Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think so.. though it does beg the question of why the Empire isn't significantly more advanced technologically given they had a starship from the future (and even after a few hours had figured it out enough to use it in battle in ENT)

Would have been cooler if something like a mirror TNG era ship intercepted them rather than the Shenzhou which (if I recall right) was already seen as old by the start of Discovery.

Because they don't have the scientific collaboration of the Federation to push on

seamus

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they don't have the scientific collaboration of the Federation to push on

Also, if the dominance of the Defiant underpins the Emperor's power, then it would make no sense for her to allow the Empire to study or copy it, as the closer they get to matching its technology, the closer she is to being overthrown.

So most likely she would just let the Empire develop as normal and keep a small loyal crew manning the Defiant to maintain her power.

AtomicHorror

seamus wrote: »

Also, if the dominance of the Defiant underpins the Emperor's power, then it would make no sense for her to allow the Empire to study or copy it, as the closer they get to matching its technology, the closer she is to being overthrown.

So most likely she would just let the Empire develop as normal and keep a small loyal crew manning the Defiant to maintain her power.

Would also explain the refitting of Defiant to try and stay ahead of the curve.

goose2005

ED E wrote: »

Hate to see the good doc go, decent character. Having just watched Ryker steal the Defiant earlier today this was some timing

The DS9 Defiant is a different ship to the one in the episode, which was the Defiant (NCC-1764) from TOS Tholian Web and ENT "In a Mirror, Darkly"

goose2005

Goodshape wrote: »

And in Turnabout Intruder it's claimed that "Your world of starship captains doesn’t admit women".

Yet we have Captain Georgiou and Admiral Cornwell in Star Trek Discovery.

Madness.

the exact lines are:

JANICE: I hoped I wouldn't see you again.
KIRK: I don't blame you.
JANICE: The year we were together at Starfleet is the only time in my life I was alive.
KIRK: I never stopped you from going on with your space work.
JANICE: Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women. It isn't fair.
KIRK: No, it isn't. And you punished and tortured me because of it.
JANICE: I loved you. We could've roamed among the stars.
KIRK: We'd have killed each other.

This could be read as her saying that Kirk, like most starship captains, is "married to his job" and has no interest in a wife or family. Not that women (or indeed females of other species) can't be captains.

Evade

goose2005 wrote: »

the exact lines are:

This could be read as her saying that Kirk, like most starship captains, is "married to his job" and has no interest in a wife or family. Not that women (or indeed females of other species) can't be captains.

Given her conduct as captain it's equally likely she just wasn't fit for the position and is making excuses.

pixelburp

goose2005 wrote: »

the exact lines are:

This could be read as her saying that Kirk, like most starship captains, is "married to his job" and has no interest in a wife or family. Not that women (or indeed females of other species) can't be captains.

In isolation that might be a possible interpretation, but if you watch enough of TOS, there's a fairly prominent line of 1960s era sexism throughout the show. Lots of patronising comments & snark about ensigns, nurses and so on; hell the miniskirts should be clue enough Honestly I think that comment can be taken literally. Besides, wasn't that a body swap episode? I seem to recall a lot of 'hysterical women' stereotyping in it..

goose2005

fxotoole wrote: »

I only vaguely remember the TOS Mirror episode with bearded Spock, but why is Spock even a member of the alt-universe Enterprise if Terrans hate Vulcans?

He's also half-Terran. Anyway, the empire hating non-humans wasn't in the original mirror episode

Drumpot

I thought Tyler was just a kind of Manchurian candidate kind of thing.

Seems kind of overly elaborate for it to be a Klingons body scrunched up to look human and their mind morphed with a humans memory!

quad_red

Mmmmm.

Thought the episode was a mess tbh. Have enjoyed Discovery up to this but the mirror universe stuff just doesn't seem to fit.

One big plus was Bernham though. She's a brilliant actress. That scene in the lift was electric.

goose2005

pixelburp wrote: »

In isolation that might be a possible interpretation, but if you watch enough of TOS, there's a fairly prominent line of 1960s era sexism throughout the show. Lots of patronising comments & snark about ensigns, nurses and so on; hell the miniskirts should be clue enough Honestly I think that comment can be taken literally. Besides, wasn't that a body swap episode? I seem to recall a lot of 'hysterical women' stereotyping in it..

yes, but there are some women in leadership roles, like the Commissioner in "Metamorphosis"

fisgon

This was the silliest ep. yet. I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but the whole idea of a mirror universe is not just implausible, but ludicrously impossible.

IF it is an alternate universe, how is it that exactly the same people exist in it, at exactly the same age, on ships that have exactly the same names. Impossible to take seriously such complete disregard for any kind of plausibility.

Maybe I am just being picky in expecting Star Trek to make sense, but it would be nice not to have our intelligence insulted.

Also, that Terran Empire, basically the Nazis mixed with Star Wars' empire, but less fearsome. Very weak. Thinking about giving up on this series.

pixelburp

fisgon wrote: »

This was the silliest ep. yet. I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but the whole idea of a mirror universe is not just implausible, but ludicrously impossible.

IF it is an alternate universe, how is it that exactly the same people exist in it, at exactly the same age, on ships that have exactly the same names. Impossible to take seriously such complete disregard for any kind of plausibility.

Maybe I am just being picky in expecting Star Trek to make sense, but it would be nice not to have our intelligence insulted.

Also, that Terran Empire, basically the Nazis mixed with Star Wars' empire, but less fearsome. Very weak. Thinking about giving up on this series.

I'm guessing you've not watched much Trek before Discovery because the evil Mirror Universe is a staple of previous iterations. It's definitely the most in depth and complete a visit, but we've been here before. Heck it's probably the most famous 'alt universe' storyline in SciFi.

The alternate universe as a storytelling device is as cliché as they come, and should never be taken with anything less than a generous pinch if salt. It's the ultimate 'road less travelled' concept, taken to its natural conclusion using the magic of science fiction. I don't think bashing it for technical accuracy makes sense as it's never about how you get there, but what these inverted characters can represent.

CramCycle

It is the sci fi version of the nature vs nurture discussion.

fisgon

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm guessing you've not watched much Trek before Discovery because the evil Mirror Universe is a staple of previous iterations. It's definitely the most in depth and complete a visit, but we've been here before. Heck it's probably the most famous 'alt universe' storyline in SciFi.

The alternate universe as a storytelling device is as cliché as they come, and should never be taken with anything less than a generous pinch if salt. It's the ultimate 'road less travelled' concept, taken to its natural conclusion using the magic of science fiction. I don't think bashing it for technical accuracy makes sense as it's never about how you get there, but what these inverted characters can represent.

I have watched a lot of Star Trek, including the original series. I realize that the mirror universe was an interesting part of that series, which was made in the sixties, when sci-fi TV was in its infancy, and it was a bit of fun. I don't think it is too much to expect the present series to be a little more sophisticated.

But it is not a "road less travelled" situation, as the whole universe itself is different. The fact that there is a Terran empire shows this, the human race is of a very different nature to the one in the Trek universe, so the same people emerging with the same ship names! It is really just laughable. I would prefer them to at least make an attempt at taking their scenarios seriously.

Also, it is interesting that people who don't really want to hear criticism of something use the word "bashing", in order to suggest that the opinion is not valid ("church bashing" etc.) or is motivated by spite or bitterness. I was not "bashing" anything, simply giving my opinion as someone who wanted to like this series, and have been largely disappointed.

pixelburp

I'm not suggesting your criticism isn't valid, nor is there a need to insinuate bitterness, don't overanalyse the use of one word as some attack against your opinion; we've happily discussed this shows pros and cons this far, so don't assume to be defensive but the alternate universe is a very well worn cliché of science fiction, and more often than not is a silly, exaggerated story of roads less travelled, evil-goatee versions of heroic characters, apocalypses, zeppelins, nazis winning wars etc. etc. The nature of the beast invites the extreme, even the camp sometime

The multiverse theory opens the door for any number of scenarios, from trivial to extreme, so with a sprinkle of narrative coincidence why not have Burnhams former mentor and festering emotional wound turn up as a big player in the Terrain Empire? It's a helluva lot more interesting than some random guest star. Sure it's a bit daft from a plausibility POV, but honestly that's what alternate universes stories do *shrug*

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm not suggesting your criticism isn't valid, nor is there a need to insinuate bitterness, don't overanalyse the use of one word as some attack against your opinion; we've happily discussed this shows pros and cons this far, so don't assume to be defensive but the alternate universe is a very well worn cliché of science fiction, and more often than not is a silly, exaggerated story of roads less travelled, evil-goatee versions of heroic characters, apocalypses, zeppelins, nazis winning wars etc. etc. The nature of the beast invites the extreme, even the camp sometime

The multiverse theory opens the door for any number of scenarios, from trivial to extreme, so with a sprinkle of narrative coincidence why not have Burnhams former mentor and festering emotional wound turn up as a big player in the Terrain Empire? It's a helluva lot more interesting than some random guest star. Sure it's a bit daft from a plausibility POV, but honestly that's what alternate universes stories do *shrug*

And in a multiverse of infinite combinations it's as possible as the next.

And as for the ease of crossing I always just assumed that its close enough to our own that it's the easiest to access

Canis Lupus

Been enjoying Discovery up until this mirror universe crap and not enjoying the entire Ash thing either. Trying to motivate myself to watch the next episode. Maybe it gets better.

ezra_

fisgon wrote: »

I have watched a lot of Star Trek, including the original series. I realize that the mirror universe was an interesting part of that series, which was made in the sixties, when sci-fi TV was in its infancy, and it was a bit of fun. I don't think it is too much to expect the present series to be a little more sophisticated.

But it is not a "road less travelled" situation, as the whole universe itself is different. The fact that there is a Terran empire shows this, the human race is of a very different nature to the one in the Trek universe, so the same people emerging with the same ship names! It is really just laughable. I would prefer them to at least make an attempt at taking their scenarios seriously.

Also, it is interesting that people who don't really want to hear criticism of something use the word "bashing", in order to suggest that the opinion is not valid ("church bashing" etc.) or is motivated by spite or bitterness. I was not "bashing" anything, simply giving my opinion as someone who wanted to like this series, and have been largely disappointed.

But it has to be similar - the episodes won't work if we don't see mirror characters/ships that we can identify with.

If everything was different/unrecognisable, then you don't need to jump to the MU, it's just another episode of trek with new characters. And if you do make the jump into an MU with a different set of characters, then you need to spend time introducing them to us which costs time that can be spent on the main story arc.

Spear

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Been enjoying Discovery up until this mirror universe crap and not enjoying the entire Ash thing either. Trying to motivate myself to watch the next episode. Maybe it gets better.

I know you're behind the current episodes, and to avoid specific spoilers, I'll just say that the mirror universe stuff is woven into and fundamental to the entire series, as it does all form 1 large coherent arc.

But if you've still no tolerance for it, that'll be it for the MU and Discovery after season 1.

PhiloCypher

Spear wrote: »

I know you're behind the current episodes, and to avoid specific spoilers, I'll just say that the mirror universe stuff is woven into and fundamental to the entire series, as it does all form 1 large coherent arc.

But if you've still no tolerance for it, that'll be it for the MU and Discovery after season 1.

I think my biggest problem with the mirror universe stuff is its placement in the midst of a life or death struggle with the klingons. If Discovery hadn't begun that arc and had started out with a more traditional episodic structure this mirror arc would work gang busters for me. But as things stand with the 14 (?) Ep order we have its unlikely we'll get back to the prime universe in enough to time to adequately resolve the klingon war arc.

In short while I'm enjoying the constituent parts I feel they hang together awkwardly.

Are we really resolving the war in season 1??

PhiloCypher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are we really resolving the war in season 1??

Not end but transition from outright conflict into the cold war stand off we see in TOS in the aftermath of Kol's death.