Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [ SPOILERS ]

Mitch Connor · 09-01-2018 5:27pm

JoeyJJ wrote: »

Was decent enough.

Surely with the level of tech on board, surely an alarm would be going off if the doctor ceased to live.

The doctor and the klingon in the brig stuff just defies belief imo - sure Tyler is head of security but surely to feck there is some system in place to keep an active eye on whats going on.

Johnny Storm · 09-01-2018 5:44pm

Another thing that kind of defies belief is - how have both Lorca (clearly no fool) and Burnham (very smart and well trained even if a bit naive) both been so easily fooled by a Klingon infiltrator ?

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2018 5:45pm

Inviere wrote: »

Can anyone give me the TOS/Enterprise Defiant plot? I've always had a massive grey area for that plot!

Short version (as I recall)

The Constitution-class Defiant is caught in a spatial anomaly that ultimately leaves it in the Mirror Universe, 100 years in the past (ENT's time)

It's found/salvaged by the Tholians who start stripping it to study the technology. The Mirror version of Archer learns about this and stages a mutiny to seize control of the NX ISS Enterprise in order to steal the Defiant and use it to gain control over the Empire

While he manages to get his hands on the ship, he's betrayed in the end by Hoshi who poisons him and takes the ship for herself, declaring herself Empress of the Terran Empire

100 years-ish later, the USS Discovery finds itself in the same Mirror Universe and learns of the above events....

.. to be continued!

Vicxas · 09-01-2018 5:47pm

Kinda wish they'd stay in

Space Nazi Federation, reminds me of the mirror universe from DS9

Optimus Prime · 09-01-2018 5:49pm

Vicxas wrote: »

Kinda wish they'd stay in
Space Nazi Federation, reminds me of the mirror universe from DS9

Its the same mirror universe, unless i missed something!

_Kaiser_ · 09-01-2018 5:55pm

Vicxas wrote: »

Kinda wish they'd stay in
Space Nazi Federation, reminds me of the mirror universe from DS9

I never liked what they did with the DS9 MU plot to be honest. They turned it into a vehicle for the actors to just go wild for the episode.

IDW however have recently released a series of graphic novels in the same timeframe that is based on the Empire not being completely wiped out after all, but pushed back to Earth/Sol/Sector 001 (much as how the Breen and Dominion were pushed back to Cardassia Prime in the finalé)

Anyway, in this series, the Mirror Picard and his crew manage learn about a new advanced starship that could well turn the tide against the Alliance - in the right hands!

It's well worth a read!

TheIrishGrover · 09-01-2018 6:11pm

As I said in a previous thread, I'm not a fan of the mirror universe. I thought it was way too camp and was overused in DS9. However I did believe that Discovery could give us an interesting twist on it.
It's still pretty camp but I do like their take. Overall that was a really strong episode.

Liked

I was NOT expecting the doc. Not like that. There was no build up. It was very well done. Going to miss him though. Thought he was a very good character and his relationship with the engineer was nice and understated and believable.
Captain Killy - "Oh that's just lazy"
Lorca smashing his face off the turbolift wall
I like how he genuinely seems as concerned as everyone else about the nature of the Empire. I mean it pretty much dispells the theory that he is from the mirror universe (Unless they do a double switch )
Lorca's accent
I also like how the big twist isn't that "OMG, he's VOQ!!!" They are handling that right.: It's a case of "Yeah, of course he is. Now HE has to figure it out"

Didn't like/Meh

Nothing I actively didn't like but the Mirror universe is still a wee bit camp. But that's a minor point and just my own opinion
Mirror Montage. How quickly were they able to replicate all that gear?

seamus · 09-01-2018 6:14pm

Goodshape wrote: »

Totally ridiculous. Like contemporary set shows in which mobile phones suddenly cease to exist when it's convenient to the story.

Necessary for there to be any drama at all though. Can't get too hung about it tbh.

To be fair the whole "cannot detect problems on board" thing is at least consistent. People frequently collapse/die/disappear and the show is consistent in not raising alarms about it.

If one wanted to retcon it, you could say that there's an ethical issue with monitoring people 24/7/365 and the federation have chosen in the interests of privacy not to do it.

But even things like masking the human to "look" like Klingons on board the Klingon ship - the ship would still detect the existence of two new beings and tell someone about it.

Like transporters, we have to ignore these plot holes for the sake of the drama.

CramCycle · 09-01-2018 6:26pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Didn't like/Meh
Nothing I actively didn't like but the Mirror universe is still a wee bit camp. But that's a minor point and just my own opinion

Mirror Montage. How quickly were they able to replicate all that gear?

On the camp note, the two issues for me, and they were minor. First the captain standing in front of the screen and declaring what is happening. It was either we want a nod to the 60s style of TV or they just couldn't figure out a good way to bring it up in a short time period. If he is upto something, it seems weird he would just jump up and declare it.

Second, the bridge turning and doing the salute, jebus, that not only looks awful but will grate quickly.

Goodshape · 09-01-2018 6:41pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

[*]I also like how the big twist isn't that "OMG, he's KOR!!!" They are handling that right.: It's a case of "Yeah, of course he is. Now HE has to figure it out"

You mean Voq, right? Or did I really miss something?

I like how they seem to be handling that now too though. If they ever did want a big reveal... well, people copped on and they can't help that. The more "now he finds out" style reveal was handled well in this episode.

Evade · 09-01-2018 7:00pm

Inviere wrote: »

It's almost as if they've never done it before...

I'm not sure what your point is here. McCoy did one tricorder scan of Darvin which revealed he was a Klingon. Here multiple scans have been done of Tyler and it didn't come up.

If he was a cardassian agent it would be believable but after that hamfisted klingon surgery not so much.

flazio · 09-01-2018 7:05pm

Do I take it that when the Shenzou made hologram contact with Discovery, the Shenzou captain could only see Captain Tilly, Burnham and Lorca and not the entire bridge? Else he might have questioned why his helm operator was in two places at once.

I also like to think that Lorca picked that accent for chief engineer because he has come into contact with Montgomery Scott at some stage in his career.

Goodshape · 09-01-2018 7:08pm

Evade wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is here. McCoy did one tricorder scan of Darvin which revealed he was a Klingon. Here multiple scans have been done of Tyler and it didn't come up.

And in Turnabout Intruder it's claimed that "Your world of starship captains doesn’t admit women".

Yet we have Captain Georgiou and Admiral Cornwell in Star Trek Discovery.

Madness.

Evade · 09-01-2018 7:33pm

I'm not the one that brought up continuity this time but that aside, does anyone really buy that the klingon hack and slash surgery could actually fool a Starfleet doctor?

Goodshape · 09-01-2018 7:47pm

Continuity aside – no, that seemed like the silliest of explanations. They cracked his bones and put them back together in human-order? Undetectable? Hrm.

Maybe there's a little more to it. Or maybe they'll just skip over the details.

AtomicHorror · 09-01-2018 8:14pm

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Since, in the TOS era:
- there is no spore drive
- they can not penetrate cloaking fields
- they have no pre-knowledge of the Mirror Universe

... could this possibly mean that the Disco is not going to make it back to our universe?
Of if they do their memories will have been wiped or maybe there is some vitally important reason why they cannot share their knowledge?

Or, like Defiant, they emerge at a different timepoint. After TOS era perhaps?

AMKC · 09-01-2018 9:07pm

Evade wrote: »

The Empire seems to be more advanced anyway. The Imperial NX class ships in in a Mirror Darkly were already more advanced than their Prime Universe counterparts. They had shields and could surpass warp 5 safely. It does make a little sense since war has a tendency to accelerate technological progress if you manage to not kill everyone in the process.

It's possible that Hoshi did what Archer wanted and kept the Defiant for herself and didn't let anyone study so she could keep that tactical advantage.

They had shields and could surpass warp 5 safely.

I don,t think going past Warp 5 or anyone warp speed while getting radiation poisoning would be more advanced.

Remember Trip said each time they go to warp it took 10 years of his life so he would be doing well to get to 40.

Yes they might have more weapons and shields but there knowledge on how to build the warp engine the right way and safely was not there.
Its things like that the Vulcans helped with even if they did slow progress where as in the Mirror Universe the Terrans sand the Empire have had to try and reverse engineer it and its obviously not done right.

Evade · 09-01-2018 9:11pm

AMKC wrote: »

They had shields and could surpass warp 5 safely.

I don,t think going past Warp 5 or anyone warp speed while getting radiation poisoning would be more advanced.

Remember Trip said each time they go to warp it took 10 years of his life so he would be doing well to get to 40.

Yes they might have more weapons and shields but there knowledge on how to build the warp engine the right way and safely was not there.
Its things like that the Vulcans helped with even if they did slow progress where as in the Mirror Universe the Terrans sand the Empire have had to try and reverse engineer it and its obviously not done right.

Good point.

Yggr of Asgard · 09-01-2018 9:57pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

Just going my your comments in the other thread. I must ask how you though the doctors death was evident weeks ago? I can’t believe anyone saw that coming?

Well it was for me, one of the lazy options for a screen writer was that the obvious way to find it out is a medical scan and hence logic dictates that the person finding it out must be kept silent. Couple that with the way minorities are in this show treated equal when it comes to death, it was clear that sooner or later one of the gay people needs to die. They ran out of colored people.

There would have been better ways to confirm the wide spread theory about Lt. Ash than this way.

But that is just my opinion.

CramCycle · 09-01-2018 10:35pm

flazio wrote: »

Do I take it that when the Shenzou made hologram contact with Discovery, the Shenzou captain could only see Captain Tilly, Burnham and Lorca and not the entire bridge? Else he might have questioned why his helm operator was in two places at once.

Only Captain Tilly, considering we could only see their captain. So far it has been this way in Discovery, only the person communicating shows up.

Evade · 09-01-2018 10:39pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Only Captain Tilly, considering we could only see their captain. So far it has been this way in Discovery, only the person communicating shows up.

Couldn't the captain of the Shenzhou see Burnham and Lorca too? It's probably just a case of it transmits whoever it needs to.

coffee_cake · 09-01-2018 11:19pm

I did wonder why they didn't get someone else to do the spores. I know your man is the only one who was crazy enough to get an implant but he can't be the onnnnly crazy one

ezra_ · 09-01-2018 11:53pm

I also like how there is a set up for mirror Lorca and mirror Burnham to appear.

Can't be mirror anyone else on the ship, as they are off having fun in the other universe.

Leaves the writers with decent scope, but prevents all problems being solved 'mirror' insert name here

CramCycle · 10-01-2018 12:08am

Evade wrote: »

Couldn't the captain of the Shenzhou see Burnham and Lorca too? It's probably just a case of it transmits whoever it needs to.

I must relook, I do remember them stepping forward, maybe there is a range around the main target, and any person who steps into it gets picked up. I have seen that in another show but I can't place where. Certainly makes more sense than the whole bridge or them being able to adapt who is in or out on the fly (although that should be possible).

Evade · 10-01-2018 12:24am

CramCycle wrote: »

I have seen that in another show but I can't place where.

Stargate?

CramCycle wrote: »

Certainly makes more sense than the whole bridge or them being able to adapt who is in or out on the fly (although that should be possible).

You used to see the same with viewscreens. Sometimes it shows wide shots of the whole bridge or wherever and sometimes it has a nicely framed closeup of whoever's doing the talking.

CramCycle · 10-01-2018 12:34am

Evade wrote: »

Stargate?

Yes

You used to see the same with viewscreens. Sometimes it shows wide shots of the whole bridge or wherever and sometimes it has a nicely framed closeup of whoever's doing the talking.

I think in a few episodes the captain called for it to disguise what was going on, on the bridge. But I could be imagining that.

My memory is getting shoddy.

AMKC · 10-01-2018 12:44am

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

Well it was for me, one of the lazy options for a screen writer was that the obvious way to find it out is a medical scan and hence logic dictates that the person finding it out must be kept silent. Couple that with the way minorities are in this show treated equal when it comes to death, it was clear that sooner or later one of the gay people needs to die. They ran out of colored people.

There would have been better ways to confirm the wide spread theory about Lt. Ash than this way.

But that is just my opinion.

I also seen the Doctor getting killed. It was so obvious nothing surprising about it. Overall it was on ok episode first half was boring second half a bit better the mirror uniforms were cool and Captain Tilly was cool. I was also cool to have the Senzhou back and get an idea of what a Constitution class ship looks like in this reality.

I do however think that having to do a mirror universe episode so early in the series was very lazy as if they had no other ideas so just said hey lets do 1 or 5 whatever in the mirror universe. Might have been better to wait till the 3rd or 4th season before going there. It was not a bad episode just a pity its so soon in the series.

AtomicHorror · 10-01-2018 1:55am

I find it remarkable how many people are claiming prescience these days. Largely based on the Tyler thing, which, let's face it, millions of people did not think of themselves. A few people figured it out and spread the idea. It fit. Everyone adopted it like it was something that came to them in a moment of clarity. It panned out. We're all apparently psychic or just so much smarter than the writers. Please.

The mirror universe episode was announced months ago. Nobody gets points for "figuring out" that one.

The people who saw Culber's death coming oddly failed to mention it at any point prior to the episode airing, despite crowing a lot about Tyler and the mirror universe in the last few months.

_Kaiser_ · 10-01-2018 7:17am

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I find it remarkable how many people are claiming prescience these days. Largely based on the Tyler thing, which, let's face it, millions of people did not think of themselves. A few people figured it out and spread the idea. It fit. Everyone adopted it like it was something that came to them in a moment of clarity. It panned out. We're all apparently psychic or just so much smarter than the writers. Please.

The mirror universe episode was announced months ago. Nobody gets points for "figuring out" that one.

The people who saw Culber's death coming oddly failed to mention it at any point prior to the episode airing, despite crowing a lot about Tyler and the mirror universe in the last few months.

To be fair, whatever about prior to the episode airing, it was pretty well telegraphed during it that Tyler wasn't going to let himself be sidelined.

So in that sense I wasn't at all shocked when he killed Culber, especially as the producers/writers have made a point of saying no one is safe on this show.

My reaction to be honest was more "meh", but that's probably partly the above and not being a particular fan of the character, and possibly a bit jaded by pointless "shock" deaths in GoT (which the producers have also referenced as inspiration for some aspects)

fxotoole · 10-01-2018 7:42am

flazio wrote: »

Do I take it that when the Shenzou made hologram contact with Discovery, the Shenzou captain could only see Captain Tilly, Burnham and Lorca and not the entire bridge? Else he might have questioned why his helm operator was in two places at once.

Well Tilly didn’t see the Shenzou’s helm operator, so I’m assuming it only transmits one persons hologram.

I didn’t catch who the helm operator was and why they’d be in two places at once? Who are we talking about?

Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

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Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [ SPOILERS ]