BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

Marty Bird

I was watching this and see the winners mother is a very well known senior medical scientist/lecturer with the microbiology department of University College cork, she oversaw a very similar study back in 2007 with another post grad student a very strange coincidence, I’m not saying the lad didn’t do the work but to have a parent who is directly involved in that particular field and to have supervised a similar study 11 years ago is strange.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mrsa-faces-defeat-from-wild-flower-48105.html



MOD Note
This thread was started off with the word 'fraud' being used. As this comes with a big can o' worms with it, I think that we should just allude to something fishy going on rather than making bold claims.

I'd like for the thread to continue in this vein, no allegations as such and to have a healthy discussion on the BT Young Scientist award.

Cool.

Fann Linn

First prize €7k approx. Not bad if ye can get it.

boombang

Call me cynical, but I've often thought there's no way these kids are coming up with this stuff themselves without constable considerable adult direction that goes beyond meer support and mentoring.

Don't get me wrong, I would be tempted to do the same if I was an adult that wanted to bring an idea to prominence. However, it's unfair on the more modest, but genuine contributions from other kids.

Looks like good research by the OP.

AllForIt

I was watching the news reports over the last few days and I have to say I view the whole thing with a great deal of scepticism.

Obviously these youngsters have been given a great deal of 'guidance', and that is not to take away anything from the intelligence of the youngsters involved, nor their enthusiasm for the subject matter, but I do feel they are being used in some way to promote STEM subjects.

NIMAN

Mmm...interesting.

SteelyDanJalapeno

This needs to go to straight to the top

NIMAN

How did his Ma not think this wouldn't be noticed?

Fann Linn

TiltedBrain wrote: »

This needs to go to straight to the top

...where it will probably be just ignored.

_Dara_

Well, it’s never a surprise to me when the parents of winners are involved in the sciences themselves. Makes sense. But this is a bit suspish in that you’d wonder how much of it was original work by the kid and how much is data from his mother’s lab.

Subcomandante Marcos

There was another winner a while back (1999?) from Cork, a girl called Sarah Flannery who developed an encryption algorithm. The algorithm itself ended up having some major flaws, but what was interesting about it at the time is that her father is/was a math lecturer in CIT and had worked in this area for a while.
So was a 15 year old really reading unpublished work from obscure Irish academics and basing her work on their research or did her dad use a friends unpublished work as a springboard to get his daughter a load of media attention and scholarship offers?

corner of hells

Do you think we could do a bit if the 'ol blackmailing ' and go on the piss with the seven grand ?

Duckworth_Luas

Do potential prize winners not have to defend their research in front of the adjudicating panel?

Wombatman

Watched his bit in this clip this morning. I felt he was just reciting a spiel he had learned for such interviews and didn't have a deep understanding of the science behind the project.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/killer-superbug-project-wins-top-prize-for-budding-young-scientist-36483862.html

c.p.w.g.w

here is a functioning link

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mrsa-faces-defeat-from-wild-flower-48105.html

Marty Bird

I also found his reply to Turbidy on the Late Late as odd..

Turbidy: Well what won it for you ?

Simon: What won it for me ? Well I can’t tell myself I wouldn’t want to skew the result.

Wombatman

Marty Bird wrote: »

I was watching this and see the winners mother is a very well known senior medical scientist/lecturer with the microbiology department of University College cork, she oversaw a very similar study back in 2007 with another post grad student a very strange coincidence, I’m not saying the lad didn’t do the work but to have a parent who is directly involved in that particular field and to have supervised a similar study 11 years ago is strange?

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/health/mrsa-faces-defeat-from-wild-flower-48105.html

The winners name is Meehan, the supervisor was Dr Brigid Lucey. Am I missing some connection?

AllForIt

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Do potential prize winners not have to defend their research in front of the adjudicating panel?

No. None of what they claim is in any way verified by the adjudicating panel. Which kinda makes of mockery of the idea that their is a 'winner'.

silverharp

does he have a different surname to his mother? I presume Dr Brigid Lucey is the mother?

Marty Bird

Wombatman wrote: »

The winners name is Meehan, the supervisor was Dr Brigid Lucey. Am I missing some connection?

That’s his mother.

Subcomandante Marcos

silverharp wrote: »

does he have a different surname to his mother? I presume Dr Brigid Lucey is the mother?

Fairly common for women in academia to keep their maiden name, especially if they're publishing before they marry.

NinetyTwoTeam

Wow that's a disgrace, total cheats IMO.

diomed

Next year's winning project
The connection between winners of Young Scientist and their parent's work.

Junkyard Tom

Well done Dad! Was how one of my homework offerings was marked when I was a bout 6/7 years old.

_Dara_

There’s a Cork Echo article in the google results that mentions his parents in the google-visible bit (mother is called Brigid apparently) but click on it and it appears to have been removed.

Marty Bird

From the IT..

The fourth year student has dedicated his work to his grandfather, Eddie Lucey, a well-known herbalist and science teacher in Bandon. Now 82, he helped people with medical conditions using herbs grown in his back garden; a tradition going back generations in his family.

Not one mention of the mother working in that field whatsoever..

Marty Bird

_Dara_ wrote: »

There’s a Cork Echo article in the google results that mentions his parents in the google-visible bit (mother is called Brigid apparently) but click on it and it appears to have been removed.

I looked at that earlier it showed a picture with him and his parents gone now.

Noveight

diomed wrote: »

Next year's winning project
The connection between winners of Young Scientist and their parent's work.

My God that'd be good.

_Dara_

Marty Bird wrote: »

I looked at that earlier it showed a picture with him and his parents gone now.

Hmmm, that’s strange. Why remove that if there’s nothing to hide? Normal for pictures of the winners and their parents to appear in the media.

Wombatman

_Dara_ wrote: »

Hmmm, that’s strange. Why remove that if there’s nothing to hide? Normal for pictures of the winners and their parents to appear in the media.

Better screenshot that article from 10 years ago so

c.p.w.g.w

its all a cover up...maybe we should be posting over in the conspiracy theory thread:D:D:D:D:D:D

humpsterfire

I mean, put a seconds thought into it and its obviously sham-tastic.

But if its true the mother was working on basically the same project.....its a new level of eye-rolling.

Its basically a publicity stunt for Ireland, "look at how clever our children are!", the powers that be couldnt give a fig if the thing is genuine or not!

Then they'll send his ma, sorry, I mean him over to the European version of the event, where his ma will compete with a german da, an English school, an Italian ambassador etc

Its national dick-waving, but using adolescent dicks as a front, with big, secretive, hefty langers swinging pendulously in the background shadows.

NIMAN

Its a disgrace Joe.

_Dara_

Wombatman wrote: »

Better screenshot that article from 10 years ago so

Very easy to search for her published articles!

If that article disappeared, I reckon there’s something afoot. All it would take would be someone saying “Hey, that’s my research!” or a runner-up lodging a complaint for it to be investigated.

Arcade_Tryer

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

_Dara_

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

Yeah, like I said, it’s never a surprise if the parents are scientifically-inclined but there’s a line that can be crossed in how much help can be given, I’m sure.

Junkyard Tom

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Given parents are the most significant explanation for the success of their children's education, it shouldn't be any surprise to see evidence of this at events such as the BT Young Scientist. Not saying there is any evidence in this specific situation per se.

Well done Arcade_Tryer's Dad! Great post!

Noveight

humpsterfire wrote: »

adolescent dicks

humpsterfire wrote: »

big, secretive, hefty langers swinging pendulously

humpsterfire

Noveight wrote: »

You never wondered why those curtains on stage are always moving around?

Why the students look nervously behind them so much while they accept the awards?

Arcade_Tryer

_Dara_ wrote: »

Yeah, like I said, it’s never a surprise if the parents are scientifically-inclined but there’s a line that can be crossed in how much help can be given, I’m sure.

It's only a Young Scientist competition. Who really cares? The serious issue is the significant variation in children's' success in the standardized education system due to their parent's situation in society.

_Dara_

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's only a Young Scientist competition. Who really cares? The serious issue is the significant variation in children's' success in the standardized education system due to their parent's situation in society.

There’s quite significant prize money, especially for a teenager.

sullivlo

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

job seeker

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

Grand! He cheated!

Let's form an angry mob!

_Dara_

sullivlo wrote: »

As somebody who has:
- won the young scientist myself
- supervised/mentored a project that won two significant prizes
- worked at the young scientist
- provided assistance with reagents/equipment to projects over the years
- judged at science competitions

... I have some strong opinions on this topic, and am in a good position to comment.

Is it suspicious? Absolutely.

Is there a chance that parents/teachers had a say in the project? Yes.

Are there students out there that are just amazing and use their own initiative and contacts to get help? 100%.

When my students won, I was gobsmacked at the list of people that they had contacted for help. Not for the people to do the experiment, but for help with a technique or a technical aspect of the project. In the same way that when I was in academia I would help students who contacted me.

At the event, students are subjected to judging by experts in a field, and they are grilled to ensure that they did the work themselves, and it is quickly very obvious as to what they actually did and what anybody else did.

I spoke this years winner during the week. I did a postdoc position on a similar project so I had a genuine interest in it, and a good knowledge of the techniques he used. The kid is great, and he 100% did the work himself. Did his family help? Absolutely. His family inspired him through discussion, and would have aided him in his choice of interest by discussing their own work at home over the years.

There were several other incredible projects on display this year. Projects that, on paper, were better than the winning projects. But within two minutes it was obvious to anyone with any significant science background that somebody else did the work.

Sometimes people just have a passion for it, and they know what to do and they do it. When I won, it was in a field unfamiliar to my teacher, so it was my own/my groups work. When my students won, I felt like a fraud when people congratulated me, because my function was to sign the forms and proof read their work as I hadn’t a clue what they were up to. When students would cold-call me and ask if they could use something in the lab, the answer was always yes, and I would help them in any way that I could.

In conclusion/TL/DR: it is suspicious, but from experience sometimes kids are just *that* good at science.

Thanks for the info!

sullivlo

job seeker wrote: »

Grand! He cheated!

Let's form an angry mob!

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

Turtwig

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

I think that was Saddam er sarcasm?

suicide_circus

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

You're an insider - not objective.

sullivlo

suicide_circus wrote: »

You're an insider - not objective.

I think that I am probably more objective because I actually know the mechanics of the process. I will be the first to admit that there are projects that are not done by the students, but I also said that these projects don’t win because they’re picked up on by the judges.

job seeker

sullivlo wrote: »

I don’t know how you got that from my post.

:pac:

Ah, I was messing!

I read your post! It was interesting to get someones view, who was that much involved in the BT competition.

I am wondering though, is there any rules which exist, that outline how much help may be provided to the students?

suicide_circus

sullivlo wrote: »

I think that I am probably more objective because I actually know the mechanics of the process. I will be the first to admit that there are projects that are not done by the students, but I also said that these projects don’t win because they’re picked up on by the judges.

If you say so. You taught a former winner so you do have skin in the game, so to speak.

sullivlo

job seeker wrote: »

:pac:

Ah, I was messing!

I read your post! It was interesting to get someones view, who was that much involved in the BT competition.

I am wondering though, is there any rules which exist, that outline how much help may be provided to the students?

Yeah there are guidelines that list what help they can get from an external source, and everything has to be fully documented. Any time I helped a group out I had to write a letter outlining who in the project did what, and exactly what role I played in it. Like did I supply reagents, did I teach them the method, and what level of engagement I had with them in analysis of results etc. Again, from the process it’s fairly obvious to the judges what was done by the students.

sullivlo

suicide_circus wrote: »

If you say so. You taught a former winner so you do have skin in the game, so to speak.

Yes, I taught a former winner.

My field of expertise is biology. My students project was in the chemical/physical/maths section and involves a lot of computing and numbers. I struggle with doing html “coding” when trying to make something bold or italics on boards. I was no help to the students, beyond proof reading and writing the teacher evaluation of them.

I was also a former winner, and therefore I know the process from both sides, and we certainly didn’t have others to do the experiment for us. And we had lots of judges call to us to ask us a variety of questions to try catch us out.