BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

jmayo

evolving_doors wrote: »

Like I'm still reading about him doing x,y,z. And that's fine, he broke no rules.

But why not acknowledge the mother.
A few years ago a winner did acknowledge her mother and it was stared in the media that it was her area of expertise.

But the fact that it's the mother's exact field of research, i think, needs mention of acknowledgement! I haven't heard this from him or the media.

Grandfather herbalist deceased!
Mother microbiologist in the lab where he did the experiments!
Grandfather herbalist deceased!
Mother microbiologist in the lab where he did the experiments!

Why omit the mother?

It is a purely cynical excercise to diffuse someone looking too closely at the background.

He was bound to be asked who influenced him and it wouldn't have looked so good if he mentioned mammy, you know the one that worked in this area, the one that without doubt allowed him, through her connections, access to specialist equipment and technicians/scientists and most importantly of all, the one who had already in dept knowledge of this field of research.

So rather than drag mammy into this it suited better that grandpappy was the one to be the one mentioned.
After all he was a botanist, herbalist so that could explain his use of local plants and the added bonus is the old heart strings are pulled.

Now maybe he did influence the kid, but it is stretching credulity to huge lengths that mammy, who has worked in this exact field of research, had no influence on the project.

Also another worrying aspect of this project winning was fact that the primary judge in this category is quoted as saying the project was original, groundbreaking and the results were surprising.
No Prof the only thing surprising was you not knowing the same type of research was carried out 10 years previously by a student in the very same city linked to people and organisations (CIT/UCC, CUH) that the Prof would know.

This is more important I believe than what the discussion here has been diverted to, i.e. access to labs in universities and hospitals, the use of high end equipment and scientists in those organisations.

That fits in perfectly with the argument by one poster about him not breaking the rules.
He just played footsie with them which is a traditional Irish custom and go to slogan when someone is caught most particularly using resources or spending taxpayers money.
If I recall correctly Mary Harney's mate in Fás wasn't breaking any rules when his wife traveled first class with him on junkets and neither was she when she used government jets and Air Corp aircraft for personal use.

Nah it's not breaking any rules, but it is getting a very unfair advantage through connections, all for one's personal gain.

jmcc

weldoninhio wrote: »

The Irish Times seems to have become the BTYS puff piece paper of choice.

The IT needs the advertising revenue as it is declining in circulation. Fewer people are buying the Irish Times these days and it is heading down for the 50K copies a day mark.

Regards...jmcc

judeboy101

Did any of this come up at the Saturday teacher meeting in RDS ?

5rtytry56

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did any of this come up at the Saturday teacher meeting in RDS ?

Only transition year teachers talking about whose bright wonderful pupils took part and if a teachers pupil actually won a prize.

Mardy Bum

I wonder if you held a writing competition - essay, short story, feature atricle etc. and an entrant received guidance from a parent (prominent writer) and some expert writers that your parent knows; would the student still be considered a winner if they could explain why they used this guidance and for instance didn't include some other pieces of guidance.

The student now knows a lot about how to write following all this guidance but really didn't know a huge amount originally or contribute to the piece of writing.

granturismo

jmayo wrote: »

I

Nah it's not breaking any rules, but it is getting a very unfair advantage through connections, all for one's personal gain.

I was of same opinion and have been thinking of removing my posts in this thread but I think the winner didnt break any rules, he would have been interviewed by judges so obviously was able to show his subject knowledge his ability to interpret his results.

I would compare him to a farmer's child who has access to a herd/crops to carry out an animal husbandry/crop science project. This student has grown up with experts and other experts are only one phone call away, if my child wants to do an agricultural based project I dont know anyone who could give my child direct access to a farm.

If BTYS want to change the rule for declaring analytics carried out in a company or college, they need other participants to declare for eg if there is a coding or maths expert in the house or what level of help their farming family gave them.

Professionally, this showed poor judgement from his mother but well done to the lad.

judeboy101

5rtytry56 wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did any of this come up at the Saturday teacher meeting in RDS ?

Only transition year teachers talking about whose bright wonderful pupils took part and if a teachers pupil actually won a prize.

2 years ago I went to the Saturday meeting and some poor fool had the gall to highlight the fact the the winning project contravened a little known dept of ed circular which was issued to schools 2 years before. I haven't seen her or her school there since.

cookie1977

They seem very resistant to any sort of change or any discussion around it.
https://twitter.com/PriscillaORegan/status/954680843322187776

judeboy101

There's a lot of skin in the game to resist change. Scott has his legacy, the judges have their 4day juncket, the teachers have their travel awards and pull with the principal if they do well and the parents get to live out their academic dreams through their kids. It's no surprise that schools outside Dublin travel in big numbers while Dublin schools are proportionally under represented, Scott has refused point blank to move to more modern facilities in Dublin, Belfast or cork for years. Both google and intel have reduced their presence at the exhibition over the years as they invest in their own science fairs.

Muahahaha

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The Irish media can be really insufferable at times, they seem to spend time covering up/blatantly ignoring aspects of stories rather than asking questions when questions need to be asked. No wonder they are in severe decline when they refuse to perform their most basic of functions.

joe40

There is the "letter of the law" and the "spirit of the law". Everyone knows the issues namely a student project where a parent is a research scientist with experience in the exact same project. Easy access to third level institutions through parent, and finally failure to acknowledge any of this in media interviews (don't know about interviews with judges).
For me this definitely goes against the spirit of the law, but maybe that counts for nothing.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Roger Hassenforder

granturismo wrote: »

I would compare him to a farmer's child who has access to a herd/crops to carry out an animal husbandry/crop science project. This student has grown up with experts and other experts are only one phone call away, if my child wants to do an agricultural based project I dont know anyone who could give my child direct access to a farm.

its an argument not without merit, but usually farmers' kids grow up on the farm. They help out on the farm, learning to drive tractors at 8, helping lamb at 4am before school, helping the AI man wash his hands after, picking stones, digging drains etc. They're usually immersed in it from birth.

this however, was a 15 year old kid, who used an old project his mother supervised, used third level laboratory equipment his mother had access to , and had his analysis performed for him on dangerous pathogens by someone else. But his grandfather because something.

You're right though, I blame the mother. This kid could well be genius, but his win is tarnished somewhat because of his mother. If she'd even picked something completely new for him.

TheAnalyst_

Fred Swanson wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

There is the "letter of the law" and the "spirit of the law". Everyone knows the issues namely a student project where a parent is a research scientist with experience in the exact same project. Easy access to third level institutions through parent, and finally failure to acknowledge any of this in media interviews (don't know about interviews with judges).
For me this definitely goes against the spirit of the law, but maybe that counts for nothing.

That seems to be the thrust of the BT PR person. No rules broken, nothing to see here, shut up all yee trolls.

But how can they reconcile that with the European event which we are hosting this year. Its pretty embarrassing awarding first place to chap that can't even attend because his project breaks a number of rules.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

cookie1977

Interesting article in todays Sunday Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-little-help-from-their-friend-t22j5h5bt

https://twitter.com/JohnBurnsST/status/954828415101755392

Not like the one sided news all week.

thesandeman

Has this been mentioned ANYWHERE on RTE? You would expect Joe Duffy to be all over it but he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

The Rape of Lucretia

thesandeman wrote: »

Has this been mentioned ANYWHERE on RTE? You would expect Joe Duffy to be all over it but he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

What do you mean ? There is a BT side to his bread ?

_Dara_

cookie1977 wrote: »

Interesting article in todays Sunday Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-little-help-from-their-friend-t22j5h5bt

https://twitter.com/JohnBurnsST/status/954828415101755392

Not like the one sided news all week.

Good to see but still no mention that his mother works in the exact area of research of his project.

suicide_circus

_Dara_ wrote: »

Good to see but still no mention that his mother works in the exact area of research of his project.

they probably dont want to target this young fella too directly and are just making the general point

Fann Linn

_Dara_ wrote: »

Good to see but still no mention that his mother works in the exact area of research of his project.

If they were to do that other people might come to the idea that there is 'something fishy about the Young Scientist award

_Dara_

suicide_circus wrote: »

they probably dont want to target this young fella too directly and are just making the general point

Sure, I understand that. And I’m not keen on his photo being emblazoned across that questioning article. But it’s the most damning part of the whole thing, IMO. I again can’t believe his folks allowed him to be put under this spotlight and didn’t step in.

Deep_learning

Deep_learning wrote: »

I've long been dubious of the performance of schools such as Coláiste Choilm and Kinsale Community school in BTYS.


For example, it's interesting to note in the link below that not a single student from either Coláiste Choilm or Kinsale Community school qualified for the Irish Science Olympiad.


http://castel.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/IrEUSO-2017-Finalists.pdf


Surely, if all these students were all as brilliant in science as their projects suggest, loads of them would be qualifying for the Irish Science Olympiad by scoring high marks in science and maths in the Junior Cert? Yet, not a single student from either school scored high enough marks in maths and science in a state examination in order to qualify for the Olympiad.

Strange that.

evolving_doors wrote: »

Olympiad is a totally different animal.
BTYS is about 1 or 2 students making a solo run on a longitudinal study.
Similarly teachers/schools can choose to focus on particular competition(s). I know of a few schools where BTYS is timetabled for a whole yeargroupp.

Surely, there should be some correlation between the two?

whiteknight12

Deep_learning wrote: »

Surely, there should be some correlation between the two?

The only correlation with Kinsale is with UCC and local pharma. The subsequent leaving cert results do not reflect the BTYS

jmayo

granturismo wrote: »

I was of same opinion and have been thinking of removing my posts in this thread but I think the winner didnt break any rules, he would have been interviewed by judges so obviously was able to show his subject knowledge his ability to interpret his results.

I would compare him to a farmer's child who has access to a herd/crops to carry out an animal husbandry/crop science project. This student has grown up with experts and other experts are only one phone call away, if my child wants to do an agricultural based project I dont know anyone who could give my child direct access to a farm.

If BTYS want to change the rule for declaring analytics carried out in a company or college, they need other participants to declare for eg if there is a coding or maths expert in the house or what level of help their farming family gave them.

Professionally, this showed poor judgement from his mother but well done to the lad.

Very poor comparison.
The farmers kid wouldn't have access to the high end equipment and resources that this kid had.
There are thousands of farms, there are only a few research facilities with the types of resources this kid used.

Now if it was the kid of a teagasc research scientist or some such then you might have a more valid comparison.

BTW you honed in on just my last line about not breaking rules re use of equipment.
My bigger concern is how close his actual "groundbreaking" research is to that his mother oversaw.

And the fact the primary judge in the category hadn't a clue about research carried out by people and organisations he no doubt knows is another huge question mark.

whiteknight12 wrote: »

The only correlation with Kinsale is with UCC and local pharma. The subsequent leaving cert results do not reflect the BTYS

It would be an interesting undertaking to do an analysis of the project types these schools put in.
What percentage are related to pharma, environmental, biology, microbiology ?

I’ve stated previously that I won’t point any finger on any one individual in terms of this years winming entry, simply because I don’t agree that’s the way to go.

but very happy to attack the “process” . I do think it’s something that needs attention so that future winners don’t have to be subjected to this level of criticism again.

Replicating or adding to PHD level research is simply not what YS was about in my day.

Saying that, in these times of innovation, ideas can’t be stifled either. I don’t think there’s a solution to the concept of “fairness” because there’s unfairness in society. But certainly I don’t want to see these type of threads next year.

deezell

MAORISH wrote: »

Well I really feel sorry for this lad plastered on the paper like this as he has had his whole big win severely tarnished and his parents should never have allowed this.

Parents would have known the previous research and the connections would all come out. He is a child at the end of the day and I am sure the snide remarks at his school towards him have already started. It doesn't take much for teens to be cruel. I can imagine he is not feeling like he won 7.5k

BT might be more careful in picking a winner in future but they will not mention this as then it will look like that they stuffed up this year or an admission of error.

I can see lots of schools bowing out now as it is gone far beyond a 2nd level competition and so many schools can't compete with the ones that have so much access to 3rd level facilities.

I couldn't have said it better. In the interests of child protection, I feel the above should be the last post. This thread has made it's point and can be safely closed.

Roger Hassenforder

deezell wrote: »

I couldn't have said it better. In the interests of child protection, I feel the above should be the last post. This thread has made it's point and can be safely closed.

That yourself Priscilla?

deezell

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

That yourself Priscilla?

Check my earlier posts, dope.

deezell

deezell wrote: »

Check my earlier posts, dope.

As you can see I’ve also made a similar post and other posts around attacking the process not the people
But some people on this thread are out for blood and nothing will get in their way.

I’m finished with this thread myself. I thank the AH mods with their patience with me on my point of information I raised by PM and I’m thankful the thread title was changed as a result of that.
This is my final post on this thread.