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Should Irish be made optional at schools.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    igCorcaigh wrote: »
    I don't see why any subject should be compulsory after the junior cert.

    Are eigenvectors and Shakespearean sonnets so important to the life of a 17 year old?

    More time should be made for essential life management skills like cooking, budgeting and civic literacy.

    You make an interesting point. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Not much point coming out of school encyclopedic re. Horace's odes but unable to fix a bicycle puncture. On the other hand I've met people who were very good with their hands but shouldn't be allowed near cattle, never mind children or other human beings. And one or two of them were teachers! Maybe there should be a balance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Actually, the children who are strong in their mother tongue and then learn English will be in a stronger position to learn other languages, because they already have the concepts of multiple languages.

    So far I've only once seen an African-origin youngster telling an Irish priest how to pronounce something in his own native language once - but I expect to see it more often over time. I almost died from suppressing the LOLs.

    Many of the African adults who come here have their tribal language, French, English and maybe some others too. Many Eastern Europeans have their own language and a bit of Russian as well as a bit of English.

    Yes, for some kids (with less well educated parents) Irish is difficult.

    But leaving them out of it just cuts them out from job and study options down the line.

    The reality is that until recently Ireland was for the most part a monolingual society. Contrast for example Dr. Zamenhof, the man who devised Esperanto, a Polish Jew who in his youth was exposed to Polish, Yiddish, German, Russian and Hebrew.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Just in case anyone missed it. The poll finished up 3 days ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    I'm amazed that 34.34% voted that Irish shouldn't be optional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I'm amazed that 34.34% voted that Irish shouldn't be optional.

    They must love seeing students stress their butts off. :mad:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭wheresmahbombs


    I expected less to vote no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I'd be very interested to see a similar pool for the 16-20 age group. Seeing as they are the most relevant demographic.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1 gazmcc


    Great news guys, there is now a petition on change.org to get Irish made optional for the Leaving cert. Type into google "make Irish an optional language" and it should pop up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    You joined 7 years ago, and decide that today, on this 4 year-old zombie thread, to post your very first post.

    I'd love to hear the story behind that. In English or Irish. Not having a go at you, I genuinely find it intriguing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Irish should be made mandatory in schools not optional.

    The biggest mistake this country made was not actively switching our language away from English and moving out of the Anglosphere.

    Instead we allowed the post colonial inferiority complex of our chattering class (who were mostly anglophiles) to fester



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,707 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    This. 100%

    Adults by and large have themselves opted out of speaking it, but are happy to let kids do all the work, whether they like it or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Make it optional for leaving cert. Make it conversational only in primary school. No poems, no stories, no prayers etc. Nothing like that. It might even be worth doing it conversationally only until junior cert. Irish was historically taught as a cultural thing. It'd be like trying to learn Spanish by studying Cervantes in Spanish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,552 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    100% Yes in secondary school. Religion too. I imagine most kids detest Irish. Complete waste of time for those people that don't want to do it.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,171 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Only ultra national language fascists come out with the like of this. Aodhan O'Riordan sensibly recently suggested that higher level Irish be dropped as a requirement to start teacher training and he's absolutely right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭Kurooi


    The 16-20 age group would also tell you English and Maths shouldn't be taught either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭Kurooi


    As for OP or general thread, there are steps there missing. You can't just have some students do extra classes. Those who opt not to do Irish should then logically pick up an extra foreign language. Any good parent will not be happy with their kids sitting around.

    So say you offer Irish or German, now many good parents would pick German seeing it gives more opportunities in life, even if they wanted their child to learn Irish, in the best interest of the child they may decide to pick the alternative.

    Leading to the conclusion that nobody should learn Irish. And perhaps for the same reason we should ditch art, poetry, home economics. Better study maths, business, chemistry. Subjects that have the highest payout ratio. I don't hold that view, I would just like to demonstrate the natural progression. I think making Irish optional is a half assed idea that will erase the language entirely. If you want to do that, own it and say that's what you want to happen. Don't sneak it in under the illusion of 'choice'



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,707 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Exactly the sort of tweed jacket wearing Gaelgoir Taliban mindset that has done more harm than good to the language.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,171 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The state can bring in all manner of constitutional and legislative and employment supports it likes for gaeilge but even the most ardent supporter must see that it will never succeed if you force people to learn the language. The far better approach is have children and adults learning & using the language out of choice. This is where the Irish Language movement has failed - instead of taking the hard road and encouraging the population, they've chosen the easier & lazier constitutional and legislative approach, the sledgehammer. We see similar parallels up north as regards the question of border poll etc, an emphasis on legislation and constitution rather than persuasion.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    The most important part of learning Irish is that people learn grammar and from an early age understand the concept languages. That is what I notice here in Switzerland when it comes to learning the language - Irish people find it much easier than English people because they understand grammar. Very often the English have to learn grammar first before they can start learning German or French. And the really crazy one the English come out with: the are afraid to learn German in case the forget English, it took me a while to accept that this really was a genuine concern for some.

    If you want to make Irish optional, then you need to make another language mandatory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,810 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    But we're still very poor by international standards for learning a second language (even if you include Irish as the second)

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,707 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    'If you want to make Irish optional, then you need to make another language mandatory.'

    Why?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Ah yes the classic chattering class riposte, you forgot to mention Peig though.

    Imagine any other European nation considering it to be controversial that they should speak their own language rather than English. Absolutely mental stuff. 😂

    Would also cut the legs out of from under lads like Aodhan who are obsessed with aping those that they perceive as their betters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    Ireland is not France or Germany. The Irish people

    decided over 100 years ago to speak English a large part of out population is not born here ,everyone can speak English how many people speak Irish everyday at home at work imagine looking for a job that does not involve being fluent in English

    Wales is similar everyone speaks English only a minority can speak Welsh

    I thing young people need a good education in

    Maths languages science history I think Irish should be voluntary after the inter cert in the modern world studying french or German would be more useful to a student we are in the eu

    Irish has very little practical value in real life no more than being good at Irish dancing is of use when looking for a job

    When you are at school there's a limited time to spend on learning homework etc We need more students who are ready to go into the building industry carpentry electricians

    Irish has little practical value in real life outside school unles you are a schoolteacher

    How many actually speak Irish after leaving school I'd say very few

    I'm more interested in what people say I don't think you become a magical genius just because you can talk to to someone in Irish

    and most people can't understand what you are saying after you say conas a ta Tu ?

    An idiot who speaks in Irish or English is still an idiot

    I'm not saying people who want to should not study Irish and I think it's part of our culture



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,655 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The poster explained the benefits of learning a second language from a young age already.

    Note that s/he did not say you need to make French or German or the more useful Mandarin or Spanish compulsory. Just a second language. Any one will do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Oh, I'm not saying they should make the decision - I'm just saying their opinion should be taken into account. Otherwise, what's the point of educating them at all...?

    In any case, I'm in favour of no mandatory subjects for the Leaving for reasons you can find on previous pages of this thread.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,972 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Two fallacies there:

    1 - Parents don't pick the leaving cert subjects, the students do '

    2 - The idea that if the student drops Irish, they do nothing to replace it.

    The last paragraph is a bit of a paradox: you're promoting students doing expressive subjects (which I agree with) while rejecting the idea that students expressing themselves by forcing them to do certain subjects...? Do you want the students expressing themselves or not?

    What's the point in being a poet or an artist if someone dictates to you wat you write or paint?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,810 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Irish people learn a second language every single day from age 4/5 for thirteen years yet fail spectacularly to realise any benefit from it, whether in that language or in any others.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,810 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    All that stuff about "payout ratio" is nonsense. Many STEM careers pay spectacularly badly. Some pay very well but the LC is a poor gauge of how good a software developer a person will be, for instance.

    And if you want to do a high-points third level course, once you have met the minimum requirements - which rarely if ever include physics as so many schools don't offer it - in almost all cases something like geography or bizorg will do just as well as taking an additional science subject actually relevant to what you're planning to study. Get the points with a lot less effort.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,810 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It must greatly pain the neo-fascists that even the highly conservative Ireland of 100 years ago was not prepared to contemplate that level of totalitarian oppression against its own people.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,655 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Did you miss the post where someone compared the language learning ability of English-educated vs Irish-educated people s/he meets?

    Even if they don't manage to learn any Irish, the Irish-educated people do at least have the concepts of language-learning.



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