with lack of railway in the future. Many things are against a railway on that line, as it stands. A greenway is a cheap investment and minor project in comparison to a railway.

It's possible to have both in the long term.
Rail enthusiasts protesting the greenway in favour of an unlikely railway is logical. But it's questionable/illogical for a green party. But it ties in perfectly with what other people in this thread are complaining about in a Dublin context.

loyatemu

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Edit: besides all of that, the idea of Youghal being designated as a Cork City commuter town probably isn't correct either, but that's an entirely different discussion.

this is the main reason not to reopen the line. If there was a train service to Youghal the council would see that as a greenlight to massively expand the town; most of the new residents would be commuters and most of them would drive to work. There's loads of potential development land in and around Cork without turning Youghal into a distant dormitory town.

marno21

loyatemu wrote: »

this is the main reason not to reopen the line. If there was a train service to Youghal the council would see that as a greenlight to massively expand the town; most of the new residents would be commuters and most of them would drive to work. There's loads of potential development land in and around Cork without turning Youghal into a distant dormitory town.

To me it seems they’re going to do that anyway and if not Youghal it’ll be somewhere else. And unless it’s Mallow or Middleton, the area targeted for expansion will be reliant on road based transport

hans aus dtschl

loyatemu wrote: »

this is the main reason not to reopen the line. If there was a train service to Youghal the council would see that as a greenlight to massively expand the town; most of the new residents would be commuters and most of them would drive to work. There's loads of potential development land in and around Cork without turning Youghal into a distant dormitory town.

Yep exactly.
Look many of us are in agreement that opening the railway to Youghal is a medium-term to long-term project at best. The greens are opposing a greenway on the alignment in favour of a railway that's not happening any time soon.

This ties in perfectly with their pro-metrolink anti-metrolink stance. I could be wrong, but it feels to me like they're generally anti-infrastructure and the anti-roads stance is purely along for the ride.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

To me it seems they’re going to do that anyway and if not Youghal it’ll be somewhere else. And unless it’s Mallow or Middleton, the area targeted for expansion will be reliant on road based transport

Monard, Mogeely?

Look this is a big tangent for us (mea culpa!) and maybe we should have a Youghal or Cork commuter areas thread.

marno21

Bit rich for this fella to be willy waving given he's been Minister for State in DTTAS/DPER for the last 3 years and presided over these two projects advancing as some of the slowest projects I've seen in modern years.

It's taken 5 years for the M21 to get from Phase 1 to Phase 4 and it's taken 2.5 years for the M20 to advance from Phase 0 to Phase 1

https://twitter.com/podonovan/status/1140871368717799424

Meanwhile, for all their faults, Timmy Dooley's party delivered ~140km of M7, the entire Limerick bypass, the M20 Patrickswell-Limerick, and the M18 from Bunratty to Gort in their last period in Government.

Reuben1210

marno21 wrote: »

Bit rich for this fella to be willy waving given he's been Minister for State in DTTAS/DPER for the last 3 years and presided over these two projects advancing as some of the slowest projects I've seen in modern years.

It's taken 5 years for the M21 to get from Phase 1 to Phase 4 and it's taken 2.5 years for the M20 to advance from Phase 0 to Phase 1

https://twitter.com/podonovan/status/1140871368717799424

Meanwhile, for all their faults, Timmy Dooley's party delivered ~140km of M7, the entire Limerick bypass, the M20 Patrickswell-Limerick, and the M18 from Bunratty to Gort in their last period in Government.

True, but the delivery only started to happen 11 consecutive years into their leadership, and several years deep into an economic boom!

marno21

TII have been allocated funding of €6.6bn in the NDP for spending on national roads. This is quite a lot of money and as such the National Roads programme should be a matter of priority for shadowing by the Transport Committee.

Since the NDP was announced TII have appeared in front of the NDP zero times. Last week the subject of discussion for the Committee was the €30m N52 Ardee bypass. Today it was the R132 Julianstown bypass, a local issue which is only a concept at this stage.

Of course, the Chairperson being from Louth has absolutely nothing to do with this. It's absolutely scandalous that TII have yet to appear in front of the Committee to outline the current status of many national road projects, given the lack of information available on them in the public demain. Ridiculous that local issues are taking precedence over this.

marno21

An insight from Cork on why nothing is getting built and everything takes so long

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/County-Engineer-Cork-to-Kerry-N22-most-dangerous-road-in-the-country-c07ad069-7619-48f1-a4ce-df0ed66697c7-ds

Speaking about the €280m Macroom Bypass that was recently approved for funding, Mr Barrett said getting the project off the ground was a bit like getting pigs to fly and heaped praise on Senior County Engineer Bob O Shea for getting the project ready.

“There are so many gateways, there are so many appraisals and so much signing off on a project of that scale and to do it at a time that funding is available, to have it ready when funding is available it is a bit like trying to dock a punt in a hurricane.

Endless bureaucracy and lack of resources to deal with it is a major constraint.

Having an inept Minister who couldn’t care less isn’t helping either

spacetweek

I'm amazed how dear these projects are too. The big four that were meant to start this year (Dunkettle/N5/N4/N22) are all in the 200-250M range, for a total of a billion.
I suppose it's hard to do these things right unless you're prepared to pony up. The N22 is costing around 10.8 million euro/km but DCs are expected to be built to a high standard these days.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

I'm amazed how dear these projects are too. The big four that were meant to start this year (Dunkettle/N5/N4/N22) are all in the 200-250M range, for a total of a billion.
I suppose it's hard to do these things right unless you're prepared to pony up. The N22 is costing around 10.8 million euro/km but DCs are expected to be built to a high standard these days.

I’m waiting to see the actual tender awards before judging.

The N4 in Sligo is coming in at around €5m per km. I’d be amazed if the N5 and N22 are that high.

I’d imagine the price tags published for the N22 and N5 schemes include all the sunk costs including land and soft costs. This may help with the willy waving but in the long run I don’t see the benefit of it

marno21

2020 allocations by TII

National Development Plan: Construction
Scheme|Allocation (€)
N2 Slane bypass|1,000,000
N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin|40,000,000
N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge|10,000,000
N5 Westport to Turlough|40,000,000
M6 Galway City Ring Road|2,000,000
M7 Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade|2,200,000
N11 Kilmacanogue Parallel Service Road|1,500,000
M20 Cork to Limerick|3,000,000
M21 Foynes to Limerick|2,000,000
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom|40,000,000
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy|4,000,000
N40 Dunkettle Interchange|1,500,000
N52 Ardee Bypass|1,750,000
N56 Dungloe to Glenties|21,500,000
N56 Mountcharles to Inver|8,350,000
N59 Clifden to Oughterard|11,000,000
N59 Moycullen Bypass|1,000,000
N59 Westport to Mulranny|2,100,000
N69 Listowel bypass|6,000,000
N72 Mallow Relief Road|430,000
N86 Tralee to An Daingean|3,400,000


National Development Plan 2018-2022 Design and Planning
Scheme|Allocation (€)
N2 Ardee to Castleblayney South|1,000,000
N2 Ashbourne to Kilmoon Cross|356,000
N2 Clontibret to Northern Ireland|1,000,000
N3 M50 to Clonee|750,000
M4 Maynooth to Leixlip|1,000,000
N4 Mullingar to Longford|1,000,000
N3 Virginia Bypass |600,000
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod|200,000
N11/M11 J4 to J14 upgrade|1,500,000
N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour|1,000,000
N13 Letterkenny Area upgrade |2,000,000
N14 Letterkenny to Lifford |2,000,000
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar Bypass | 2,000,000
N17 Knock to Collooney|1,500,000
N21 Abbeyfeale Relief Road|500,000
N21 Newcastlewest Relief Road|500,000
N22 Farranfore to Killarney|500,000
N24 Cahir to Limerick Junction|500,000
N24 Cahir to Waterford|750,000
N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton|500,000
N25 Waterford to Glenmore|750,000
M50 South Port Access Route|400,000
N52 Tullamore to Kilbeggan|500,000


Non-NDP schemes

Scheme|Allocation (€)
M7 J28 Upgrade|150,000
N19 Shannon Airport Access Route |250,000
N25 Castlemartyr Bypass|100,000
N25 Rosslare Europort Access Route|320,000
N26 Ballina Bypass Phase 1|50,000
N40 Cork North Ring Road|250,000
N40 Intelligent Transport System|1,640,000
N40 TEN-T Route Study|200,000
N55 Athlone to Ballymahon|150,000
N70 Milltown Bypass|200,000
N71 Bandon Relief Road Extension|100,000
N67 Ennistimon Inner Relief Road |350,000
N84 Galway to Curraghmore|50,000

tonc76

marno21 wrote: »

2020 allocations by TII

National Development Plan: Construction
Scheme|Allocation (€)

M6 Galway City Ring Road|2,000,000

M20 Cork to Limerick|3,000,000

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy|4,000,000

Surprised to see these three under the construction allocation as M6 is yet to go to oral hearing, M20 is in the early stages of planning and M28 is currently under judicial review? Any ideas why?

marno21

tonc76 wrote: »

Surprised to see these three under the construction allocation as M6 is yet to go to oral hearing, M20 is in the early stages of planning and M28 is currently under judicial review? Any ideas why?

Sorry I should have explained that in the previous post

Funding is provided for them in the NDP to go to construction, whereas construction funding is not guaranteed for the second bunch

tonc76

marno21 wrote: »

Sorry I should have explained that in the previous post

Funding is provided for them in the NDP to go to construction, whereas construction funding is not guaranteed for the second bunch

So the allocations for those is effectively setting money aside for the constriction phase (whenever that occurs)?

Limerick74

tonc76 wrote: »

So the allocations for those is effectively setting money aside for the constriction phase (whenever that occurs)?

No they are just grouped as they are presented in the NDP. Some of the schemes are at construction phase in 2020 like N22 which has a €40m allocation. Others like M20 are at planning & development stage. These allocations are to be spent in 2020, not held in reserve. It is a bit confusing to be fair.

spacetweek

List can't be right - Dunkettle is listed as only 1.5M allocated for next year but it is intended to be under full construction from Q1?

Chris_5339762

Nah.... retendering only happened Aug/Sept time so I'm guessing it'll be next summer at the very least before full construction.

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Nah.... retendering only happened Aug/Sept time so I'm guessing it'll be next summer at the very least before full construction.

OK, but still only 1.5million for 2020 for the scheme?

marno21

Some timelines from today's updated Project Ireland 2040 documents:

Scheme|Est start date|Est completion date
N2 Slane bypass|2024|2026
N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge|2021|2024
N5 Westport to Turlough|2019|2022
M6 Galway City Ring Road|2022|2025
M20 Cork to Limerick|2025|tbc
M21 Limerick to Adare to Foynes|2022|2025
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom|2019|2023
M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy|2024|2027
N40 Dunkettle Interchange|2020|2023
N52 Ardee bypass|2021|2023
N59 Moycullen bypass|2021|2023
N69 Listowel bypass|2020|2022
N72/N73 Mallow Relief Road|2025|2027
N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road|2020|2023
Coonagh-Knockalisheen|2020|2023


N56 Dungloe-Glenties to be wrapped up in 2022 after final 2 phases complete.

marno21

Or in chronological order:

2020:
N5 Westport-Turlough
N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange
N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney
N56 Dungloe-Glenties (final 15km)
N69 Listowel bypass
N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road

2021:
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge
N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Moycullen bypass

2022:
M6 Galway City Ring Road
M21 Limerick-Adare-Foynes

2024:
N2 Slane bypass
M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy

2025:
M20 Cork-Limerick
N72 Mallow Relief Road

Schemes expected to become shovel ready before 2025 with no defined start dates

N2 Ardee-South of Castleblayney
N2 Clontibret-NI border
M11/N11 J4-J14 improvement scheme
N13/N56 Letterkenny area improvement and relief road
N13/N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford
N25 Waterford-Glenmore

marno21

The potential of an election coming up soon may see a radical overhaul of this thread. Especially considering where Eamon Ryan and his basket of anti-transport investment warriors end up.

However, the likely scenario of Shane Ross no longer holding the Minister for Transport title is what's most exciting about 2020. I don't think it will be possible to find someone less interested in the brief. We didn't expect 4 years of him when he was appointed in 2016.

I see him boasting about increased transport in the Times today. Laughable stuff. Good riddance

Tomrota

marno21 wrote: »

The potential of an election coming up soon may see a radical overhaul of this thread. Especially considering where Eamon Ryan and his basket of anti-transport investment warriors end up.

However, the likely scenario of Shane Ross no longer holding the Minister for Transport title is what's most exciting about 2020. I don't think it will be possible to find someone less interested in the brief. We didn't expect 4 years of him when he was appointed in 2016.

I see him boasting about increased transport in the Times today. Laughable stuff. Good riddance

It’s amazing. I see countless major (and minor) European cities planning extra metro lines, tram lines, extensions, etc. etc. so that there isn’t a year that goes by that there isn’t some sort of major investment in public transport. I see large European TOWNS with tram systems. It’s amazing how backward this city is. Not that other government did a great job with transport, but I think this has to be the worst ever. I mean, it’s just laughable at this stage. I would give anything to be able to complete my journeys as I do in other European cities, hopping on a DART line or a Luas line or a metro line and having a reliable journey with integrated affordable ticket pricing. I doubt we’ll ever see Dublin in the same shape as comparable European capitals. We’ll get a much better minister for transport and we’ll have another recession. Just watch.