2018-2027 National Development Plan

prunudo

The transport portfolio is too big to have sport bundled in with it. Ross has concentrated too much on the sport and road safety end of it rather than trying to deliver meaningful big value infrastructure projects.

Maybe we need a create a new position of Minister for infrastructure.

riddlinrussell

prunudo wrote: »

The transport portfolio is too big to have sport bundled in with it. Ross has concentrated too much on the sport and road safety end of it rather than trying to deliver meaningful big value infrastructure projects.

Maybe we need a create a new position of Minister for infrastructure.

Coming from NI I was totally shocked when I came down and saw one of the most important briefs in the cabinet was rolled in with Sport and Tourism. The ability for an interested party to dramatically change and improve the lives of the people of a country by being Minister of Infrastructure is gigantic.

Rulmeq

prunudo wrote: »

The transport portfolio is too big to have sport bundled in with it. Ross has concentrated too much on the sport and road safety end of it rather than trying to deliver meaningful big value infrastructure projects.

Maybe we need a create a new position of Minister for infrastructure.

The constitution limits the number of minsters, so you would have to eliminate another poistion first, that's why they combined these.

riddlinrussell

Rulmeq wrote: »

The constitution limits the number of minsters, so you would have to eliminate another poistion first, that's why they combined these.

Minister for Culture, Gaeltacht, Heritage, Tourism and Sport? I feel like at a minimum Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport are all fairly linked.

Solo minister for Infrastructure would at least mean if you ended up with a pure photo op hound like Shane Ross they would actually have to get stuff built so they could get a photo at the opening instead of just going round gatecrashing sports stars limelight

Reuben1210

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Minister for Culture, Gaeltacht, Heritage, Tourism and Sport? I feel like at a minimum Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport are all fairly linked.

Solo minister for Infrastructure would at least mean if you ended up with a pure photo op hound like Shane Ross they would actually have to get stuff built so they could get a photo at the opening instead of just going round gatecrashing sports stars limelight

That's all spot on!

marno21

I have never seen this forum anywhere remotely near as quiet as it has been the past few weeks. While construction work has stopped, there has been very little of note to report with any of the non-construction road schemes since the year began.

It's odd because the NTA are ploughing ahead with the PT projects but there seems to be very little happening with the roads projects.

Of course, the depressing thought of the anti-transport Green Party with their ridiculous 20% funding for walking and cycling being in Government is becoming more real by the day.

riddlinrussell

marno21 wrote: »

I have never seen this forum anywhere remotely near as quiet as it has been the past few weeks. While construction work has stopped, there has been very little of note to report with any of the non-construction road schemes since the year began.

It's odd because the NTA are ploughing ahead with the PT projects but there seems to be very little happening with the roads projects.

Of course, the depressing thought of the anti-transport Green Party with their ridiculous 20% funding for walking and cycling being in Government is becoming more real by the day.

I would say that the green party policy is quite distant from 'Anti-Transport' given that they are seeking 20% for Cyclists and Walkers (Do these not count as forms of transport?) and the re-balancing of the remaining transport budget to 2/3 public transport and 1/3 roads.

Based purely on policy it would appear the greens are very pro the majority of transport, in particular all forms of transport 'prioritised' in every design manual for public spaces that has come out in the last 10 years at least.

I will agree that there may, based on past records, be a risk of some green TDs/Cllrs letting the 'perfect be the enemy of the good' and risking some projects, but thats a person to person issue, not policy.

The current crisis is looking like it will have a far greater impact on the 2018-2027 NDP for roads than the Greens could ever dream of whether they get into government or remain in opposition. When the dust settles from this if there isn't a solid reassessment of AADT on every one of the project routes then the government would be failing to account for the possibility of massively changed habits for a large percentage of the population.

marno21

The Greens can put down whatever they want in their policy documents but their record over the past few years is appalling. The stonewalling against MetroLink and BusConnects is not helping get these projects implemented and I don't see how this would change if they got into Government. Derailing large public transport projects because some of their constituents will have to drive further to get to their local shop is a big issue.

20% of funding for walking and cycling is nuts. These projects have a much lower cost per km and that level of funding is very disproportionate.

If there was 20% of the transport budget spent on walking and cycling every year it would be ~€300m. Walking and cycling projects don't need that level of funding, they need focus and implementation but massive funding isn't an issue. Every touted greenway project in the country could be implemented in the next 12-18 months at that level of funding.

The issue with the Green Party is they are unable to distinguish between "anti-road" and "anti-car". There is €190m being spent on a new road between Ballyvourney and Macroom which they have an issue with. However, buses will be using that route, and also freight which they don't seem to acknowledge the existence of. It also frees up Ballyvourney and Macroom to become more friendly for active transport such as walking and cycling

Their approach to transport planning is extremist and one dimensional. I'm fully in favour of decarbonisation, improved public transport and massive expansion of PT, and active transport measures, but I am very against their approach which seems far too ideological.

spacetweek

riddlinrussell wrote: »

When the dust settles from this if there isn't a solid reassessment of AADT on every one of the project routes then the government would be failing to account for the possibility of massively changed habits for a large percentage of the population.

That's true, but there'll be two forces pushing in opposite directions on the need for road building:

The fact that transport demand will be greatly reduced for a long time since office workers will be the last to go back to work as they can work from home quite easily and a lot of commuter traffic is office workers;

and a bias in favour of the car for the commuters that do travel each day since they won't be at risk of covid there.

It'll remain to be seen how this pans out. Of course there's also the argument that now is the best time to be building the likes of Dunkettle etc. since traffic flows will be so low in the short/medium term making traffic management during construction much easier.

roadmaster

One solution in the next cabinet would be to have Michael Ring as Minister for Roads and outside Dublin and Eamon Ryan as Minister for Dublin and growing lettuce. At least with ringer things would get build but the only problem is it could all be in mayo

MayoSalmon

marno21 wrote: »

I have never seen this forum anywhere remotely near as quiet as it has been the past few weeks. While construction work has stopped, there has been very little of note to report with any of the non-construction road schemes since the year began.

It's odd because the NTA are ploughing ahead with the PT projects but there seems to be very little happening with the roads projects.

Of course, the depressing thought of the anti-transport Green Party with their ridiculous 20% funding for walking and cycling being in Government is becoming more real by the day.

Well Ireland is currently sitting 27th out of 28 EU countries for progress towards the 2020 overall renewable energy targets so you can't really blame them in so ways.

We haven't a clue when it comes to renewables or sustainable energy and/or transport.

marno21

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Well Ireland is currently sitting 27th out of 28 EU countries for progress towards the 2020 overall renewable energy targets so you can't really blame them in so ways.

We haven't a clue when it comes to renewables or sustainable energy and/or transport.

Maybe if we stopped burning peat to make power (and subsidising it) and started exploiting the vast offshore wind resources we have would be a good way to start working on decarbonising electricity?

Or maybe if we actually built some public transport projects like Metrolink instead of stalling it in case people who need to drive to Mortons are inconvenienced would help our transport emissions?

Some actual workable proposals from the Green Party as to how to move towards our targets in a reasonably feasible manner rather than attacking the road programme every 5 minutes would be useful.

Also useful to point out also that the period during which the Green Party was in Government last was the Government term which opened the most motorway by far in the history of the State

Aontachtoir

Over the weekend Green Party figures publicly and privately have spelled out the kind of measures that would be required to achieve their carbon reduction red line for entering government (as reported here in the Times).

It's pretty much what has been discussed here, but it is helpful to know that they are genuinely pushing for these changes to be enacted. In relation to the National Development Plan, they propose to halt major road projects, including new motorways in general (the A5 and Galway City ring road are singled out). A 100 km/h national speed limit on motorways is also proposed. Other changes include mothballing a third runway at Dublin Airport and hiking air passenger taxes, congestion charges and ending free parking spaces in Dublin, etc etc.

Marno's point that the Greens' last time in government saw the most kilometres of motorway built in the state - ever - is somewhat reassuring, but this time I think this time they have far, far more leverage.

prunudo

Whats the 3rd runway for Dublin? Are they referring to the one that is currently being built which technically a third but second east west runway? I wasn't aware there was another one in the plans.

L1011

There is no proposal for a further/fourth runway. There are some bat**** proposals - from a private speculator - for a third *terminal* but they're going nowhere.

Nothing the Greens can do will stop the nearly completed parallel runway coming in to use. Thank feck.

There is zero chance they'll get all they want in coalition; simply because there'll be ECB/EIB helicopter money for infra dev and only whats already in progress can be delivered quickly.

Also their leader is a proven incompetent liability as a minister.

Leonard Hofstadter

FF and FG will never get votes from anyone outside of the M50 if they agree to even half of this. I didn't vote for Fine Gael nearly three months ago so they could make all of our lives miserable when Covid-19 is over and to totally sell out the 67% of people who don't live in Dublin just so Leo and co could hang on to the Mercs (or soon, EV fridge freezers) and perks.

All those ideas are once again showing just how utterly detached from reality the Green Party are.

Either they have no concept whatsoever of life outside of the capital, which makes them incompetent given how 2/3rds of the population don't live there, and therefore are unfit for Government, or else they do know, and just don't care, in which case they are also utterly unfit for Government.

One of the whole points of having a motorway network is that we can get about the place quicker and reduce journey times. Higher speed limits means a better quality of life, because we spend less time commuting, and better job opportunities and a greater chance of locating well paid jobs outside of the capital (which I would have thought a party like the Greens would be in favour given Dublin's chronic traffic and housing shortages).

Motorways were designed with the express intention of allowing higher speed travel in a perfectly safe manner, so of course we should make use of them and do proper speeds on them, before I get the 'won't somebody think of the children' (I'm sure the children of parents who have to commute to work would like to see more of their parents - which higher speed limits facilitate in any case) and 'all speed of any description is bad' type of arguments.

The speed limits on our motorways are low by European standards as it is, just 120 km/h compared to 130 in France and Italy, 140 in Poland and of course, none at all on over 50% of Germany's motorways. The UK is just 70 mph (113 km/h) however thanks to a quirk in the UK's policing guidelines, you can actually do 79 mph (127 km/h) on a motorway in England and Wales before you will get a ticket for speeding. Even the Dutch, which have reduced their motorway speed limits to only 100 km/h, still allow you to do 130 between 7 pm and 6 am.

I have better things to do with my life than waste an hour of my life every time I want to make a trip from Dublin to Cork because of some stupid moronic Green party demand.

They ought to remember that while they got a record 7% of the vote (which, co-incidentally is exactly the same percentage of people who said climate action was an issue for them in the recent election), 93% of us still did not vote for them. I think you'll find 93% is a much greater number than 7%, and we deserve to have our voices heard, too.

marno21

The Green Party's proposals above would pretty much ruin the Irish economy and send us back to the early 20th century.

One thing that's missing from this debate is that Ireland accounts for much less than 1% of world's emissions - and per capita emissions in Ireland - while bad by European standards (even though agri emissions are counted at source making us seem worse - why don't Saudi Arabia have oil combustion emissions counted at source then?) are about half that of North America's emissions. The Green Party agenda in Ireland is so off the wall bat**** it shouldn't even be considered.

If anything remotely near the above is implemented there will be widespread backlash from rural areas. It's not remotely tenable stuff.

The levels of extremism they are presenting would make you wonder exactly what the problem with Sinn Fein is. These ideas make Sinn Fein look right wing.

Donegal Storm

Every time the Greens start to gain a bit of popularity they just blow themselves out of the water with their nonsense. They want to mothball a runway that's 90% complete, maintain the status quo of the pathetic 1900's era road network in the SW & NW, ruin whatever will be left of our aviation industry, ruin the farming industry and have a roads budget that would barely cover yearly maintenance.

Their policies are all based on ideology without even a hint of consideration of consequences or the reality of the situation on the ground, every one of those policies leads to a reduced quality of life for the majority of the population

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

The levels of extremism they are presenting would make you wonder exactly what the problem with Sinn Fein is.

I think the main problem with Sinn Féin is its past and ongoing support for the IRA. That makes it radioactive to other parties (and rightly so), although who knows, maybe they won't need them after the next election.

In the meantime, hopefully the Greens will be bought off with the things the article describes as "easy wins" like rewetting the bogland, and real investment in public transport (if they can bring themselves to not oppose Bus Connects or the metro because a tree or two needs to be chopped down). The M20, the Galway bypass, the A5, all these things are too important to this country to leave aside.

Leonard Hofstadter

Yes the whole IRA thing is one of the reasons (but far from the only one) I dislike them. Their refusal to recognise this country and call it by its proper name is another one (there is no such country called 'this state' or 'statelet', or 'the 26 counties'), along with the types of thing their supporters get up to - be it singing Wolfe Tones songs at a count centre, or the Trump-style tactics used by their supporters online, wilfully spreading fake news and/or misrepresenting what other parties or the media have said, and ignoring the facts. Then there is the absolutely shameless populism - I find it ironic that their success in the recent election was on convincing the electorate here that the country is a dump with no healthcare or housing to speak of, while spouting on all the crap they do about uniting the Republic with Northern Ireland, it's as if they think people up there cannot read what is said online or are completely unaware of what goes on down here :rolleyes:.

Anyway, back more on topic, I am glad that both FF and FG haven't completely lost it and are not committing to the 7% reduction every year and are framing it in terms of how to protect jobs and rural Ireland, etc. Still not optimistic about any roads projects for the forseeable future, though. I guess the M28 and M21 are just about the only ones that will definitely get done, and then only because we are required to by EU directives (I think the money has already been set aside for these anyway?).

hans aus dtschl

I expect N22 upgrade to continue also.
All others I know of, we don't really have a clear idea of yet (Dunkettle, M20, for instance)

Leonard Hofstadter

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I expect N22 upgrade to continue also.
All others I know of, we don't really have a clear idea of yet (Dunkettle, M20, for instance)

Anything with the contract signed will have to continue, even the Greens aren't going to stop that, so the N22 will continue as planned, thankfully.

They also can't stop the N56 Dungloe to Glenties (Phase 3 Kilkenny to Letterilly) and Mountcharles to Inver, finishing the M7 / Sallins bypass,
the N86, N5 Westport to Castlebar, and the N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin, they will be done no matter what.

I can't see how they can get out of doing the M21 and M28 given that we must follow the TEN-T EU directive on ports (not that it will stop them from trying:rolleyes:), starting from scratch will take too much time and they have to be done by 2030. Wouldn't the TEN-T directive cover Cork to Limerick in some sort of weird way, or did I completely make that bit of it up?

Reuben1210

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Anything with the contract signed will have to continue, even the Greens aren't going to stop that, so the N22 will continue as planned, thankfully.

They also can't stop the N56 Dungloe to Glenties (Phase 3 Kilkenny to Letterilly) and Mountcharles to Inver, finishing the M7 / Sallins bypass,
the N86, N5 Westport to Castlebar, and the N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin, they will be done no matter what.

I can't see how they can get out of doing the M21 and M28 given that we must follow the TEN-T EU directive on ports (not that it will stop them from trying:rolleyes:), starting from scratch will take too much time and they have to be done by 2030. Wouldn't the TEN-T directive cover Cork to Limerick in some sort of weird way, or did I completely make that bit of it up?

We can count on one thing as pretty sure: Eamon Ryan will be personally invested in stopping the upgrade of the N11 between Bray and Coynes Cross, as he was one of the original 'Eco-warriors' who lived in the trees of the Glen of the Downs, opposing the original upgrade....

jimmycrackcorm

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Every time the Greens start to gain a bit of popularity they just blow themselves out of the water with their nonsense. They want to mothball a runway that's 90% complete, maintain the status quo of the pathetic 1900's era road network in the SW & NW, ruin whatever will be left of our aviation industry, ruin the farming industry and have a roads budget that would barely cover yearly maintenance.

Their policies are all based on ideology without even a hint of consideration of consequences or the reality of the situation on the ground, every one of those policies leads to a reduced quality of life for the majority of the population

It's unrealistic to say to the people of Donegal that you will have to just put up with the crappy A5 (even though it's in the north) that we had committed to improving, if road infrastructure is cut away. I've often been stuck behind slow moving vehicles for the best part of an hour on it. Between very busy traffic and the lack of opportunities to overtake, it badly needs upgrading. I don't know what Ryans alternative is.

hans aus dtschl

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's unrealistic to say to the people of Donegal that you will have to just put up with the crappy A5 (even though it's in the north) that we had committed to improving, if road infrastructure is cut away. I've often been stuck behind slow moving vehicles for the best part of an hour on it. Between very busy traffic and the lack of opportunities to overtake, it badly needs upgrading. I don't know what Ryans alternative is.

I'm not disagreeing with you whatsoever, but the M20 is in a broadly similar category. Long promised and overdue. But I wouldn't be betting on it getting done.

Leonard Hofstadter

Yes, the M20, M28, M21 Adare bypass, Galway City bypass, Newcastle West, Abbeyfeale bypass, and many others, badly need to be done, Covid-19 pandemic or not.

BelfastVanMan

Reuben1210 wrote: »

We can count on one thing as pretty sure: Eamon Ryan will be personally invested in stopping the upgrade of the N11 between Bray and Coynes Cross, as he was one of the original 'Eco-warriors' who lived in the trees of the Glen of the Downs, opposing the original upgrade....

...ironically, damaging a lot of the trees, along with his cohorts, in the process.

marno21

Eamon Ryan was on Newstalk today talking about making Ireland a world leader in offshore wind energy generation. It was refreshing to hear him being practical on air. No mention of cancelling road projects or diverting the N20 through Tipperary

Time to temporarily retire the word "crackpots".

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan was on Newstalk today talking about making Ireland a world leader in offshore wind energy generation. It was refreshing to hear him being practical on air. No mention of cancelling road projects or diverting the N20 through Tipperary

Time to temporarily retire the word "crackpots".

Fully on board with renewable energy production, but let's wait until the program for government is finalised before we retire the c-word.

Baldilocks

Regarding Eamonn Ryan not mentioning abolishing the roads program - 1 Swallow doesn't make a summer.....

When the green party grow up and accept that life involves making difficult choices, I'll take them seriously (this is coming from someone who is growing some fruit and veg in the garden, is composting the food waste, etc.)

Will the greens get onboard with Bus-Connects?
Will they stop blindly fighting against incinerators (they are far better than landfill, and light years more environmentally responsible than putting the waste on a boat to .... anywhere but here)
I'm all for more renewable energy (eg: wind), but what will be done with the excess capacity (last year we were at times, off-peak and a bit of wind about, able to meet our needs by wind alone), but will the green party get onboard with the creation of several more Turlough hills??