Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

fritzelly

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

Needed a laugh this morning

hal9550

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

I think the idea is there was a tyler.. and they killed him after either draining his mind of memories.. or interogating him for months to get everything he knows.. personally the former makes sense

My reason for thinking this is

• Starfleet would obviously have checked to see if there was a Ltn Ash Tyler on the ship he claimed to be from
• There would have been red flags if he just 'appeared' with no history in files

CramCycle

I can't remember the docs exact descriptions but could they have taken tylers organs etc. to help fool sensors. Maybe there is a level of compatibility.

ezra_

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

It has been done before;

seamus

I think the Voq/Tyler think is more that they surgically altered Voq to look like Tyler (hence crushed bones, scarred organs, etc) and then used some kind of process to "overlay" Tyler's memories into Voq.

The doctor mentions that they have done all sorts of "Manchurian" tests on him - tests designed to detect if he's been brainwashed or otherwise has a hostile foreign consciousness waiting to take over.

But if Tyler is the "foreign" consciousness, these tests won't pick it up.

Most likely the flashbacks that we're seeing are a result of the two consciousnesses "blending". The parts where he's having sex with L'rel are Voq's memories, the torture and cutting are Ash's memories. But Ash's personality assumes it was all him.

pixelburp

Yeah, the female Klingon (whose name escapes me) was a bit confused herself, acknowledging that something had gone wrong; so I suspect she underestimated the strength of Tylers consciousness, which is now mostly dominant, or at the very least merged with Voq. Would make sense a Klingon would presume a squishy human mind was no match for a Klingon warrior's own.

Notwithstanding the minutiae of how easily he was allowed into the Discovery crew or remained undetected, I've found Tyler a pretty interesting character: I think we all assumed there'd be some twist about him, presuming he was a spy or double-agent, but he has shown himself to be a decently charismatic presence in any case, and the whole subject of PTSD has been deftly handled too. It'll be intriguing to know where they go with him, and how much of Voq (or his agenda) will be allowed to surface. Obviously he'll have to account for killing the Doctor.

meep

pixelburp wrote: »

I wonder what a person not passingly knowledgeable of Star Trek made of all that; the Mirror Universe is a bit of a Trek tradition at this stage, and while Discovery is arguably the first since the Original Series to take it vaguely seriously, it's still a concept with a lot of canon baggage & distinctly melodramatic tone. I could imagine the casual viewer being a bit lost with all the chatter about the Defiant, and found the whole Terran Empire structure a bit silly compared with the overall tone of Discovery so far.

So I've watched Trek on a casual basis for 30 odd years (TNG was 'my' trek). Watched a lot of Voyager, no DS9 and some Enterprise. AT bit of ToS. No real recollection of of previous Mirror universe episodes. Big Sci-Fi fan. I guess I fit your specification?

Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot. Didn't have any prescience around the fate of the doctor. and doubt those claiming so. It made complete sense in retrospect but I didn't find it lazy in any way and think the handling of the emergence of the klingon/human character is working well. (I do have an ability to suspend disbelife and go with the overall story and not nitpick things to death)

However, even without nitpicking, the one thing that jarred withme were the Terrans (not recalling having encountered them previosuly)

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

Again though, I'm happy to suspend this and go with the flow. I'm hoping they explore alt-universe Discovery and how Cptn. Killy is getting on with the federation.

CramCycle

More interesting to see as well if Tyler does win out consciousnesses wise.

If the crew find out, and they will, even if he "becomes" Tyler, he is not really him, he will never be trusted. He himself will know he is not himself, what repercussions will this have on him psychologically. There are some options for some truly interesting and dark philosophical questions.

Bacchus

meep wrote: »

I'm hoping they explore alt-universe Discovery and how Cptn. Killy is getting on with the federation.

I hope that was intentional

CramCycle

Bacchus wrote: »

I hope that was intentional

nickname given in the episode, tilly calls it silly :pac:

I can't imagine though, the laughter and histerics if they met another federation ship, announces one of her titles, the other captain and crew would die laughing.

Greyjoy

pixelburp wrote: »

Notwithstanding the minutiae of how easily he was allowed into the Discovery crew or remained undetected, I've found Tyler a pretty interesting character: I think we all assumed there'd be some twist about him, presuming he was a spy or double-agent, but he has shown himself to be a decently charismatic presence in any case, and the whole subject of PTSD has been deftly handled too. It'll be intriguing to know where they go with him, and how much of Voq (or his agenda) will be allowed to surface. Obviously he'll have to account for killing the Doctor.

It feels like Tyler would have been a more interesting character without the twist of the Voq 'sleeper agent'. It would have allowed his character to develop more and struggle with PTSD. One way or another they'll have to resolve his storyline this season. If he remains undetected after killing the doctor it will just make the rest of the crew look like fools.

c.p.w.g.w

Is anyone else having trouble with netflix, the latest episode isn't showing on my list?

Evade

meep wrote: »

However, even without nitpicking, the one thing that jarred withme were the Terrans (not recalling having encountered them previosuly)

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

They short answer is they didn't get over it, they redirected it. Once first contact was made the were new more different people to pour that hate into. It's not that difficult to unite two or more disparate factions if they have a common enemy.

Something I've always wondered is are there Mirror Universe augments and is that kind of tampering outlawed in the Empire too?

redfacedbear

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is anyone else having trouble with netflix, the latest episode isn't showing on my list?

I had trouble finding it because it's not available to download (only to stream) - so it wasn't where I would normally look for it.

seamus

meep wrote: »

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

Thinking about it too much is probably not advised. It was conceived in some of the earlier days of "quantum" sci-fi and no real thought given to expanding it, so there are far too many holes if you look closely.

Realistically if the entire history of the earth has been changed, space flight (in the Trek sense) is apparently inevitable, however none of the same people would exist. It would be a different universe, with different people rather than a different universe with the exact same people in opposite roles.

That said, you can paper over the cracks with multiverse theory - that every possible universe exists. So therefore a universe with the exact same people in "mirror" roles must exist.

But the further away from the mirror you stand, the better you look. So just avoid standing so close that you can see the pimples

fxotoole

I only vaguely remember the TOS Mirror episode with bearded Spock, but why is Spock even a member of the alt-universe Enterprise if Terrans hate Vulcans?

Johnny Storm

Greyjoy wrote: »

It feels like Tyler would have been a more interesting character without the twist of the Voq 'sleeper agent'. It would have allowed his character to develop more and struggle with PTSD. One way or another they'll have to resolve his storyline this season. If he remains undetected after killing the doctor it will just make the rest of the crew look like fools.

Possibly mirror-Tyler has not been converted into a Klingon?

fxotoole

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Possibly mirror-Tyler has not been converted into a Klingon?

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The two will inevitably meet, and his his character will be redeemed by killing Voq-Tyler. Voq-Tyler being the bad guy, and Mirror-Tyler being the good guy.

pixelburp

It would be a nice change of pace if we meet some Mirror characters who aren't all awful souls; as said I'd be surprised if we don't meet Mirror Tyler, and I wonder if it's also a way to get the Dr. Culber back on the ship.

Heck, the Terran Empire seems very outwardly focused, but I'm presuming an institution as bad as that probably has some of its own internal oppressions; perhaps folks like Culber can't live freely, lost Stamets due to the Empire and stows away with Discovery when it returns to our universe.

strandroad

seamus wrote: »

Most likely the flashbacks that we're seeing are a result of the two consciousnesses "blending". The parts where he's having sex with L'rel are Voq's memories, the torture and cutting are Ash's memories. But Ash's personality assumes it was all him.

Why not both: she could have abused Tyler (he remembered it before Voq surfaced) and had a thing with Voq. She's the link between them anyway.

CramCycle wrote: »

More interesting to see as well if Tyler does win out consciousnesses wise.

If the crew find out, and they will, even if he "becomes" Tyler, he is not really him, he will never be trusted. He himself will know he is not himself, what repercussions will this have on him psychologically. There are some options for some truly interesting and dark philosophical questions.

He'll die either way. If Voq dominates, he'll be killed eventually. If Tyler dominates, he'll die in a sacrifice of sorts - it was weird enough to see Michael getting it on with the man who ate her captain once...

CramCycle

fxotoole wrote: »

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The two will inevitably meet, and his his character will be redeemed by killing Voq-Tyler. Voq-Tyler being the bad guy, and Mirror-Tyler being the good guy.

But there is nothing suggesting all mirror people are bad versions, T'Pol seemed good. Mirror Tyler could be an asshole, security officer to the emperor or could be a good guy. It really depends on how much they want to keep the actor on I suppose but i imagine they won't and if they do, the mirror won't return to our universe.

jasonb

Quick question... If I'm right, the plan was for Michael to get on the Shenzhou, and use her access there to get info on the Defiant. Discovery was to stay close and they were to beam out as soon as they had what they need.

However, after she kills the current Captain of the Shenzhou, they then go to warp (what happened to 'staying close'?) which I'm guessing was on her command (she is now the Captain after all) and leaves the Discovery behind. And she somehow is unable to get the files she wants, as she never gets a min alone? And when she finally gets time alone in her quarters, she spends it with Tyler, not looking for the info on the Defiant.

So, what the hell happened to the plan?

CramCycle

jasonb wrote: »

So, what the hell happened to the plan?

Did they not go to Warp together?

jasonb

CramCycle wrote: »

Did they not go to Warp together?

Not that we see. I just re-watched it, she kills the guy (and where the hell was Tyler for that, as ‘every Captain has a personal guard’?), goes onto the bridge, they all clap, she sits down, says ‘All Hail The Empire’ and then they go to warp and the Discovery doesn’t.

It then cuts to what is meant to be the end of the day, and she’s just got back to her quarters, apparently never having any time to look for the Defiant files.

Of course, as far as the Shenzhou are concerned, there’s no reason for them to hang around, they’ve got Michael and Lorca back, so going to warp makes sense. So I guess we just assume that Discovery is following them from a distance or something? I can’t remember in this timeline, does ship to ship transport during warp exist or not?

farmerwifelet

Really dont like the michael character the most emotional vulcan ever. It is wrecking my head she is always angry or crying. Where is the ol vulcan stoicism. And lets shag while our captain is being tortured. Once the doc and hubby stammis started talking about how they were going to the opera together I knew one of them was toast.

Goodshape

farmerwifelet wrote: »

Really dont like the michael character the most emotional vulcan ever.

She's not Vulcan, she's a human who was raised in Vulcan.

farmerwifelet

Goodshape wrote: »

She's not Vulcan, she's a human who was raised in Vulcan.

Was she not half vulcan? Maybe I am wrong but I though they said one of her parents was vulcan? At least if she was human it would explain all the blubbing and anger issues.

strandroad

farmerwifelet wrote: »

Was she not half vulcan? Maybe I am wrong but I though they said one of her parents was vulcan? At least if she was human it would explain all the blubbing and anger issues.

No, she was adopted. It's Spock who was half Vulcan, she was raised by his parents.

farmerwifelet

Ah ok that is better I thought she was the crappest vulcan ever.

corkie

Mirror, Mirror: A Guide to Star Trek’s Twisted Mirror Universe




Tilly sure looked hot in this episode.


Re-watched Episodes S04E18 and S04E19 of ST: Enterprise to gain some context for the show.

Edit: -
Star Trek Continues in Episode 3, also did a good sequel to the original TOS mirror episode.