BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

19-01-2018 7:40pm

jmcc wrote: »

What journalists who covered this story have a hard Science background with enough knowledge to question the narrative being spun? How many of them are just Arts/Journalism graduates working to a press release?

Regards...jmcc

Can't say I've stalked them on LinkedIn but from your post i've no doubt you have.:eek::eek::eek:

Owryan · 19-01-2018 7:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't view it that they're trying to "bury" the criticism but I'm also acutely aware that I don't hold as strong a negative view on this year's winner as some other posters and social media commentators do.

"Fairness" is never going to be achieved simply because society isn't "fair"- so don't hold your breath on that one- "more balanced", "greater opportunities for skilled assistance from 3rd level institutions", " a separate category for the "super-intelligent or "heavily supported"? - might be the best you can achieve.

I do think it's unfair this years' winner has taken the brunt of the criticism by people who aren't familiar with either the detail of his work, and the YS process.
I learned a little more about his project from reading that IT article and it truly was exceptional work. His inspiration is firmly rooted in the botanical (hence his Grandfather acknowledgment) not in laboratory testing - which he's clearly documented anyway.

Meehan’s research was not sent off to be done in a laboratory by others, he said. Instead, he used high-performance liquid chromatography in tandem with mass spectrometry equipment at UCC, having been shown how the equipment worked.
His work on bacteria was his, although he was not able to work directly on the infectious MRSA bug. What really impressed judges was his referencing of other literature, and his highlighting of differences with his results, said the UCD academic.
“There was a surprising amount of self-criticism and he does point out the limitations of his work. Something very interesting was his combining of two things – traditional herbalism and science,” Ó Cróinín adds.

But part of the praise he received for his project was based on the experiments "he" carried out. At the time there was no mention that they were not his own work.

It's more about the omissions at this stage. Omitted to publicize the role of his mother, omitted to publicly acknowledge the very similar research she carried out. Omitted to publicly discuss the role of others in carrying out his experiments.

I know the last one was one his poster but he never raised it in any interviews i heard. The implication was that he carried out the work.

Now it appears what he actually did was correctly write everything up and reference his research.

jmcc · 19-01-2018 7:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't say I've stalked them on LinkedIn but from your post i've no doubt you have.:eek::eek::eek:

No. I just know from experience in Journalism.

Regards...jmcc

19-01-2018 7:48pm

Owryan wrote: »

But part of the praise he received for his project was based on the experiments "he" carried out. At the time there was no mention that they were not his own work.

What praise? By whom? Links?

Owryan wrote: »

It's more about the omissions at this stage. Omitted to publicize the role of his mother, omitted to publicly acknowledge the very similar research she carried out. Omitted to publicly discuss the role of others in carrying out his experiments.
.

Eh- who cares what he did/ didn't do in the media? All that counts is what happened throughout the YS judging process. Get out of here with your publicity shoite- who cares what a 15 year old does when a camera is shoved in his face- the completion is over- he won- suck it up- move on.:rolleyes:

19-01-2018 7:51pm

jmcc wrote: »

No. I just know from experience in Journalism.

Regards...jmcc

Oh right

Owryan · 19-01-2018 7:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What praise? By whom? Links?

Eh- who cares what he did/ didn't do in the media? All that counts is what happened throughout the YS judging process. Get out of here with your publicity shoite- who cares what a 15 year old does when a camera is shoved in his face- the completion is over- he won- suck it up- move on.:rolleyes:

Judging by this thread plenty of people seem to care. Especially if he didn't do the work that won him the award. It's entirely legitimate to raise concerns about the transparency of the competition.

My concern is that the competition is no longer a level playing field, that it's no longer about what you know but who you know. Hopefully someone will decide that having guidelines that are not reflected in the rules needs to be addressed.

It's a competition for secondary schools, if the project needs the assistance of 3rd level institutions then it should not be allowed in. That might be a start.

You seem to be taking this very personally, perhaps some blackberry tea is in order.

jmcc · 19-01-2018 7:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh right

So do you know anything about Journalism or are you just a reader?

Regards...jmcc

19-01-2018 8:01pm

Owryan wrote: »

Judging by this thread plenty of people seem to care. Especially if he didn't do the work that won him the award. It's entirely legitimate to raise concerns about the transparency of the competition.

My concern is that the competition is no longer a level playing field, that it's no longer about what you know but who you know. Hopefully someone will decide that having guidelines that are not reflected in the rules needs to be addressed.

It's a competition for secondary schools, if the project needs the assistance of 3rd level institutions then it should not be allowed in. That might be a start.

You seem to be taking this very personally, perhaps some blackberry tea is in order.

Eh, taking it personally? I'm contributing to a debate on the topic at hand and agreeing and disagreeing with posters as they come my way- it's sort of what Boards.ie is all about. You're the one getting personal and baiting me for a response - hun;)

Marty Bird · 19-01-2018 8:01pm

The problem most people have with this so called win is that winners Mother supervised a very similar study 11 years ago and zero mention of it.

19-01-2018 8:02pm

jmcc wrote: »

So do you know anything about Journalism or are you just a reader?

Regards...jmcc

A lot more than you might think. But sorry, I'm not at post doctoral level as you obviously are.

Owryan · 19-01-2018 8:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

hun;)

Oh you sweet talker

jmcc · 19-01-2018 8:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot more than you might think.

Do tell.

Regards...jmcc

19-01-2018 8:15pm

jmcc wrote: »

Do tell.

Regards...jmcc

nah couldn't be bothered because I'm completely bored out of my mind responding to these type of moronic posts and besides, its' completely off topic which is against forum charter, so couldn't even if I was so inclined.

Fred Swanson · 19-01-2018 8:17pm

This post has been deleted.

jmcc · 19-01-2018 8:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

nah couldn't be bothered because I'm completely bored out of my mind responding to these type of moronic posts and besides, its' completely off topic which is against forum charter, so couldn't even if I was so inclined.

So just another random reader.

Perhaps you could better spend your time reading Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc · 19-01-2018 8:23pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The interesting thing is that they are using the usual journalists that people ignore. The power of the print media has been in decline for years. With the Irish Times, it is interesting to watch the number of comments that their opinionators get on their rants. The real battle is being fought on Social Media and BT/BTYSE does seem to be losing.

Regards...jmcc

UsedToWait · 19-01-2018 8:54pm

jmcc wrote: »

Regards...jmcc

As a self declared journalism expert, do you not realise how irritating the affected salutation is on message boards?

Call it bias, in the spirit of the thread, but I tend to skim over such 'authored' posts.
(cf. late of the Brexit thread solodeogloria)

jmcc · 19-01-2018 9:02pm

UsedToWait wrote: »

Call it bias, in the spirit of the thread, but I tend to skim over such 'authored' posts.

Evidently not. But feel free to keep on skimming.

Regards...jmcc

19-01-2018 9:18pm

jmcc wrote: »

So just another random reader. Perhaps you could better spend your time reading Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book.

Regards...jmcc

I'm an Enid Blyton fan myself- you should read The Famous Five. They always solve mystery in the end- you should try it, you might learn something.

jmcc · 19-01-2018 10:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm an Enid Blyton fan myself- you should read The Famous Five. They always solve mystery in the end- you should try it, you might learn something.

This is one mystery that you and others don't seem to want solved. Enid wouldn't be impressed.

Regards...jmcc

19-01-2018 11:20pm

jmcc wrote: »

This is one mystery that you and others don't seem to want solved. Enid wouldn't be impressed.

Regards...jmcc

Ah now Julian. She'd be greatly impressed. Who else is going to provide the red herring but me??

Or, is it YOU? :eek::eek::eek::eek:

:P

Just read the map carefully and head to the underground cave through the secret passage and you'll be fine. But don't follow Timmy as he's going down a rabbit hole:eek:

Roger Hassenforder · 19-01-2018 11:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah now Julian. She'd be greatly impressed. Who else is going to provide the red herring but me??

Or, is it YOU? :eek::eek::eek::eek:

:P

Just read the map carefully and head to the underground cave through the secret passage and you'll be fine. But don't follow Timmy as he's going down a rabbit hole:eek:

and lashings and lashings of Aunt Fanny's ginger beer.
Wasnt Uncle Quintin some form of scientist?)

weldoninhio · 19-01-2018 11:50pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

BT are doing their best to bury this story with puff pieces being deployed in the major papers.

The Irish Times seems to have become the BTYS puff piece paper of choice.

EnMarche! · 19-01-2018 11:54pm

For me the issue at the heart of this is simple. I don't think anyone wants to begrudge this young lad, who clearly must have an interest in science and microbiology, his win. Regardless of the suspicions regarding the mother and previous research the issue for me is about fairness. The issue is that the competition is not a level playing field. How could a student who may be equally as interested and bright as this lad compete with resources like medical scientists at CUH and laboratory equipment at UCC/CIT. The answer is, if they come from a normal school with no connections in the field then they can't compete. That is for me the greatest issue. The deck is stacked against a student who simply doesn't have those resources and the competition is less about innovation and creativity and more about who has the best advantages.

For those arguing that if that's the case students need to just be better, I say that that isn't a realistic proposition. Most ordinary students from normal backgrounds don't have academic connections of any kind, let alone in specific scientific fields. As for how to solve the problem, its simple. No outside equipment/help if everyone can't have it. If you want Universities to be involved then make it so that everyone can get access to those facilities, if that's not possible, then ban it. A level playing field is the only fair and equitable solution, otherwise the competition is pointless for anyone but the elite to enter. If you really want, why not have a separate competition but don't pretend the competition is a fair game if only the most privileged can win.

whiteknight12 · 19-01-2018 11:59pm

Similar reports of insider trading with one of the Kinsale winners a few years back with parents soliciting significant help from academics. It’s a bit fishy like..,, Team Sky for instance.

HandsomeBob · 20-01-2018 10:27am

EnMarche! wrote: »

A level playing field is the only fair and equitable solution, otherwise the competition is pointless for anyone but the elite to enter. If you really want, why not have a separate competition but don't pretend the competition is a fair game if only the most privileged can win.

The issue there is that by introducing a separate competition based on a level playing field, that field needs to be in place from early on in the child's education. Basically the quality of education needs to be invested in regardless of geography. Can't see that happening unfortunately.

To be honest I always assumed that this competition involved a high level of collaboration with and assistance from older and experienced people in the field. I also always assumed it was only accessible to the most "fortunate" in terms of education (can't recall anyone my age in my area code entering). For these reasons, I never really gave a fcuk about the competition so I'm surprised people are only realising now that it might be a bit suspect.

20-01-2018 11:27am

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

and lashings and lashings of Aunt Fanny's ginger beer.
Wasnt Uncle Quintin some form of scientist?)

He was indeed but rumours of him getting assistance for his experiments were unfounded- he was actually so intelligent he was kidnapped for his knowledge.

cookie1977 · 20-01-2018 11:28am

Deleted User wrote: »

He was indeed but rumours of him getting assistance for his experiments were unfounded- he was actually so intelligent he was kidnapped for his knowledge.

Kidnapping was probably the only way students could get access to him unless then knew one of the 5.

20-01-2018 11:34am

cookie1977 wrote: »

Kidnapping was probably the only way students could get access to him unless then knew one of the 5.

So even in Enid Blyton land, it's not what you know, it's who you know:P

Corkgirl18 · 20-01-2018 12:43pm

HandsomeBob wrote: »

To be honest I always assumed that this competition involved a high level of collaboration with and assistance from older and experienced people in the field. I also always assumed it was only accessible to the most "fortunate" in terms of education (can't recall anyone my age in my area code entering). For these reasons, I never really gave a fcuk about the competition so I'm surprised people are only realising now that it might be a bit suspect.

Its not all like that though. Plenty of students work totally by themselves or with small help from a teacher e.g. proof reading, showing them how to represent their data etc. This is the kind of thing I did for my students this year.
There are also many DEIS schools in the competition who do get awards. Some schools are well known to aid the students massively but an awful lot of teachers will do the right thing and let the students themselves work away.

BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

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