Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I think so.. though it does beg the question of why the Empire isn't significantly more advanced technologically given they had a starship from the future (and even after a few hours had figured it out enough to use it in battle in ENT)

The Empire seems to be more advanced anyway. The Imperial NX class ships in in a Mirror Darkly were already more advanced than their Prime Universe counterparts. They had shields and could surpass warp 5 safely. It does make a little sense since war has a tendency to accelerate technological progress if you manage to not kill everyone in the process.

It's possible that Hoshi did what Archer wanted and kept the Defiant for herself and didn't let anyone study so she could keep that tactical advantage.

_Kaiser_

Evade wrote: »

Given that it was the Defiant that installed Hoshi as Empress it might have been hard to cover up. I do kind of want to know who the current Emperor is. If it was no one special they probably would have given a name. Georgiu or Culver are my bets.

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Evade

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Hoshi could still be around, McCoy lived to be 140. I wonder if the Defiant is still around serving as the Imperial Palace. Having not seen an STD Constitution class we can't be sure but that extra bit at the bend of the nacelle pylon isn't usually there.

fritzelly

Was really pumped for this episode - just knew it was gonna be the mirror universe
As for the wolf in the pack - that was hinted at enough to not be a big reveal
Don't tell me Culber comes back as an hologram! (Writers say the character is not totally gone...)

Really enjoyed it and looks like they are staying there for a while (in the mirror universe)

CramCycle

fritzelly wrote: »

al
Don't tell me Culber comes back as an hologram! (Writers say the character is now totally gone...)

Off topic but I really hate this, I know it comes up all the time but would writers, producers, advertisers ever just F off and leave some surprises. This is a minor thing but from Sky showing the end scene from a season finale in Buffy in the ad before it went on, to BBC telling you who the doctor is months in advance, I am just sick of it, do they not think that people enjoy the unknown anymore.

i loved discussing DS9 in college with my flatmate, having no idea what would come next, I miss those days

GRUMPY OLD FART RANT OVER

This said, despite all the flags on what was coming, not all of them panned out, which is good, some did which holds with internal logic (not everything needs to be a twist).

I really enjoyed it, the murder and death was a bit too non trek for me but still good.

fritzelly

CramCycle wrote: »

Off topic but I really hate this, I know it comes up all the time but would writers, producers, advertisers ever just F off and leave some surprises. This is a minor thing but from Sky showing the end scene from a season finale in Buffy in the ad before it went on, to BBC telling you who the doctor is months in advance, I am just sick of it, do they not think that people enjoy the unknown anymore.

i loved discussing DS9 in college with my flatmate, having no idea what would come next, I miss those days

GRUMPY OLD FART RANT OVER

This said, despite all the flags on what was coming, not all of them panned out, which is good, some did which holds with internal logic (not everything needs to be a twist).

I really enjoyed it, the murder and death was a bit too non trek for me but still good.

Remember reading something about the Doctor reveals and the producers et al saying nothing is sacred anymore in this age and it's literally impossible to keep a secret so may as well come out up front about it

(edited my comment to say "not" not "now"

CramCycle

fritzelly wrote: »

Remember reading something about the Doctor reveals and the producers et al saying nothing is sacred anymore in this age and it's literally impossible to keep a secret so may as well come out up front about it

(edited my comment to say "not" not "now"

I think it is laziness on the producers part. Now I have to actively try to avoid spoilers, up until recently I just used to tell certain people to F off and I would stop reading certain sites.

Now they have thte spoiler in the headlines, so thanks to newsfeed, difficult to avoid. My partner, who doesn't even like sci fi told me who the new doctor was, so I just came back and started reading threads again.

Back on topic, the captain is the one that is throwing me,

his statement when he turned to the bridge and said what was possible happening was as if this was an expected thing, classic trek but out of kilter with the current show. Saru was the only one with a normal reaction when he pointed out how convenient this all was.

fritzelly

Don't know about the Captain yet - they're teasing something for sure

Goodshape

I just googled the"doctor Culber" after watching the episode and read that (future spoiler)

he'll be back

in a prominent Google News 'card' above the search results.

Literally right in the headline.

Ah well.

AtomicHorror

Great episode. A couple of expected twists, but really didn't see the Culber scene coming.

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Plus seriously who did not see it coming that the Doctor would be the first to confirm what was clear for month now and pay the price. That story line was so predictable it's a joke that it had to come.

So you'll have mentioned this very obvious plot point previously, yes?

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I read some speculation that it could be

Georgiou and that she is a descendant of Hoshi. That'd be cool and another nice nod.

Are they related to Sulu and Harry Kim too?

expectationlost

wasn't the defiant shaped more like a big shuttle then a typical disc and engines type thing

Evade

expectationlost wrote: »

wasn't the defiant shaped more like a big shuttle then a typical disc and engines type thing

You're thinking of the Defiant from DS9. This is the the one from TOS (and Enterprise) which is the same class as the Enterprise in TOS.

Stark

Yeah it's the Defiant from "The Tholian Web" episode of TOS which was also featured in the "In a mirror, darkly" two parter of Enterprise.

1hnr79jr65

I have always enjoyed Tilly's role but after this episode, im so looking forward to what comes next for her.

That line

If you greeted me that way, Connor, I'd cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots.

I nearly fell off my couch laughing and surprised at same time when she said that. By far my fav character and looking a bit hotter this ep too :eek:

Johnny Storm

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

Johnny Storm

Since, in the TOS era:
- there is no spore drive
- they can not penetrate cloaking fields
- they have no pre-knowledge of the Mirror Universe

... could this possibly mean that the Disco is not going to make it back to our universe?
Of if they do their memories will have been wiped or maybe there is some vitally important reason why they cannot share their knowledge?

Goodshape

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

I think that's a strong possibility alright. There's enough little bits here and there, and some not-so-little bits tbh, that would make sense if that were the case.

Also, can't shake the feeling that Jason Isaacs has a career to get back to :-/. He perhaps doesn't need to be a main character on a TV show for multiple seasons. Would be very happy if he sticks around though, in any capacity.

seamus

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Does anyone think that the reason Lorca has been so protective of Burnham when she wants to go on away missions ("bring her back or don't come back yourself" etc) is that he

intends to use her personal connection to the Emperor as part of his plan to get his revenge on / overthrow the Emperor

This was my suspicion. At lot things seemed to fall into place when they revealed their mirror counterparts' fates; Most likely Lorca is the same one that escaped Burnham in the Mirror, made it to the Prime universe and when assigned to the Discovery started to realise he could use it to get back.

And understanding how good Burnham is at what she does, and the emperor's like of her, he knew he could use her to get to the emperor. Hence why he went to such lengths to get Burnham on his ship and to protect her.

There was always an impression that Lorca is a step or two ahead of everyone - his knowledge of the mycelial networks and the 133 jumps, for example. The comment in this episode that Terrans are paranoid and terrified, speaks to Lorca pouncing out of bed with his phaser when the Admiral woke him. I think this pretty much confirms that he is from the mirror universe.

I expect there'll be a twist though; that Mirror Lorca is trying to kill the emperor, but is doing it to try and collapse the empire, not rule it. So the Disco crew will find out that they've been brought here against their wishes, but that Lorca is trying to do a good thing and they're stuck in that universe without his help anyway.

Johnny Storm wrote: »

... could this possibly mean that the Disco is not going to make it back to our universe?

It would make for an awfully short programme. I can't see 3/4/5/6 seasons in the mirror universe - the whole Nazi salute and over-the-top villainry will get wearing pretty quick. They could also arrange for the Discovery to be destroyed in their attempt to get back, but then you've got a series called Discovery...without a ship.
I expect that a chunk of this series will include what happened to the ISS Discovery in the Prime universe; Captain Tilly wreaking havoc in the Federation with a ship that can't be stopped.

Perhaps Discovery will be destroyed in their attempt to get back, a chunk of the crew are lost. But they get back and then take the ISS Discovery for themselves. Of course the ISS doesn't have the anti-Klingon data, and Lorca might die in the whole saga, which leaves Discovery free to go off on totally new adventures without messing up the timeline; Starfleet would classify the incident.

Johnny Storm

seamus wrote: »

... that Lorca is trying to do a good thing ...

that would be a great twist

... I can't see 3/4/5/6 seasons in the mirror universe - the whole Nazi salute and over-the-top villainry will get wearing pretty quick. ...

+1

...Starfleet would classify the incident...

Section 31 ...... :cool:

Mitch Connor

Could the Lorca that tried to overthrow the Empire be the 'good lorca', and the lorca we have be the Terran one?

We have seen that when you swap universes you swap with the person in the other universe (or that is what I took from their quantum signature talk). So....

At some point Star Fleet Lorca swaps with Terran Lorca - and has command of a Terran ship. He stays true to his star fleet ideals and tries to invoke positive change in the Terran universe (by over throwing the Empire) - but is defeated and sent on the run in the Terran universe.

Terran Lorca is tranfered to 'our Universe' and tries to simply get back. Which he has now done. Dunno how it would play out from there.

ezra_

Why can't they just hook someone else up to the spore drive?

Greyjoy

I really enjoyed this episode, Captain Tilly was a delight. Unlike the first half of the season this episode had me wondering "what happens next?". The death was a surprise but it felt a little too much like it was done for shock value especially since they're not going to deal with the repercussion until the 'away team' returns from the Shenzhou. There were a few minor quibbles - redressing the Discovery as its ISS counterpart felt a little too easy, it made it feel like an A-team episode. I could accept them disguising the bridge crew for visual communications but the entire ship felt like overkill.

I agree with the theory that they'll probably use the mirror universe as a way to sideline the spore drive from the 'Prime' timeline. It does raise the question though that if the Discovery crew make it back to the Prime universe they'll have future knowledge that their USS Defiant will cross over into the Mirror universe.

Johnny Storm

Goodshape wrote: »

... can't shake the feeling that Jason Isaacs has a career to get back to :-/. He perhaps doesn't need to be a main character on a TV show for multiple seasons. Would be very happy if he sticks around though, in any capacity.

The Lorca from "our" universe may yet show up?

Johnny Storm

Greyjoy wrote: »

... it made it feel like an A-team episode. ....

Yes, they even had a montage .....:pac:

Johnny Storm

ezra_ wrote: »

Why can't they just hook someone else up to the spore drive?

Wait till they get their hands on Mirror-Stammetts...

Mitch Connor

Greyjoy wrote: »

I really enjoyed this episode, Captain Tilly was a delight. Unlike the first half of the season this episode had me wondering "what happens next?". The death was a surprise but it felt a little too much like it was done for shock value especially since they're not going to deal with the repercussion until the 'away team' returns from the Shenzhou. There were a few minor quibbles - redressing the Discovery as its ISS counterpart felt a little too easy, it made it feel like an A-team episode. I could accept them disguising the bridge crew for visual communications but the entire ship felt like overkill.

I agree with the theory that they'll probably use the mirror universe as a way to sideline the spore drive from the 'Prime' timeline. It does raise the question though that if the Discovery crew make it back to the Prime universe they'll have future knowledge that their USS Defiant will cross over into the Mirror universe.

If they didn't do the entire ship/crew then they would have to come up with a reason why no one could ever beam to the Discovery. They will have a hard time as it is, I reckon, cause they have a number of non-human crew that they will need to hide.

BrookieD

I have to admit that was great TV - I loved it - Welcome return for me. also i only just noticed the Terran Empire insignia is the Delta badge flipped and mirrored... ;-)

JoeyJJ

Was decent enough.

Surely with the level of tech on board, surely an alarm would be going off if the doctor ceased to live.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

The Tyler situation is dumb any sort of scan should reveal he's not Human.

It's almost as if they've never done it before...

Fantastic episode, had me gripped the whole way through. Discovery is moving VERY fast up the Trek charts in my books. Certain stalwarts need to watch their backs

Can anyone give me the TOS/Enterprise Defiant plot? I've always had a massive grey area for that plot!

Goodshape

JoeyJJ wrote: »

Surely with the level of tech on board, surely an alarm would be going off if the doctor ceased to live.

Always an issue with these types of shows. I'm sure an alarm would go off any time someone unholsters a phaser, never-mind shooting the thing. Or if Captain skips a heartbeat. They're basically living in a giant computer, all that stuff is surely monitored 24/7/365.

In fact didn't they make a plot point about firing phasers setting off alarms in Star Trek VI? Useful when they need it!

And how many episodes have the Captain or key crew mysteriously beamed off the ship without anyone being alerted?

> "Computer, locate Captain Picard"

> "Captain Picard is not onboard"


Totally ridiculous. Like contemporary set shows in which mobile phones suddenly cease to exist when it's convenient to the story.

Necessary for there to be any drama at all though. Can't get too hung about it tbh.