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Should Irish be made optional at schools.

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Focus should be on conversational Irish - too much focus on novels, poetry, etc.

    Novels and poetry can be hard enough in English without the added burden of trying to translate.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,934 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    You did it by choice.

    why shouldn’t the kids have a choice ?

    they choose other subjects which they wish to study ! French, German or Italian .. biology, chemistry or Physics

    the next time I encounter Irish shall be when I get on Aer Lingus flight to X destination and hear the announcement or if I end up putting Nuacht on, by accident.

    Young people having options regarding Irish is a civilised, common sense, practical attitude to education.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Exactly how likely do you think the language will die out completely if Irish is made optional? I mean, the inference here is that NO-OINE actually CHOOSES to learn Irish, which I find difficult to believe. And if it was true - that the only thing between Irish and extinction is mandatory LC Irish - it brings me to my next point...

    ... if people are willing to do it ten years after they leave school and if kids aren't allowed the choice: why not flip the argument and make it mandatory for adults to learn it, too? WhyJUST the kids?

    ---

    Also: just to reiterate: I'm in favour of mandatory irish for primary schools - and possibly for Junior Cert. Not Leaving Cert. At some point, you have to accept you;re just wasting peoples' time.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,934 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Because a certain level of education in mandatory for kids.

    No level of education is mandatory for adults.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,794 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Is it true that you need honours Irish to become a teacher?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Yep, it’s just one of the entry requirements for LC students who plan on becoming a teacher -

    https://www.mic.ul.ie/faculty-of-education/programme/bachelor-of-education-primary-teaching-mi005mi006?index=3


    As for the argument as to whether Irish should be compulsory or not in Irish schools, it really speaks for itself - it’s our national and first official language, of course it should be compulsory. Just because it’s not taught well, doesn’t mean the way it’s taught can’t be improved upon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭boardise


    Definitely up there with the crackpot notions of all time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,794 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Completely don't agree but I am a bit shocked that Honours Irish is still a prerequisite for teaching. We have a serious shortage of good teachers with a true vocation so limiting that pool is ridiculous.

    I saw they reduced the religion teaching hours per week from 2.5 hours to 2. It's still 2 hours too much.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    We certainly do have a serious shortage of good teachers, and doing away with the requirement that they be able to teach Irish, in Irish schools, isn’t going to do anything to improve that situation, it’s only going to make a bad situation worse.

    I think you’ve missed the point of the education of the nations children, which isn’t just to prepare children to be able to function in Irish society, but it is to prepare children to contribute to Irish society as adults, some who may even be inspired to become teachers themselves.

    (just don’t tell them the conditions of employment are shìt and they’ll be bogged down underneath a mountain of bureaucracy… ‘vocation’ makes teaching sound more valuable to society than it is in reality where the Irish Government are really getting incredible value for what we spend on education)



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Just a thought.. what happens if a teacher from outside Ireland moves here and looks for a post? With no Irish language.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    There are two ways teachers who qualified outside of Ireland can fulfil the Irish language requirement -

    THE IRISH LANGUAGE REQUIREMENT

    Primary teachers who obtain their teaching qualification outside of the state are required to undertake the Irish Language Requirement in order to achieve full recognition as primary teachers within the Irish Republic.There are two routes to undertake the Irish Language Requirement. Candidates may choose to undertake the Scrúdú le hAghaidh Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge (S.C.G. – Aptitude Test) or they may choose to undertake Oiriúnú le hAghaidh Cáilíochta sa Ghaeilge (O.C.G. – Adaptation Period and Assessment).

    https://ilrweb.ie/



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,245 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Expecting all primary teachers to be enthusiastic and able instructors in both the Irish language and Catholicism (90% of schools) / Protestantism (5%) is completely ridiculous in this day and age.

    Specialist Irish teachers should be introduced at primary level and get religious instruction out of schools entirely.

    As for "the first national language" - Baloney. De Valera writing a fantastical notion into the constitution doesn't make it a fact. Irish was once the most spoken language on this island but that was a very long time ago and that time is gone forever.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    We're not talking about education, we're talking about the language.

    The end goal here (I presume) is more useage of the Irish language - at which point a certain level of anything is unimportant.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    ...but it is to prepare children to contribute to Irish society as adults

    And yet the vast majority manage with very rudimentary Irish.


    Also, it';s not "our" anything - it's yours. And power to you, if that's what you want. But it comes across as arrogant to assume what is and is not important - or even should be important - to 100,000 teenagers. and a sizeable portion of the nation's adults.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You could say that about any subject to be fair.


    Pick a random person who did their leaving 10 years ago and ask them to solve a set of simultaneously equations (basic JC maths) and most won't be able to do it, or even explain it. That isn't a justification for scrapping maths as a subject



  • Registered Users, Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 2,197 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nigel Fairservice


    Ya, that's why I sat the Irish Leaving Cert exam again in my 30s. I didn't end up primary teaching in the end but I took a bit more interest in the language after. I have done a few Irish courses through work as well after I re-sat the Irish exam which I probably would never have done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Don't be lying. You're really that yank Des Bishop aren't you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    So what, then, are the criteria for a subject being mandatroy for the Leaving?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    No. I wrote what I meant - The fact that a lot of people might leave school with a low level of command of a subject is not justification for anything (except for maybe firing useless teachers).

    Sure what are the average points in the Leaving? Is it even 300? Most people are doing sh1t at at least a few subjects. On the old scale of a maximum of 600 points I think it was less than 300. Not sure how the new scales would modify that. Not too many of those people would be sitting in labs curing cancer now if they could have done Business instead of Irish.


    Edit: My post doesn't make sense now because you changed your one. It had asked if I meant to say "Irish" instead of "maths".


    The condition for a subject being mandatory would be it being fundamental knowledge. Given that a language gets to the heart of a nation, and also to history etc, I would say Irish is indeed important. Why not have it as part of a core curriculum.

    If you don't want to spend time on it, you don't have to. Plenty of students spend minimal time on what they choose they don't want to learn



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Firstly, apologies for the edit!

    "Being fundamental knowledge" - what does this mean?

    As for the "heart of the nation" - that's perilosly close to the Pearse quote fallacy - lots of countries have adopted prime languages and still have hearts and souls - take Brazil for example. Very vibrant culture and passionate soul, but Portugeese speaking instead of English.

    Also, you've fallen into the same trap as Jack did in assuming that what is important to a nation is therefore imporant to every individual within it, so I ask you te asme question: What gives you the right to speak for 100,000 students and pretty much the poluation of an entire coiuntry?

    I could also use your ratriuonale to make arguments for History and Religion to be mandatory subjects as well as mandatory Gaelic football and hurling in PE - are tey not "the heart of the nation" as well.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    It should be optional after the JC. Forcing Irish on those who struggle with it is unhealthy for the actual Irish language.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It is knowledge and it is an additional language. I don't get the big deal with it. If you feel that you were deprived of learning another subject, well you could take up that subject as an adult and probably cover the entire curriculum for that subject in about 2-3 months in your spare time. I mean, if you sat down, you could probably cover the material in a week for any of them. Except for maybe, ironically, languages.

    I think the vast majority of students do at least one "spare" subject. Some do more. There is absolutely nothing stopping any student from dropping down to Foundation Level Irish should they so wish and basically ignoring the subject and spending their time on other subjects if they want. Nobody is forcing you to aim for an A in honour level Irish.

    I am sure that in the real world, be it your job or your life in general, you had to learn plenty of things that weren't otherwise directly transferable. We can't have an a complete la carte school system. I get that people think they are special and want their own idea of a bespoke system applied to everyone, but that is the system that is there and you should just get on with it.

    If the students go on to college, even though they are more specialised there, they will still undoubtedly have to learn things that they won't directly use again either. It doesn't mean those things should be removed from those curricula either



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The "Ah shur, if we get rid of Irish we might as well get rid of everything" line crops up on these threads from time to time.

    Not all subjects are equal. Most, if not all LC subjects have applications in most walks of life. Irish does not. It has none whatsoever unless you want to enter the cushy world of writing Irish textbooks and producing material for the government in Irish. That's literally it. It's not the national language and arguably never has been.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    So tell us, which LC subject were you deprived of, which would have changed your life, and you would be unable to learn the curriculum from scratch today in a few weeks if you really actually wanted to



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    People can learn Irish in a few weeks? I'd like to see proof of that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Hmm. Try reading the post again. You may even refer to the previous one above where I explicitly excluded languages when I brought up that point first


    And please do feel free to make an attempt at answering the question rather than deflecting or avoiding it



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It'd be nice if you could actually make a point that I can engage with instead of pretending languages can be fully learned in a few weeks.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Nobody said that they could be. I explicitly excluded them above


    You can keep avoiding the question or you can answer it. Up to you. If you don't want to tell us, then I'll assume there isn't one



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    It feels like you're going for moral highground as none of this addresses the iussue and trhe rest is just an eppeal to emotion.

    You didn't defnne "being fundamental knowledge" - I'm assuming it's something that sounded good in your head but makes no sense when examined.

    The rest of your arguments are absoultely nothing to do wih the csae for mandatory irish.

    • Take the interested topic later in life - why should they? How is mandatory Irish in the best interests of the student here?
    • Spare subjects is an excuse, not an argument. It doesn't address the issue .
    • They have the option to do lower case Irish - so what? Same.
    • We can't have an a la carte education system (so what?)
    • People think they're special - (do they??) And if so, so what again?
    • Studewnts have to learn things they'll never use again - bizarre argument to put forward as a positive in ANY education debate.


    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Students are exposed to many things during their education. You are taught Irish to give you the exposure to it. That you don't like it or don't have the capacity to learn it, cannot be known until you do it. It is still important to get that exposure


    But regardless, you can answer the question. What did you miss out on learning, due to having to sit for Irish, that you couldn't have learned anyway as an adult in a few weeks?

    (As above, I excluded languages from that explicitly as I correctly anticipated some fluffy response along that lines)



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