Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Larbre34

I reported this fool a few days ago and would be interested to know why it wasn't acted on.

Dohvolle

Likewise. Whatever about the trolling, abusing those who post here because they are interested in the topic is below the belt even for Boardsie.

ancientmariner

Don't worry about lawn pissers, they are part of life. More interestingly we need to see ourselves as part of European Defence and security. In this regard we need to emulate countries of equal populations and sense of Duty. Norway, and Denmark have 5.5 million population and both have AF around 3,500 personnel and both have 100 + fighter aircraft with a support of Rotary's and Transport Aircraft.

We are neutered by confusing our status as a non-belligerent as a dividend to NOT requiring an ability to deter occupation or become a satellite against our neighbours.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414182#Comment_119414182

"We need toe emulate countries of equal populations and sense of duty".

Are we keeping up with the Jones' or preparing our defence force on the basis of risk?

Norway has a fleet of submarines, Denmark has Leopard tanks. If we necessarily copy other European states on arbitrary metrics, are we really adding to "European defence and security"?

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414418#Comment_119414418

Unfortunately you cannot pick the IRISH ONLY bits from the manuals on warfare. We were always told we are not a tank country and sure we are a threat to nobody. The risk is plain with pre-emption and associated risks world wide. We are a focal plug in point for most trans-Atlantic cabling and surface shipping routes to and from Europe to the world. All East and West bound Air routes pass over our EEZ and territory.

We can of course do nothing hoping for spill over assistance due to the Brit obligation to defend the 6 Counties, and as they are in NATO everyone else might join in and we can do the ATCP bit. In any event our ROLE must be finally settled or we are running an Organisation for no purpose.

Dohvolle

Ah the "not tank country" myth. However Finland, a far more marshy nation than ours, manage somehow to operate Almost 250 Leopard MBTs, in addition to a similar quantity of CV90 and BMP2 Tracked IFVs, 400 tracked APCs, and a comparable quantity of Wheeled armoured vehicles as ourselves.

Its a similar myth to the one that says we are a poor country who can't afford modern military equipment.

We can however throw seemingly infinite amounts building a new hospital in a site nobody wanted, or spend half a billion per KM for a Light rail vanity project connecting Ireland's most connected Airport to its nearest city, and no other rail line.

We hear this myth almost as often to the notion that should we be invaded we would just pick up granda's shotgun and take to the hedgerows, as they did 100 years ago (because a modern invading army will be equipped the same was as the British were 100 years ago, with the same post WW1 battle fatigue). The same fools will no doubt point to Vietnam and Afghanistan as examples of where a guerrilla war defeated a major super power, but will neglect to mention the Human cost to the people where the war was fought, or the enormous financial and material backing from outside required to maintain it.

For years someone in government has made a multitude of excuses for not properly equipping the defence forces, even when funding was available. In any other state, constraining the activities of the military deliberately in this manner would be considered treason.

Who decided we would only get 3 Corvettes when hundreds were available? Who decided to replace a 1st Gen jet trainer with another 1st Gen jet trainer, when a multitude of cold-war era light fighter jets were available at a similar price from the USA? Why didn't we get the single non-missile frigate the RN wanted to gift us? Why did we give back the Leased Puma? Who binned plans for the 2nd Eithne class, after the original builder closed down?

People knowingly made all these decisions to keep the Defence Forces toothless.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119414659#Comment_119414659

Preparing a defence based on what other countries do is the height of stupidity.

Are the Finn's procuring an MRV for humanitarian work? Why does New Zealand have a smaller Army than ours?

I fully agree that the countries stance and therefore the DFs role must be settled, and it should be on preparing a defence of Ireland and not just a 'do what Denmark does, but in a token way' defence force.

Larbre34

Of course you can for Christ's sake!

Research in any field builds on what has gone before and that includes looking at best practices, lessons and outcomes for foreign militaries in Countries of a similar size and profile.

Why do you think the invitations from the Government to form the Commission on Defence *specifically* sought the participation of former senior flag officers in other small and / or neutral States in Europe?

We were lucky to have the former Chief of Defence of Norway and former Chief of Operations of Finnish Defence who also served as Director of the EU Military Staff and they were there for a very good reason.

roadmaster

Interesting as part of the Polish FA50 deal that the polish air force intend to offer training on the FA50 to any future european user under a deal with KAI

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415939#Comment_119415939

Just the one point. New Zealand realising that it is an island decided to have all three services suitably sized-Army, navy and Air force while not exactly the same size are each well proportioned. The navy is around 2,200 compared to our 1000.

Finland has everything that floats under the naval umbrella so they have minelayers and survey ships in quantity to do any HADR jobs. Janes shows scores of vessels in addition to warships under naval control in Finland.

jonnybigwallet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119416654#Comment_119416654

That's very interesting and something our pilots could benefit from if the AIR FORCE decide to go the FA 50 route.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412186#Comment_119412186

Probably because you are going around calling people "fools" and reporting them and expecting them to be banned because you disagree with their opinion, unfortunately for you this isnt North Korea and the sense of entitlement you carry around doesn't give you rights on here the mods wont be acting on behalf of your tantrums.

You and a few other posters on here strike me as airsofter's with 0 real life combat experience playing soldier talking about defense and we need to defend the Island... mother of god F-16s... talk about a absolute notions! just stop!

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417828#Comment_119417828

The Finn's aren't procuring an MRV though... They don't have MPA, so surely we're putting a foot wrong there? And they have the largest artillery capacity in Europe, do we also replicate that, just because?

Fully agree that we should take a leaf from their book - a navy to track and attack submarines, MCM.

But we don't have the time or resources to do anything other than lifting the "Irish only bits from the manuals of warfare".

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417828#Comment_119417828

You have to take into account where both those nations are they have a very REAL prospect of a devastating conflict and they are the first stop for any conflict that kicks off between other power's too so it make's sense for Finland to have all that. New Zealand tends to be tethered along with NATO so they need to have a strong military.. You compare that to Ireland then we have basically 0% chance of a direct conflict with another nation it doesn't make sense to have that when it realistically isn't needed.

Put simply there isnt a nation on the planet outside of the US or UK that could do a thing to Ireland, and given our relationship with both we have 0 realistic threats that would require us to massively upscale our DF's in short our small DF is more than enough for what we do and realistically require.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418154#Comment_119418154

You are saying that we do not face a threat from Russia and this is total nonsense.

The Russian northern fleet exists (outside of their nuclear deterrent) to get out into the Atlantic to destroy shipping.

There are at least two Russian attack submarines operating in the Atlantic since last week.

If we are to do nothing, as you propose, there is nothing that we can do to stop one Russian submarine from rendering shipping in and around Ireland dangerous, such that they do not leave port at all. The Russians do not need to target Irish bound/originating shipping directly, considering our proximity to France and Britain, to affect us.

That was the case in the first and second wars, what was planned for in the cold war, and is still planned for by Western Europe today. The problem being that western Europe does not have the escorts to be at home and overseas fighting at once.

We are highly vulnerable and you are wrong, it's that simple.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418249#Comment_119418249

We face absolutely no threat what so ever from Russia from a military perspective, at least nothing we can prevent anyway. You are trying to take away a Russian first strike ability which is impossible they will always retain that, the trouble lie's in why they would strike in the first place what they would do after that.

Russia attack/invades Ireland = War with the US and UK especially the UK for alot of what i think are fairly obvious reasons.. The likelihood of such attacks occurring are so low its ridiculous they stand to gain nothing and would lose badly. From a strategic perspective these are just very stupid things to do but ill play into it.

Lets take your scenario of what you want and make them a reality, Russia is impeding Irish shipping with subs and Ireland has invested massively in military defence and we can track and kill said sub, we do so we attack and sink a top tier Russian sub the Knyaz Oleg has been sent to davy jones locker by the Irish Defence Forces.

Ireland is now at war with Russia claiming to have defended it's shipping from Russian subs.

What do we do now??? see the problem?

ancientmariner

There is no sense in presuming that Ireland, with it's lack of resources and zero exclusive military budget would ever conceive of carrying out a "First strike" on any nation. If Ireland is perceived by any power group to be a weak link in Area Defence, in time of imminent conflict. they may feel justified in plugging the gap by occupation.

The PDF is tasked with defence and security among other ATCP duties and it includes the ability to conduct warfare on land, sea , and air by inference. If the Atlantic is to be a battle ground as in WW1 and WW11 then Ireland is on the front edge of that Battle Area, the FEBA of Europe, and MUST be part of it's Defence, implied by our membership of the EU.

tippilot

Our geographical location makes the threat of all-out invasion extremely low. There are very few unfriendly countries that can project that sort of manpower over the long distances required. Russia certainly can't, despite Putin's illusions. However, you miss the point.

There are few if any smaller countries that could prevent a larger determined superpower from successfully completing a brute force land grab. But that is not the point of a well equipped defence force. It's purpose is to deter any invasion attempt by making it far too costly to the aggressor in terms of lost manpower, equipment and time. That is why smaller countries, despite having no actual chance of preventing a successful large scale attack present a credible defence posture. And so should we.

You also need to move your thinking away from large scale attacks to what the actual threat is. Disruptive nuisance force projection by an obvious belligerent, designed to undermine Ireland's stability economically as a centre for current and future multinational FDI, a hub for major global technology and online industries. Something like that is not theoretical, it is actual. It is currently happening. Ships sent into areas of undersea cables, combat aircraft(yes combat aircraft) making a nuisance of themselves in Irish controlled airspace. And that is something we both need to be able to police and deter. Our economic future depends on it.

So while you moan about the cost of improving the defence forces, potential future FDI could be running to more secure locations and the money you would save by not investing ina minimum level of defence will look like pennies against the money lost to elsewhere. Defence, like Health or Social Welfare and Education is fundamental to an investable country. It's the cost of doing business.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418570#Comment_119418570

What would likely happen is a joint effort of the US and UK to keep Ireland defended as it is in there interest to not have an enemy sitting in Ireland using it as as a staging area for attacks... that is of course if the Atlantic ever became a battleground (which will never happen because no one can even hold a candle to the US Navy) and the term "joint effort" is being polite to Ireland because if push came to shove and they needed Ireland to be defended they would be doing so with or without our permission.

In this highly unlikely hypothetical scenario that will never ever happen.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418590#Comment_119418590

Your second paragraph is irrelevant to us due to your first paragraph there is no immediate need for use to have an ultra deterrent DF other countries yes but Ireland no, especially when you factor in we can just work with other nation's and through agreements and mutual benefit gain the same protection but at a fraction of the cost.

As for the disruptive nuisance tactics that's just something we'll have to work around unless of course you are suggesting we use military force to stop it?

There are higher priorities on the totem pole for use of funds to encourage investment than defense..

niallers1

The topic is fighter jets for the Air Corps.. Keep to the topic please.

thomil

Bit of a Public Service Announcement here:

When users have their profile set to "private", like our old friend "TheTruth89", you can't just go into their profile and add them to your ignore list that way.

Instead, if you're on desktop, click on your avatar/icon in the upper right corner, and click on your user name.

Once there, click on the drop down menu on the right and select "Ignore List". Once you're there, just enter the username you want to ignore and you're done. This thread has gotten a whole lot easier to read for me 😉

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419618#Comment_119419618

Why don't you instead set up a thread called "The Echo Chamber" and state that you only want to hear opinions exactly the same as yours because you get offended when someone disagrees with your delusions.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419618#Comment_119419618

Entire pages are blank...

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119419744#Comment_119419744

They're showing exactly the same content as before, just with a lot fewer letters... 😇

TheTruth89

When wannabe Soldiers / Defense experts get confronted with reality denial is the usual outcome! Back to the auld Airsoft and chatting about the "black Op" projects that yer in the "know" on .

These 2 ^^ 🤣🤣🤣

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412186#Comment_119412186

Same.

source

Nobody here is in denial of reality but you, a commission of experts in the field of defence have examined out defence and found that it is severely lacking.

They have prepared a document outlining their findings and they have suggested that we're severely underfunding defence (shocker), and that should be remedied.

Everyone in this thread is simply sick of random folk finding the forum and deciding they know better than the people here with military experience and the experts who sat on the commission.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420431#Comment_119420431

What are the tax payers going to get for the 400 million extra we spend on the DF's what benefit to us is it? What ll we have that we don't already... The people with military experience here are bitter cause they ve no answers to those questions and want to be like the big boys the US and UK but its the one thing to be dreaming with 1.1 billion funding as 1.5!

I'd rather see that 400 million spent on housing rather than lads out preparing for the Russian "invasion" or what ever else it is were so desperately in need of defending from.. Clowns on here dreaming of F-16's and our hospitals up in a heap! We're more likely to be killed from the waiting times in hospital than the Russians or who ever else it is that is supposedly out to get us!

There is no justification for the money they are being allocated and it could be far better spent else where.

Dohvolle

Why