Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

TheTruth89

The CoDF considers that Ireland’s global geostrategic environment will be ‘characterised by intensified great power competition.’[iii] While the threat of a direct combined arms attack against the Irish State is quite low, what has become more apparent is that there is now a ‘growing risk that Ireland’s land, air, maritime and cyber domains’ could become ‘vectors of attack’ towards Ireland’s neighbours and European partners.[iv] This has already occurred during the planned 3 February 2022 Russian naval exercise, which highlighted how Ireland was incapable of ensuring the safety of the undersea communications cables which connect Europe with North America. Ireland was singled-out and exposed as a weak-link in Western security architecture. 

And an extra 400 million will help us stop the Russian fleet in future... they'd want to get these lads out to the Ukraine rapid.. that whole commission is a joke 🤣

source

€400m is a couple of days in health and social welfare, the 2 most mismanaged departments, who also have the largest budgets in the state. (over €30b each)

Defence is a tiny fraction of what is already being spent on health and they still cannot run the health service correctly. More money won't fix that problem, especially not an extra 1.3% of their overall budget

That the DF does what it currently does with what it currently gets is a testament to how an organisation can be run. An extra €400m annually will help to completely overhaul the DF, it would be squandered and wasted in the department of health.

But again you have nothing more than the usual crap that people come on here with, whining about the health service and how defence isn't needed. More of the same broken record, I know better than the experts BS that is regularly used to try to put down any attempt to improve the lot of our DF and to improve the defence of the state.

We're all sick of the same old tired arguments, and we're tired of continually having to defend against them. None of us want to engage with your points, not because you've stumbled across some truth that everyone else has overlooked, but because we've all seen them hundreds of times and put them down previously.

I'll stick with the opinion of a panel of defence experts over yours thanks.

Aodhan5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420625#Comment_119420625

You are in a room with 5 other people. They are armed with knives and want to kill you.

You have a gun with 2 bullets.

Obviously you can't kill them all to protect yourself however, do you think those 5 lads are going to run at you if they know at least 2 of them will end up severely injured or dead?

No it's simply not worth it. This is what people mean by having an adequate military as a deterrent.

Building on this, if every developed country took our attitude for letting others protect us, you'd quickly find that a small amount of large countries with large militaries would have the run of the place. Do you want China in charge of everything? The US?

Hence projects such as NATO exist, allowing a number of smaller countries to band together to repel larger adversaries.

Therefore it would make sense for a country such as us to have an adequate defence force so we can do our bit seeing as we do have the pockets for it. Do you think it's fair to have Ukraine footing the bill for the defence of Western Europe?

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420656#Comment_119420656

The panel of experts in total agreement with my own view and ill quote it. "While there are currently no serious threats to Irish territorial sovereignty." Your bashing the healthcare service? that does far more for this country than the DF's will ever do and you want to talk about being underfunded hospital's country wide are regularly struggling and crowded, they need the funding for actual real threats to our society because they actually are on the frontline and actually make a difference.

They didn't even give ye LoA3 you cant rename the rangers now and no new helicopter for the boys :( they talk about being able to stop the Russia fleet from threatening us please do explain to me how you stop the Russian fleet on a 1.5 billion budget, Rommel wouldn't be a patch on them lads that were part of the commission. An exercise in delusion and paranoia is all that commission was.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420675#Comment_119420675

A more realistic scenario would be standing in a room with 5 people with knives trying to kill you, but either side of you there are two Terminators one called US and the other UK both of whom your best buds with and have defense agreements with.

Wouldn't end too well for the lads with the knives.

If we were serious about defence in this country we would be in NATO not bolloxing with nonsense commissions.

Last i checked Ukraine was being wholesale backed by the western world.

Dohvolle

OH FOR **** SAKE WILL SOMEONE DISABLE THIS IDIOT!

Do I have to post porn here before a fuking moderator notices?

Thus useless sack of **** spamming this site all fuking day and night.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420726#Comment_119420726

Calm down a small bit its a post on boards that you don't agree with lad take a breath! There's no need for name calling either, disagree all you like i amnt calling you names show abit of respect.

ancientmariner

Versions of the truth with strident assertions with no positive alternatives is tiresome . Our basic requirements are to re-arm the Air Corps and the Navy and add increased Transport logistic capability to each. Air Corps up to 36 Combat aircraft, 3 modern transports fitted also for surveillance and 360deg Radars, range of rotary air craft some on ground attack role. The Navy needs to re-enter MCM, ASW, and AD roles and adapt to use weaponised drones. Training for Naval aviation will be also needed for cross deck visits to MRV or ships with flight decks. As well as Cables in Irish EEZ we also have Three or more interconnectors plus a possible 100 moored wind turbines off the South coast and we already have some dozens or more fixed wind turbines on our East coast.

Our proposed budget of 1.4 billion includes provision for veterans and minders. The actual available defence spend on Military equipment is fractional and unspent money is lost and not accumulative. Russia is in our midst with accommodation blocks on their ambassadorial grounds. it is SOP for them to be busy and our problem is to be aware it is not to our advantage.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420813#Comment_119420813

If the goal of the DF was to be at a state where they could militarily deter a Russian fleet, they would need significantly more than 1.5 billion in spending what they are trying to achieve wont be done with that level of spending at least not to any meaningful scale, they would be doing well to achieve that with that level of spending.

Or go the other route and just join NATO.

Aodhan5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420720#Comment_119420720

Sorry to break it to you, but the UK is no longer a superpower.

In the case of the Ukraine war, do you see the US joining in directly? Nope. Its true they're heavily backing Ukraine with weapons and the like however they aren't becoming directly involved in the conflict. Therefore, even if we wish to rely on the US, we would still need a credible defence force to utilise that backing and equipment.

The commission was necessary as even if we were to joing NATO, we should play a role in the defence of the western world. It's simply not fair or viable to make everyone else foot the bill.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420880#Comment_119420880

And of course with budget pressures and ever increasing demands, the idea that we can always freeload and everyone else is ok with that doesn’t real hold up either.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420880#Comment_119420880

The UK is most certainly a Superpower, does the ukraine have the same historic ties with US as Ireland does? Is the Ukraine on the doorstep of the UK and US ?

You are codding yourself if you A) Think we could defend ourselves by ourselves against a country with the power projection to invade with a slight increase in spending... and B) That the UK & US would stand idle as another nation like Russia or China decided to take over Ireland and set up shop beside them.. have a look at Taiwan.

Tippman24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119415002#Comment_119415002

I think that the second Eithne was binned for financial reasons as its budget had overrun by 4 times its estimated cost.

I can recall reading at the time (mid 80s) that a lot of Navies were very interested in the Eithne design. It had a relatively small size but had high ability. You had a 2,300 ton ship capable of hosting a helicopter. It also had the ability to take a heavier weapons load than what irish navy had equipped the ship.

The Dept of Defence did receive many enquiries about the design and I think it was Malaysia submitted a bid to puchase a licence for the design of the ship, and it offered to build a ship for the Naval Service as part of it's offer. The Irish Government were interested in the matter but stipulated that the ship was to be built in Cork.You might recall that the original cost of the construction of the Eithne was overrun by 400% when building so Malaysians walked away.

Aodhan5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420932#Comment_119420932

I'm afraid the days of "The Empire" and her glory are over my guy, the UK, at least from a military perspective is no longer a superpower. Would you call Turkey a superpower? You might notice their military would give the Brits a run for their money. That's kind of irrelevant though.

Though we do have ties with the US, if they are unwilling to directly join the Ukraine-Russia conflict, I fail to see why they would join our team if a larger power did the same to us as long as there are nuclear weapons involved and American lives on the line. Simply saying "Ah but sure lads we'd the same great great great grandfather", doesn't cut it unfortunately.

Saying we're on the doorstep of the US is also a slight exaggeration. To say that we're safe from Russia due to our distance from them as you have said before and then to say that we're on the doorstep of the US (when in fact Russia is closer as the crow flies if you measure I believe) is slightly hypocritical.

A) Slight is relative. An increase of 2 billion for example may seem small but given in the context that it would triple our defense budget, it becomes a little greater than "slight". Be under no illusion, the commission only envision the jump to 1.5 billion as a stepping stone. IMPORTANT: Furthermore, the point I keep trying to get across to you yet you fail to recognize is that NATO is set up so that a large number of smaller countries can repel a larger foe. There are 30 members in NATO. If each member spent at least 3 billion on defense as the commission had hoped we would (this really is a very small number really in the context of developed countries and you will see the likes of France, Germany and the UK spend much more), you will find that it quickly adds up and overtakes the military budget of the likes of Russia easily. So I ask you, why shouldn't we pay for our bit too?

B) Taiwan produces 90% of the world's leading edge silicon. No country wants China controlling that, yet even then, most countries have a very awkward relationship with Taiwan, many failing to even recognize it as a country. We may host many tech companies here on silicon docks, but we are making very little silicon that makes the world go around these days so Taiwan probably falls further up the list of priorities.

sparky42

Yeah there are only two superpowers, the aging US and the rising PRC, the U.K. is a major power without question but limited in what it can do.

ancientmariner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421028#Comment_119421028

I was the chairman of the naval section of building committee for P31. The total ship cost including extensive tank testing was a known budget figure with little deviation. The only unknown contested costs were for GFE (Government furnished Equipment) associated with armament. P31 came in within the range of 24/26million Euro. Well worth the money AND there never was a civil intention to repeat the process due to the discomfiture of our service partners. The first OPV was 1 million, the second about 4million, the third about 6 million, and the Fourth more than that. P31 was always to be a 20 plus million ship and came in on projections.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421127#Comment_119421127

Personally I think we are Days if not hours away from finding out how powerful/effective the PRC really is. My friend of mine is in Fuijian studying and was travelling but all flights have been cancelled.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421150#Comment_119421150

We are certainly into another Taiwan Crisis without question, whether or not China will actually pull the trigger though…? Not that any of us will want to see such a war.

Of course that’s the other angle that the “oh the US will save us” crowd miss, the US is pivoting to the Pacific, that started under Bush/Obama and has continued since. Yes of course the Ukrainian War has meant a surge of forces it is unlikely to last. The USAF and USN resources will be focused there more than Europe, hence why they want the European nations to step up.

saabsaab

We need at least a few jets able to intercept a hijacked airliner or show a presence to a foreign jet bomber. A missile system can only shoot down such a threat not ward it off. An all or nothing option unlike a manned interceptor.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421227#Comment_119421227

Fully agree, I think they realise Taiwan can’t rely on the like of Australia or any other strong US ally to assist

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119420577#Comment_119420577

42 posts since I was here last, most of them still this fool.

We have to keep to topic, yet this article can troll away to his heart's content.

Please consider the good of the forum Mods.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421028#Comment_119421028

That isn't my understanding of it, based on what I have read by people who worked in the yard,(Paddy Martin, Fifty Years a shipbuilder, well worth a read, though not linear) and what they witnessed dealing with management.

It appears the Owners, and the yard manager had the decision made to shut the yard down once Ship 989 was complete, as you needed more than orders for 2 ships to keep the large staff working and paid. There was no orders forthcoming from the commercial market, as the industry itself was in a slump, as the large Asian yards could build bigger, faster & cheaper (they still can). You had after all a workforce who in the midst of the worse recession in the history of the state were staging lightening strikes for better wages, all in an environment where the largest employers in Cork were all shutting down. At its height Verolme Cork Dockyard employed 1100 staff. About half of whom actually worked there. The rest were either using the machinery for nixers, holding card schools in hidden corners of the yard during their shift, or plain not turning up, and having a colleague clock them in and out. During the build machinery was often installed twice, to add to the work. Supposedly the Sea Riders (the first to be used by the NS) were mounted the wrong way around, stern pointing foread, so they had to be turned around before they could be lowered into the water.

The dockyard had failed to secure any orders that were not from the state in at least a decade by then. The NS, Irish Shipping & B&I could only build so many ships. There was some suggestion that the Indian Navy were interested in the design, and the Current Defence Ministers late father proposed sending P31 to the Indian Ocean so the Indian defence staff could determine the suitability of the craft in their waters. It came to nothing though

As for being over budget, I understand P23 cost IR£5m in 1979, the third ship of its type in a row, the fourth in that class. It was assumed by some that all it would take to build P31 was stick a flat space aft on a modified P20 and hope for the best. It was four years from when the ship was first proposed to Verolme to when an actual contract (i.e a fixed price) was agreed. During that time the builders realised what was required was far in excess of original proposals in 1978, and numerous economic circumstances had also impacted matters. Once that price was set, it remained constant until final delivery.

However thanks to the determination of some people, instead of a P20 with a helideck we got a proper helicopter carrying patrol vessel, comparable with what other states would call a modern corvette design, built to naval, (not commercial) standards that included modern military radar, sonar, IFF and enclosed main armament. The Aircraft handling system too was spectacular and allowed the heli to land safely on a pitching deck, and be winched safely into the ships aircraft hangar, where any routine maintenance could be carried out, away from the elements, with minimal risk to those on deck. There were built into the design plenty of scope to add equipment or armour as time passed. There are many similarities the the USCG Bear Class, (The USCG provided much assistance in the design process at the early stages,and their forward arrangement is near identical) and it says much about the design that it was able to adapt to a multitude of new roles in the near 4 decades in service.

As a consequence of both the future proofing and industrial issues, the overall cost was double what had been initially innocently expected, back when we were still talking about an enlarged P20. Just over IR£25m, or when indexed, €85m in todays money. truly a bargain, when you consider the British built P60 of similar size but without helideck hangar or air search radar cost over €100m each. Worth mentioning though that the decision to select the French FDauphin over the Westland Lynx put an end to the fantastic cooperation the Dutch Naval design body was able to give, them having no experience of operating the type

Ancientmariner is the actual expert in this regard, though I know he would not be as blunt as I when it comes to what went wrong. I wonder sir do you remember the initial rendering of the design that appeared in NS recruitment literature? Last time I saw it was over 40 years ago, part of someones long forgotten scout project and I should have reallocated it, but honesty got the better of me, and I have no doubt it only ended up being dumped soon after.

Needless to say the finished article looked nothing like what was originally suggested in the mid 70s.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421515#Comment_119421515

Speaking of Australia, I see the AUKUS sub deal might not be going as well as was planned, no surprise there really.

But yes more broadly we are at least in the most unstable period of geopolitics since the near misses of nuclear war in the 80s, with pretty much every “Western” aligned nation significantly reevaluating their security and defence policies, us continuing to stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everyone loves us is as risky as when Dev and the cabinet finally figured out that there was a bit of tension in Europe in 1939 and started trying to figure out what to do.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421227#Comment_119421227

I see earlier this week the USN want greater cooperation with the NZ navy, now that Chinese expansion is via the Solomon Islands, literally on their doorstep.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421686#Comment_119421686

Yep, NZ is one of the nations that is reevaluating their defence policy, good thing they have already got their P8s, think they are going to be needed soon enough.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421052#Comment_119421052

So to summarize what your saying...

The UK is no longer a superpower and the US definitely wouldnt help Ireland if it was attacked by Russia because it didnt help Ukraine...

The UK is still a Superpower the empire is gone but they still have a vast array of nuclear weapons, they have the economy to ramp up there military when needed and have a highly mobile well trained army. Id class that as superpower and uninvadable.

The US would certainly be helping us because anyone that invades Ireland will have to contend with the UK, regardless of whether the UK gives a **** about Ireland or not they most definitely will not sit by and allow that to happen from a strategic stand point it makes 0 sense for either the UK or US to allow Ireland to be taken over.

You'll see what the US is willing to risk when it comes to Taiwan and China has nukes. The point im trying to drive home is the difference between Ireland and the Ukraine is both cultural and strategic. You would have to be really naïve to believe the US would just allow these things to happen in Ireland.

But regardless we can agree to disagree on that because they are all fictional scenarios.

As for NATO thats exactly why im saying if we are so Ultra concerned about deterrence and defence then joining NATO is the only option that will do the job, unless of course you think our stand alone 1.5 billion budget is sufficient for defence against a nation that has the ability to project power to Ireland...

When i say we are on the US doorstep you know what i mean.. area of influence if they wanted to reinforce Europe they couldn't afford to have a enemy happily chilling in Ireland now could they. Get out the atlas again there and have a look you'll see the problem.

Having Russia bankrupt itself and isolating itself from the rest of the world while being stuck in a back and forth messy meat grinder of a conflict is a wet dream for the US from a strategic stand point.

TheTruth89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119421150#Comment_119421150

Im surprised it took as long for china to make a move on Taiwan with all the instability caused by the Ukraine conflict and the US diverting resources there. I dont think the PLA will have the mustard to take Taiwan if the US fully commits to its defense, i think there air force will be outclassed by the US.

They could level Taiwan but that would defeat the purpose.

ancientmariner

Out of control. Unprovable assumptions. Stating as fact matters that are really unknown. Using the discussion group to promote annoyance and denigration of professional people. Pity really as the comments now are getting meaningless and off topic. Dit Dah, Dit Dah Dit. Have a good voyage.

roadmaster

I could not agree more with the new poster the Truth about the waste that is being spent on these fighter jets.

The money the government is wasting on Finner Camp QRA station is not right.

As we all know the current works being carried out in Finner to host the new F15s is shocking.

Extending the runway by 500 meters ( nobody is thinking about the birds that live in the sand )

A new radar system ( That causes mindcontrol-fact)

A new all weather lighting network for the runway.( the lads driving out of ballyshannon with a few pints could get confused)

The new hangers are bigger then an aldi warehouse

The Fuel bill is so bad for the F15s they have to do a deal with Mary Lous friends to get cheap fuel

An worst of all this money could be spent by better deserving departments such as the HSE & OPW

An finally nobody is thinking of the Bundoran residents on a Tuesday afternoon trying to have a sleep in when the F15s are taking off

Larbre34

I heard they're planning to extend the runway by 5,000 metres in fact, and that they've swapped out the landing gear on the F-15s for lovely gold alloys off a Toyota Glanza that they got off a fella in Buncrana.