BT Young Scientist - is there something fishy? MOD Note in OP

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

lol

It's very hard to converse with someone who's accused me (and others) of bias and prejudice but cant explain themselves. Disagreeing with me is fine but then flinging out words like "Bias, Prejudice, Straw-man's argument, Factitious" doesn't lend at all to continued conversation with you on the topic.

kaymin

Kurtosis wrote: »

How many scientific breakthroughs have come about from BTYSE entrants with access to third-level research facilities?

I don't know - does it matter seeing as we seem to agree that achieving scientific breakthroughs is not the objective of the competition?

Kurtosis wrote: »

If the BTYSE is supposed to be about work experience for students, that's well and good. However I don't think that's what it should be about. They should be developing an understanding of the scientific method (i.e. identifying a knowledge gap, formulating a research question, proper design of an experiment, selection of appropriate controls). Jumping in at the deep end to be shown around a lab, see some new-fangled equipment being operated, and being handed some difficult to interpret results doesn't do that.

That's the thing, some of the projects entail using equipment not available at schools - it is not about using complex equipment for the sake of it. When they go to the lab in colleges they do most of the work - prepare the samples etc and then interpret the results, most likely with the help of the lab technician. I know this because I've been told it by someone that has facilitated YS competitors in the past.

Kurtosis wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, and I could have chosen any piece of equipment not available in schools. That's my point, if access to third-level facilities is supposedly "open to all participants", what happens if all participants want to access these facilities?

Is it currently an issue because third-level facilities are already available to competitors upon request?

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

It's very hard to converse with someone who's accused me (and others) of bias and prejudice but cant explain themselves. Disagreeing with me is fine but then flinging out words like "Bias, Prejudice, Straw-man's argument, Factitious" doesn't lend at all to continued conversation with you on the topic.

Short of drawing you a picture I don't know what else i can do for you.

DaisyFay

kaymin wrote: »

Is it currently an issue because third-level facilities are already available to competitors upon request?

Well yes, because they aren't. Many researchers don't even have time to respond to such requests, much less find the time where the equipment is available with a fully trained scientist to demonstrate/supervise and take responsibility for the work/the 2nd level students while they're in the lab. It can be very difficult to organise this without contacts, and furthermore, even getting to the university/college could be impossible for many students, particularly considering the need for multiple site visits and work outside of school time.

kaymin

DaisyFay wrote: »

Well yes, because they aren't. Many researchers don't even have time to respond to such requests, much less find the time where the equipment is available with a fully trained scientist to demonstrate/supervise and take responsibility for the work/the 2nd level students while they're in the lab. It can be very difficult to organise this without contacts, and furthermore, even getting to the university/college could be impossible for many students, particularly considering the need for multiple site visits and work outside of school time.

Are you speaking from experience? If so, how many universities did you make requests of? Did no-one respond?

Can students not use buses? Aren't competitors generally transition year students i.e. they don't have regular school hours?

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

Are you speaking from experience? If so, how many universities did you make requests of? Did no-one respond?

Can students not use buses? Aren't competitors generally transition year students i.e. they don't have regular school hours?

Let them eat cake.

DaisyFay

Yes, from experience of this sector. Many scientists are very passionate about outreach and encouraging 2nd level students to take an interest in the area, but would be unable to facilitate use of very expensive and specialised equipment by an unqualified person. A lot of planning and organisation would be required to ensure that the equipment is available, to provide lab induction/safety information, health and safety training etc, before someone qualified could demonstrate the technique, explain how equipment works, how data is generated and how to interpret it. Each experiment would have to be repeated so this is not a trivial process or commitment.

In general, we're not even talking about equipment that's freely available for qualified individuals to start tooling around with, we're talking about technology that each college might have 1-2 of, where it needs to be booked in advance for small time slots and is therefore unsuitable for this kind of project.

kaymin

DaisyFay wrote: »

Yes, from experience of this sector. Many scientists are very passionate about outreach and encouraging 2nd level students to take an interest in the area, but would be unable to facilitate use of very expensive and specialised equipment by an unqualified person. A lot of planning and organisation would be required to ensure that the equipment is available, to provide lab induction/safety information, health and safety training etc, before someone qualified could demonstrate the technique, explain how equipment works, how data is generated and how to interpret it. Each experiment would have to be repeated so this is not a trivial process or commitment.

In general, we're not even talking about equipment that's freely available for qualified individuals to start tooling around with, we're talking about technology that each college might have 1-2 of, where it needs to be booked in advance for small time slots and is therefore unsuitable for this kind of project.

What do you mean by 'experience from this sector'? - have you been denied requests yourself or have you yourself denied or ignored requests from YS competitors?

I understand your comment about expensive equipment but that has not stopped YS being assisted by third-level institutions and I know this for a fact from what I have been told by a lecturer and her team of PHD students that have assisted competitors (which originated from a request made by said competitors).

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

kaymin

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fred - if you're referring to me, you've just made my day! Never saw myself as a PR person.

Kurtosis

kaymin wrote: »

I don't know - does it matter seeing as we seem to agree that achieving scientific breakthroughs is not the objective of the competition?

Well if breakthroughs aren't happening, restricting access to facilities isn't going to stymie breakthroughs.

That's the thing, some of the projects entail using equipment not available at schools - it is not about using complex equipment for the sake of it. When they go to the lab in colleges they do most of the work - prepare the samples etc and then interpret the results, most likely with the help of the lab technician. I know this because I've been told it by someone that has facilitated YS competitors in the past.

This is where I have my doubts. I suspect in a lot of cases a teacher or some other person assisting the students suggests the use of some advanced technique, and a project and research question is retrofitted around this. This happens enough at third-level, where the availability of data or equipment is the starting point and a research question is generated to put this to use. That is anathema to the scientific method, it should be question-->methods not methods-->question. I think how these facilities are probably being used is encouraging the latter.

Is it currently an issue because third-level facilities are already available to competitors upon request?

I doubt a lot of participants are aware that they can use outside facilities, and even if they are, a lot of them would not know how to make a request to the relevant organisations. This isn't like an resource pack or software platform like SurveyMonkey where it can be availed of by an infinite number of participants. What happens if they demand for outside facilities does outstrip supply? How to university or companies decide which requests to grant?

Roger Hassenforder

kaymin wrote: »

You need to broaden your mind. The students prepare the samples for testing, learn from the lab technicians...

This gets better.

So acknowledging he didnt do the analysis himself, youre ok with him preparing samples...
from/of MRSA cultures. Despite what we're telling you...

Things its obvious you havent a clue of:
Microbiology
Epidemiology
Risk assessment
Bias
Analytical Chemistry

5rtytry56

cookie1977 wrote: »

It's very hard to converse with someone who's accused me (and others) of bias and prejudice but cant explain themselves. Disagreeing with me is fine but then flinging out words like "Bias, Prejudice, Straw-man's argument, Factitious" doesn't lend at all to continued conversation with you on the topic.

kaymin warrior sounds quite fractious alright.:)

weldoninhio

kaymin wrote: »

Are you speaking from experience? If so, how many universities did you make requests of? Did no-one respond?

Can students not use buses? Aren't competitors generally transition year students i.e. they don't have regular school hours?

I don't think transition year means what you think it means.

Roger Hassenforder

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don't think transition year means what you think it means.

Feck it, im only after finishing my list...

Martina1991

kaymin wrote:

Can students not use buses? Aren't competitors generally transition year students i.e. they don't have regular school hours?

The competition is for second level students aged 12 to 19. A student in any year can apply. I doubt any junior cert or leaving cert would like to play catch up from missing school in an exam year.

Multiple trips to a university or lab would require parents permission as well as being accompanied by a teacher.
A teacher who likely has other classes to teach.

granturismo

Martina1991 wrote: »

Multiple trips to a university or lab would require parents permission as well as being accompanied by a teacher.
A teacher who likely has other classes to teach.

In addition, most third level institutions are moving away from taking individual transition years and moving to week long programmes - look at TCDs website for details of their week programmes as an example. These have a set syllabus and do not cater for individuals trying to carry out research for the likes of BT Young Sceintist. A lot of civil and public service bodies have moved from individual intake to a single group or limited to one week or maybe a few groups over a year (Gardai, Defence Forces, various civil service depts).

Child protection policies play a part in addition to staff not having the inconveience of being lumbered with a colleagues nephew/niece/neighbour and having to find something for them to do, in addition to being limited in not letting them handle hazardous chemicals, expensive equipment or engineering equipment.

These child protection policies mean staff and university students are not supposed to be alone with a minor and if they deal with transition years they are supposed to have garda vetting. Having groups removes one to one contact. Having a school teacher present removes some of the responsibility from the host employer but as you point out what school can send a teacher off site for a day.

Individual transition years having access to specialised work places is less likely to be the norm. If anyone thinks this in nannyism - when I worked in a lab 30 years ago, TYs labelled glassware, put plastic tips in boxes and maybe made up solutions of something like salt.

kaymin

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don't think transition year means what you think it means.

Are you saying the description from Wikipedia below is not fair reflection of TY?:

For the most part the year is designed around giving students life skills, incorporating a work experience program. There are also many trips available to the students, foreign and local, aimed at giving a more hands on aspect to learning. There is a compulsory 'retreat' for team building and bonding within the TY program. It aims to help students mature and connect with their peers.[1] Transition Year was created as a result of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which called for a six-year cycle of post-primary education.[2] The mission statement of the Transition Year is: "To promote the personal, social, educational and vocational development of pupils and to prepare them for their role as autonomous, participate and responsible members of society."[3]

kaymin

Martina1991 wrote: »

The competition is for second level students aged 12 to 19. A student in any year can apply. I doubt any junior cert or leaving cert would like to play catch up from missing school in an exam year.

Fine but is it not generally TY students that enter?

Martina1991 wrote: »

Multiple trips to a university or lab would require parents permission as well as being accompanied by a teacher.
A teacher who likely has other classes to teach.

I'm not saying your wrong but how can the TY mission 'To promote the personal, social, educational and vocational development of pupils and to prepare them for their role as autonomous..... members of society' be accomplished if teachers have to accompany them everywhere?

kaymin

Kurtosis wrote: »

Well if breakthroughs aren't happening, restricting access to facilities isn't going to stymie breakthroughs.

My comment was about potential (i.e. future) breakthroughs but no matter.

Kurtosis wrote: »

This is where I have my doubts. I suspect in a lot of cases a teacher or some other person assisting the students suggests the use of some advanced technique, and a project and research question is retrofitted around this. This happens enough at third-level, where the availability of data or equipment is the starting point and a research question is generated to put this to use. That is anathema to the scientific method, it should be question-->methods not methods-->question. I think how these facilities are probably being used is encouraging the latter.

Possibly, though secondary school students and teachers will be a lot less aware of equipment available at third-level than third-level students and so less susceptible to this approach.

Kurtosis wrote: »

I doubt a lot of participants are aware that they can use outside facilities, and even if they are, a lot of them would not know how to make a request to the relevant organisations. This isn't like an resource pack or software platform like SurveyMonkey where it can be availed of by an infinite number of participants. What happens if they demand for outside facilities does outstrip supply? How to university or companies decide which requests to grant?

Well, its in the YS rule book that they can do so - but yeah if they haven't read the rulebook then they won't necessarily be aware.

Are we at the stage that demand for outside facilities does outstrip supply? - why not worry about that if it happens.

To get back to the original point, use of third level facilities is allowed per the rules, the winner availed of such facilities, acknowledged use of them in his project poster and therefore did not break any rules.

weldoninhio

kaymin wrote: »

Are you saying the description from Wikipedia below is not fair reflection of TY?:

For the most part the year is designed around giving students life skills, incorporating a work experience program. There are also many trips available to the students, foreign and local, aimed at giving a more hands on aspect to learning. There is a compulsory 'retreat' for team building and bonding within the TY program. It aims to help students mature and connect with their peers.[1] Transition Year was created as a result of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which called for a six-year cycle of post-primary education.[2] The mission statement of the Transition Year is: "To promote the personal, social, educational and vocational development of pupils and to prepare them for their role as autonomous, participate and responsible members of society."[3]

Could you show me the part that means "they don't have regular school hours?" as you originally stated

Martina1991

kaymin wrote:

I'm not saying your wrong but how can the TY mission 'To promote the personal, social, educational and vocational development of pupils and to prepare them for their role as autonomous..... members of society' be accomplished if teachers have to accompany them everywhere?

It's not about baby sitting teenagers. It's a health and safety issue. If you let teenagers off on a bus to do a project who's to say they won't skive off. If anything happened to them the school would be liable.

Your quoting of the TY mission statement is a bit out of touch with reality.

I had a great TY in an all girls school filled with activities. Across town the lads school did fvck all except play sports and doss around. Not exactly preparing to be autonomous members of society.

kaymin

weldoninhio wrote: »

Could you show me the part that means "they don't have regular school hours?" as you originally stated

You are cretinous. If they are doing work experience, if they are going on one of the many trips organised for them, if they are going on retreats clearly they cannot be keeping regular school hours.

cookie1977

Interesting article from the IT in 2015:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-secret-to-a-successful-young-scientist-pitch-1.2355686

Advice for entrants.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

You are cretinous.

Put the thesaurus down!

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

Interesting article from the IT in 2015:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-secret-to-a-successful-young-scientist-pitch-1.2355686

Advice for entrants.

And unsurprisingly:

3 Access to equipment
You need to have access to any equipment needed for your research. If it’s not available in school, maybe an industry lab or university can run tests for you. But you need to make it clear to the judges that this is possible. It’s great to have an innovative idea, but you also need to be able to carry it out.

cookie1977

kaymin wrote: »

And unsurprisingly:

3 Access to equipment
You need to have access to any equipment needed for your research. If it’s not available in school, maybe an industry lab or university can run tests for you. But you need to make it clear to the judges that this is possible. It’s great to have an innovative idea, but you also need to be able to carry it out.

God now, dont selectively quote:

2 A feasible project
Your idea must be doable...Your research question needs to be answerable by the research methods available to you.

weldoninhio

kaymin wrote: »

You are cretinous. If they are doing work experience, if they are going on one of the many trips organised for them, if they are going on retreats clearly they cannot be keeping regular school hours.

I must have imagined going to school the same hours as the rest of the pupils in the school for the vast majority of transition year.

Have you done TY? Or is this another subject that you haven't any experience of, but have a wealth of knowledge of??

kaymin

cookie1977 wrote: »

God now, dont selectively quote:

2 A feasible project
Your idea must be doable...Your research question needs to be answerable by the research methods available to you.

What a revelation. Is this another strawman argument?

kaymin

weldoninhio wrote: »

I must have imagined going to school the same hours as the rest of the pupils in the school for the vast majority of transition year.

Have you done TY? Or is this another subject that you haven't any experience of, but have a wealth of knowledge of??

So you need to have done TY in order to know something about it?:rolleyes: