Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

Spear

Since my sleep pattern is messed up....

Well, that's some fan theories confirmed, others shot down. But the really unexpected twist

well, that was the one for Culber.

I had expected a single mirror universe ep, they seem to have bought into it far more than I expected.

spookwoman

Enjoyed it and it's not a cringefest like the other mirror universe episodes.

I'd say a lot of those who don't like Tilly will change their opinion

ED E

Hate to see the good doc go, decent character. Having just watched Ryker steal the Defiant earlier today this was some timing

Slydice

3/4 through

:eek:

brb

FutureGuy

God ****ing damnit, that was amazing.

Slydice

Wow, that

killing Culber scene came as a shock

!

The whole episode was really good.

I guess the

next few episodes, maybe the season, will play out in the mirror universe.

Cool to see the nod to Star Trek: Enterprise with

the USS Defiant from their mirror universe episode.

So like, I guess it might be

that we'll see the Discovery get to the Defian or find out about it and then maybe go after the Tholians to make a wormhole back to their universe.

Or ...

maybe Empress Sato will have started work on tech to get back to the discovery universe

Finally.. Loca..

in the pain chamber

.. oh boy!

Varik

Had no idea this was back until this morning.

hal9550

EPIC

so basically that was EPIC - it was UTTERLY EPIC

Nod to Enterprise was spectacular - The Mirror Universe.. it was class

I mean im basically watching it again as i type this - honestly i would challenge anyone to say that was below par

i am LITERALLY pacing around since i watched it

and i screamed when

Voq/Tyler started reciting a klingon prayer -

One question.. " Jim, if we're here, what do you suppose our counterparts doing back in our universe"

?????:D:pac

Starfleet Student

Wow that was really really good.
I loved the nod to Enterprise.

Vicxas

Well that certainly threw me a curveball, I suspected like Spear the plot twist but the rest was a cheerful surprise.

Fenster

Hail Captain Tilly! Long live the Empire! There is no Captain in my heart, but the black heart of Captain Killy! Death to the rebels!

ezra_

I thought that was excellent. Just annoyed there was the break over Christmas!

Very interesting to see where they go with this for the rest of the season.

Spear

Vicxas wrote: »

Well that certainly threw me a curveball, I suspected like Spear the plot twist but the rest was a cheerful surprise.

Given that they've given so many clues for many episodes now, mirror Stammets, the casting entry for Ash Tyler/Voq, they made the twists expected. So when the real twist appeared, it was completely unheralded and happened when a viewer wouldn't be expecting another just after Voq. Is it possible the writers actually know what they're doing?

Unfortunately I also already suspect how they're going to get round the departed doc.

Slydice

Spear wrote: »

Unfortunately I also already suspect how they're going to get round the departed doc.

Uh huh!

CramCycle

The accent was very well done.

Spear

CramCycle wrote: »

The accent was very well done.

I thought he'd jokingly do his real English accent instead. Seems to have been an nod to ToS there.

Skedaddle

Maybe it was just the kind of weird vibe that strobing netflix gives, but I REALLY disliked that episode.

c_man

I really enjoyed that. Didn't really like the Doc, so no harm done in my book! Judging by the "Don't go to the Palace" remarks by Stammets, I'm hoping to see Terran Empire Earth and the Emperor (whoever that is!).

Goodshape

That was pretty great!! Loved it.

Yggr of Asgard

I wonder which episode you all saw because it can't have been the same one I watched.

Nearly everything in this episode was telegraphed long ago, the writers choices were clear since a while and I have no problem calling them lazy.

But than again, it's supposed to be art and it's subjective, but for me this was just another example how they don't really have a clear vision and just make it up as they go ignoring existing canon.

And sure, we have this big important piece of information, but we totally did not think of transmitting it to Starfleet. Plus seriously who did not see it coming that the Doctor would be the first to confirm what was clear for month now and pay the price. That story line was so predictable it's a joke that it had to come.


Now let's see how long it takes before we move off the mirror universe, let's not forget in theory time moves the same in there, so it's of importance that we rejoin the other universe in light of the important info we need to bring to Starfleet. But I'm sure in this show time will move different too so we all going to have it wrapped up nicely at the end.

Johnny Storm

Spear wrote: »

... Is it possible the writers actually know what they're doing?...

Just maybe!:pac:
I really enjoyed that episode, I must say.
The writers have pulled some really dumb ****, eg Security Chief Landry effectively committing suicide by tardigrade, the shuttle pilot getting eaten by space-microbes and then drifting dead by the windows of the shuttle scene and the whole magic mushroom drive concept just for a start........
This is the only episode so far that makes me think they just might know what they are doing.
Here's hoping!!!!!

Edited to add - I thought they could have pushed the boat out a bit more with the mirror universe uniforms.....

Evade

It was fine. The Tyler situation is dumb any sort of scan should reveal he's not Human. Captain Tilly is better than I expected.

Johnny Storm wrote: »

This is the only episode so far that makes me think they just might know what they are doing.
Here's hoping!!!!!

I wonder were the current showrunners saddled with stuff the previous showrunners had already done and just had to get through it to get to where they wanted to be.

The only gripe I have* is nothing can really happen on the Prime side because Mirror Mirror still has to happen. Enterprise kind of let the cat out of the bag in the Mirror Universe.

*aside from my usual complaints

FutureGuy

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

I wonder which episode you all saw because it can't have been the same one I watched.

Nearly everything in this episode was telegraphed long ago, the writers choices were clear since a while and I have no problem calling them lazy.

But than again, it's supposed to be art and it's subjective, but for me this was just another example how they don't really have a clear vision and just make it up as they go ignoring existing canon.

And sure, we have this big important piece of information, but we totally did not think of transmitting it to Starfleet. Plus seriously who did not see it coming that the Doctor would be the first to confirm what was clear for month now and pay the price. That story line was so predictable it's a joke that it had to come.


Now let's see how long it takes before we move off the mirror universe, let's not forget in theory time moves the same in there, so it's of importance that we rejoin the other universe in light of the important info we need to bring to Starfleet. But I'm sure in this show time will move different too so we all going to have it wrapped up nicely at the end.

For a show you seem to hate, you do seem to watch it a lot

Yggr of Asgard

FutureGuy wrote: »

For a show you seem to hate, you do seem to watch it a lot

Hate is such a strong word.

It has some entertainment value and there are good things in there too, but some of the things are just not good enough for what this show is supposed or wants to be.

FutureGuy

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Hate is such a strong word.

It has some entertainment value and there are good things in there too, but some of the things are just not good enough for what this show is supposed or wants to be.

Just going my your comments in the other thread. I must ask how you though the doctors death was evident weeks ago? I can’t believe anyone saw that coming?

_Kaiser_

Just watched it there..

While I agree that a lot of the reveals were telegraphed long before, the execution (heh!) was excellent (note: I love the Mirror Universe/Alternate reality stuff anyway - except for what they did in DS9).
I really liked the transformation to the ISS Discovery and crew montage, though it seems a bit convenient that a destroyed rebel ship would have such a complete database on current Starfleet crew manifests. Nice nod to the Defiant (but again, a bit odd how the random rebel ship happened to have this top secret piece of intel...)

Tilly suddenly became interesting and very watchable.. not just the annoying Wesley Crusher character of the show.

Agree that the dear doctor's departure will likely be easily resolved by the time they go back which is a shame as the character is no great loss IMO

Overall a solid return. As I've said previously, it helps that I've managed to take it for what it is and not worry about the canonical aspects so much.

The_Valeyard

very good episode. Enjoyed it.


My current theory is Lorca knew about the Defiant and the Federation from the Prime universe. Maybe Archer never destroyed all the files.


I think Lorca tried to overthrow the Empire to create the Federation, but somehow got thrown into our universe.

CramCycle

Spear wrote: »

I thought he'd jokingly do his real English accent instead. Seems to have been an nod to ToS there.

I thought that as well but it wasn't like the TOS one, it sounded like a genuine accent, it was very well done. A nod without sounding like you were making a joke of it if you will. Probably the better call as we would all be giving out stink if he came out with a mimic of the great Mr. Scott

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

though it seems a bit convenient that a destroyed rebel ship would have such a complete database on current Starfleet crew manifests. Nice nod to the Defiant (but again, a bit odd how the random rebel ship happened to have this top secret piece of intel...)

Given that it was the Defiant that installed Hoshi as Empress it might have been hard to cover up. I do kind of want to know who the current Emperor is. If it was no one special they probably would have given a name. Georgiu or Culver are my bets.

The crew thing was a bit convenient but having lists of everyone in Starfleet on each ship seems to be pretty common in the Prime universe so it probably is in the Mirror Universe too so the rebels having it as well is pretty likely.

Was the schematic of the Defiant the first traditionally laid out Starfleet ship that's shown in STD?

_Kaiser_

Evade wrote: »

Was the schematic of the Defiant the first traditionally laid out Starfleet ship that's shown in STD?

I think so.. though it does beg the question of why the Empire isn't significantly more advanced technologically given they had a starship from the future (and even after a few hours had figured it out enough to use it in battle in ENT)

Would have been cooler if something like a mirror TNG era ship intercepted them rather than the Shenzhou which (if I recall right) was already seen as old by the start of Discovery.

_Kaiser_

(Picture from a post on Reddit)



I will also say though, that I'm glad they seem to have kept closer to the TOS designs than the JJ Prise version.

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think so.. though it does beg the question of why the Empire isn't significantly more advanced technologically given they had a starship from the future (and even after a few hours had figured it out enough to use it in battle in ENT)

The Empire seems to be more advanced anyway. The Imperial NX class ships in in a Mirror Darkly were already more advanced than their Prime Universe counterparts. They had shields and could surpass warp 5 safely. It does make a little sense since war has a tendency to accelerate technological progress if you manage to not kill everyone in the process.

It's possible that Hoshi did what Archer wanted and kept the Defiant for herself and didn't let anyone study so she could keep that tactical advantage.

_Kaiser_

Evade wrote: »

Given that it was the Defiant that installed Hoshi as Empress it might have been hard to cover up. I do kind of want to know who the current Emperor is. If it was no one special they probably would have given a name. Georgiu or Culver are my bets.

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Hoshi could still be around, McCoy lived to be 140. I wonder if the Defiant is still around serving as the Imperial Palace. Having not seen an STD Constitution class we can't be sure but that extra bit at the bend of the nacelle pylon isn't usually there.

fritzelly

Was really pumped for this episode - just knew it was gonna be the mirror universe
As for the wolf in the pack - that was hinted at enough to not be a big reveal
Don't tell me Culber comes back as an hologram! (Writers say the character is not totally gone...)

Really enjoyed it and looks like they are staying there for a while (in the mirror universe)

CramCycle

fritzelly wrote: »

al
Don't tell me Culber comes back as an hologram! (Writers say the character is now totally gone...)

Off topic but I really hate this, I know it comes up all the time but would writers, producers, advertisers ever just F off and leave some surprises. This is a minor thing but from Sky showing the end scene from a season finale in Buffy in the ad before it went on, to BBC telling you who the doctor is months in advance, I am just sick of it, do they not think that people enjoy the unknown anymore.

i loved discussing DS9 in college with my flatmate, having no idea what would come next, I miss those days

GRUMPY OLD FART RANT OVER

This said, despite all the flags on what was coming, not all of them panned out, which is good, some did which holds with internal logic (not everything needs to be a twist).

I really enjoyed it, the murder and death was a bit too non trek for me but still good.

fritzelly

CramCycle wrote: »

Off topic but I really hate this, I know it comes up all the time but would writers, producers, advertisers ever just F off and leave some surprises. This is a minor thing but from Sky showing the end scene from a season finale in Buffy in the ad before it went on, to BBC telling you who the doctor is months in advance, I am just sick of it, do they not think that people enjoy the unknown anymore.

i loved discussing DS9 in college with my flatmate, having no idea what would come next, I miss those days

GRUMPY OLD FART RANT OVER

This said, despite all the flags on what was coming, not all of them panned out, which is good, some did which holds with internal logic (not everything needs to be a twist).

I really enjoyed it, the murder and death was a bit too non trek for me but still good.

Remember reading something about the Doctor reveals and the producers et al saying nothing is sacred anymore in this age and it's literally impossible to keep a secret so may as well come out up front about it

(edited my comment to say "not" not "now"

CramCycle

fritzelly wrote: »

Remember reading something about the Doctor reveals and the producers et al saying nothing is sacred anymore in this age and it's literally impossible to keep a secret so may as well come out up front about it

(edited my comment to say "not" not "now"

I think it is laziness on the producers part. Now I have to actively try to avoid spoilers, up until recently I just used to tell certain people to F off and I would stop reading certain sites.

Now they have thte spoiler in the headlines, so thanks to newsfeed, difficult to avoid. My partner, who doesn't even like sci fi told me who the new doctor was, so I just came back and started reading threads again.

Back on topic, the captain is the one that is throwing me,

his statement when he turned to the bridge and said what was possible happening was as if this was an expected thing, classic trek but out of kilter with the current show. Saru was the only one with a normal reaction when he pointed out how convenient this all was.

fritzelly

Don't know about the Captain yet - they're teasing something for sure

Goodshape

I just googled the"doctor Culber" after watching the episode and read that (future spoiler)

he'll be back

in a prominent Google News 'card' above the search results.

Literally right in the headline.

Ah well.

AtomicHorror

Great episode. A couple of expected twists, but really didn't see the Culber scene coming.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Plus seriously who did not see it coming that the Doctor would be the first to confirm what was clear for month now and pay the price. That story line was so predictable it's a joke that it had to come.

So you'll have mentioned this very obvious plot point previously, yes?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Are they related to Sulu and Harry Kim too?

expectationlost

wasn't the defiant shaped more like a big shuttle then a typical disc and engines type thing

Evade

expectationlost wrote: »

wasn't the defiant shaped more like a big shuttle then a typical disc and engines type thing

You're thinking of the Defiant from DS9. This is the the one from TOS (and Enterprise) which is the same class as the Enterprise in TOS.

Stark

Yeah it's the Defiant from "The Tholian Web" episode of TOS which was also featured in the "In a mirror, darkly" two parter of Enterprise.

1hnr79jr65

I have always enjoyed Tilly's role but after this episode, im so looking forward to what comes next for her.

That line

If you greeted me that way, Connor, I'd cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots.

I nearly fell off my couch laughing and surprised at same time when she said that. By far my fav character and looking a bit hotter this ep too :eek:

Johnny Storm

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

Johnny Storm

Since, in the TOS era:
- there is no spore drive
- they can not penetrate cloaking fields
- they have no pre-knowledge of the Mirror Universe

... could this possibly mean that the Disco is not going to make it back to our universe?
Of if they do their memories will have been wiped or maybe there is some vitally important reason why they cannot share their knowledge?

Goodshape

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

I think that's a strong possibility alright. There's enough little bits here and there, and some not-so-little bits tbh, that would make sense if that were the case.

Also, can't shake the feeling that Jason Isaacs has a career to get back to :-/. He perhaps doesn't need to be a main character on a TV show for multiple seasons. Would be very happy if he sticks around though, in any capacity.

seamus

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

This was my suspicion. At lot things seemed to fall into place when they revealed their mirror counterparts' fates; Most likely Lorca is the same one that escaped Burnham in the Mirror, made it to the Prime universe and when assigned to the Discovery started to realise he could use it to get back.

And understanding how good Burnham is at what she does, and the emperor's like of her, he knew he could use her to get to the emperor. Hence why he went to such lengths to get Burnham on his ship and to protect her.

There was always an impression that Lorca is a step or two ahead of everyone - his knowledge of the mycelial networks and the 133 jumps, for example. The comment in this episode that Terrans are paranoid and terrified, speaks to Lorca pouncing out of bed with his phaser when the Admiral woke him. I think this pretty much confirms that he is from the mirror universe.

I expect there'll be a twist though; that Mirror Lorca is trying to kill the emperor, but is doing it to try and collapse the empire, not rule it. So the Disco crew will find out that they've been brought here against their wishes, but that Lorca is trying to do a good thing and they're stuck in that universe without his help anyway.

Johnny Storm wrote: »

... could this possibly mean that the Disco is not going to make it back to our universe?

It would make for an awfully short programme. I can't see 3/4/5/6 seasons in the mirror universe - the whole Nazi salute and over-the-top villainry will get wearing pretty quick. They could also arrange for the Discovery to be destroyed in their attempt to get back, but then you've got a series called Discovery...without a ship.
I expect that a chunk of this series will include what happened to the ISS Discovery in the Prime universe; Captain Tilly wreaking havoc in the Federation with a ship that can't be stopped.

Perhaps Discovery will be destroyed in their attempt to get back, a chunk of the crew are lost. But they get back and then take the ISS Discovery for themselves. Of course the ISS doesn't have the anti-Klingon data, and Lorca might die in the whole saga, which leaves Discovery free to go off on totally new adventures without messing up the timeline; Starfleet would classify the incident.

Johnny Storm

seamus wrote: »

... that Lorca is trying to do a good thing ...

that would be a great twist

... I can't see 3/4/5/6 seasons in the mirror universe - the whole Nazi salute and over-the-top villainry will get wearing pretty quick. ...

+1

...Starfleet would classify the incident...

Section 31 ...... :cool:

Mitch Connor

Could the Lorca that tried to overthrow the Empire be the 'good lorca', and the lorca we have be the Terran one?

We have seen that when you swap universes you swap with the person in the other universe (or that is what I took from their quantum signature talk). So....

At some point Star Fleet Lorca swaps with Terran Lorca - and has command of a Terran ship. He stays true to his star fleet ideals and tries to invoke positive change in the Terran universe (by over throwing the Empire) - but is defeated and sent on the run in the Terran universe.

Terran Lorca is tranfered to 'our Universe' and tries to simply get back. Which he has now done. Dunno how it would play out from there.